Fernando Lozano | 31 May 13:57 2012
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How to install OpenJDK6 on F17

Hi there,

I was surprized that F17 uses OpenJDK7 by default but does not includes 
OpenJDK6 packages also, like F16 did.

If I have some app which cannot run on Java 7, what should I do? I know 
I can download the proprietary JDK6 from Oracle, but I'd rather use OpenJDK.

I tried installing OpenJDK6 packages from F16 but yum complains they are 
obsoleted by OpenJDK7. I also tried downloading IcedTea6 sources and 
compiling, but they stop with an "internal compiler error".

Any hints?

[]s, Fernando Lozano

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Andrew Haley | 31 May 15:06 2012
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Re: How to install OpenJDK6 on F17

On 05/31/2012 12:57 PM, Fernando Lozano wrote:
> I was surprized that F17 uses OpenJDK7 by default but does not includes 
> OpenJDK6 packages also, like F16 did.
> 
> If I have some app which cannot run on Java 7, what should I do? I know 
> I can download the proprietary JDK6 from Oracle, but I'd rather use OpenJDK.
> 
> I tried installing OpenJDK6 packages from F16 but yum complains they are 
> obsoleted by OpenJDK7. I also tried downloading IcedTea6 sources and 
> compiling, but they stop with an "internal compiler error".

That should work.  I'd like to know more.  It indicates a pretty major
gcc bug.

Andrew.
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Fernando Lozano | 31 May 18:55 2012
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Re: How to install OpenJDK6 on F17

Hi Andrew,
> I tried installing OpenJDK6 packages from F16 but yum complains they are
> obsoleted by OpenJDK7. I also tried downloading IcedTea6 sources and
> compiling, but they stop with an "internal compiler error".
> That should work.  I'd like to know more.  It indicates a pretty major
> gcc bug.
>
> Andrew.

Using icedtea6-1.11.2 sources. Run ./configure without any options, 
installed libs as it complained, and installed gcj for use as the 
bootstrap (or starter?) jdk. Then make.

I everything run a seccond time to get the error messages but now it 
worked. But I did a yum update beteen two tries.

[]s, Fernando Lozano

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Christopher Svanefalk | 31 May 15:09 2012
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Re: How to install OpenJDK6 on F17

I find this design decision very odd, exactly for the reasons you mentioned. Java 7 is, to my knowledge, far from universally supported. I would have waited for at least another release or two before phasing out Java 6.

On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 1:57 PM, Fernando Lozano <fernando <at> lozano.eti.br> wrote:
Hi there,

I was surprized that F17 uses OpenJDK7 by default but does not includes OpenJDK6 packages also, like F16 did.

If I have some app which cannot run on Java 7, what should I do? I know I can download the proprietary JDK6 from Oracle, but I'd rather use OpenJDK.

I tried installing OpenJDK6 packages from F16 but yum complains they are obsoleted by OpenJDK7. I also tried downloading IcedTea6 sources and compiling, but they stop with an "internal compiler error".

Any hints?


[]s, Fernando Lozano

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Best,

Christopher Svanefalk

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Andrew Haley | 31 May 15:15 2012
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Re: How to install OpenJDK6 on F17

On 05/31/2012 02:09 PM, Christopher Svanefalk wrote:
> I find this design decision very odd, exactly for the reasons you
> mentioned. Java 7 is, to my knowledge, far from universally supported. I
> would have waited for at least another release or two before phasing out
> Java 6.

We did think about it, but OpenJDK 6 is going to be EOL'd this year, with
a complete cessation of updates.

Andrew.
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Fernando Lozano | 31 May 15:24 2012
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Re: How to install OpenJDK6 on F17

Hi Andrew,

>> I find this design decision very odd, exactly for the reasons you
>> mentioned. Java 7 is, to my knowledge, far from universally supported. I
>> would have waited for at least another release or two before phasing out
>> Java 6.
> We did think about it, but OpenJDK 6 is going to be EOL'd this year, with
> a complete cessation of updates.
>
> Andrew.

I can understand you wish to compile everything using OpenJDK7, but why 
don't keep OpenJDK6 on the repos as an option, just like you did with 
java-1.5.0-gcj ?

Can I --force installing OpenJDK6 packages from F16 on F17? Won't this 
mess up with OpenJDK7?

[]s, Fernando Lozano

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Deepak Bhole | 31 May 15:52 2012
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Re: How to install OpenJDK6 on F17

* Fernando Lozano <fernando <at> lozano.eti.br> [2012-05-31 09:26]:
> Hi Andrew,
> 
> >>I find this design decision very odd, exactly for the reasons you
> >>mentioned. Java 7 is, to my knowledge, far from universally supported. I
> >>would have waited for at least another release or two before phasing out
> >>Java 6.
> >We did think about it, but OpenJDK 6 is going to be EOL'd this year, with
> >a complete cessation of updates.
> >
> >Andrew.
> 
> I can understand you wish to compile everything using OpenJDK7, but
> why don't keep OpenJDK6 on the repos as an option, just like you did
> with java-1.5.0-gcj ?
> 
> Can I --force installing OpenJDK6 packages from F16 on F17? Won't
> this mess up with OpenJDK7?
> 

Hi Fernando,

No, that should not mess anything up. However subsequent yum updates may
try to remove 6 again and you will probably have to re-install.

java-1.6.0-openjdk and java-1.7.0-openjdk can co-exist side by side
happily -- you can even use alternatives to switch the default if you
really want to.

We just cannot ship 6 in F17 because it will EOL well before F17 does
and we cannot ship a known insecure version.

Cheers,
Deepak

> 
> []s, Fernando Lozano
> 
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Fernando Lozano | 31 May 21:12 2012
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Re: How to install OpenJDK6 on F17

Hi Deepak,

>java-1.6.0-openjdk and java-1.7.0-openjdk can co-exist side by side
>happily -- you can even use alternatives to switch the default if you
>really want to.
>
>We just cannot ship 6 in F17 because it will EOL well before F17 does
>and we cannot ship a known insecure version.

Thanks for the info, I feel better with RPM packages (even if I have to reinstall after upgrades) than
custom-built binaries. So I'll give it a try.

But about the EOL date, I could only find on google an EOL date of Nov/2012 for Oracle JDK, which is the
proprietary, commercialy supported build by Oracle. I could not find any EOL for the OpenJDK project or
the IcedTea project.

My expectation, based on current use of Java by developers I know, and past experience with other Java
updates, is that JDK6 will be the most used JDK release for much longer than the Oracle EOL date. Nothing
prevents the open source communities to continue supporing OpenJDK and IcedTea past Oracle EOL date. I
see there's strong demand for that. So why not doing? Too few people working on that outside of Oracle?

You could at least package OpenJDK7 in a way it doesn't obsoletes OpenJDK6, so if anyone wants to mantain an
OpenJDK6 repo for F17 and beyond they can do so.

[]s, Fernando Lozano

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Deepak Bhole | 31 May 22:01 2012
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Re: How to install OpenJDK6 on F17

* Fernando Lozano <fernando <at> lozano.eti.br> [2012-05-31 15:12]:
> Hi Deepak,
> 
> >java-1.6.0-openjdk and java-1.7.0-openjdk can co-exist side by side
> >happily -- you can even use alternatives to switch the default if you
> >really want to.
> >
> >We just cannot ship 6 in F17 because it will EOL well before F17 does
> >and we cannot ship a known insecure version.
> 
> Thanks for the info, I feel better with RPM packages (even if I have to reinstall after upgrades) than
custom-built binaries. So I'll give it a try.
> 
> But about the EOL date, I could only find on google an EOL date of Nov/2012 for Oracle JDK, which is the
proprietary, commercialy supported build by Oracle. I could not find any EOL for the OpenJDK project or
the IcedTea project.
> 
> My expectation, based on current use of Java by developers I know, and past experience with other Java
updates, is that JDK6 will be the most used JDK release for much longer than the Oracle EOL date. Nothing
prevents the open source communities to continue supporing OpenJDK and IcedTea past Oracle EOL date. I
see there's strong demand for that. So why not doing? Too few people working on that outside of Oracle?
> 

OpenJDK6 will no longer get security updates after November 2012:
http://mail.openjdk.java.net/pipermail/discuss/2012-February/002514.html

A large part of the problem is that we will not have access to all the
security vulnerability information as it is not made public. That will
make it very difficult to fix the underlying issues.

I am guessing that a lot of people who will use the Oracle JDK6 beyond
the EOL date will probably run the version last available before EOL. We
cannot ship such insecure versions in Fedora though.

> You could at least package OpenJDK7 in a way it doesn't obsoletes OpenJDK6, so if anyone wants to mantain an
OpenJDK6 repo for F17 and beyond they can do so.
>

The obsoletes was added on purpose. It was added because many packages
require java >= 1:1.6.0. If 7 does not not obsolete 6, older systems
(F15/16) that have 6 will not necessarily pull in 7 as 6 will satisfy
this dependency. However the package will not actually work with 6
because all new packages are being compiled with 7 which produces a
newer bytecode that 6 does not understand. This was the bug that
prompted obsoleting of 6:

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=817516

Cheers,
Deepak

> 
> []s, Fernando Lozano
> 
> 
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Fernando Lozano | 31 May 22:33 2012
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Re: How to install OpenJDK6 on F17

Hi Deepak,

First, thaks a lot for you patience explaining things you and other 
OpenJDK developers should already have discussed to exaustion.

> OpenJDK6 will no longer get security updates after November 2012: 
> http://mail.openjdk.java.net/pipermail/discuss/2012-February/002514.html 
> A large part of the problem is that we will not have access to all the 
> security vulnerability information as it is not made public. That will 
> make it very difficult to fix the underlying issues. I am guessing 
> that a lot of people who will use the Oracle JDK6 beyond the EOL date 
> will probably run the version last available before EOL. We cannot 
> ship such insecure versions in Fedora though. 

I don't understand why Oracle JDK EOF affects OpenJDK. I suppose code is 
commited to OpenJDK and then moved to Oracle JDK as with most sane open 
source projects with a commercial edition. Am I wrong, and Oracle 
developers their JDK at closed doors, and later pushes their patches to 
OpenJDK?

And couldn't / shouldn't OpenJDK have its own bug track system, and 
should't it be the primary one, instead of the Oracle bug tracking?

>> You could at least package OpenJDK7 in a way it doesn't obsoletes OpenJDK6, so if anyone wants to mantain
an OpenJDK6 repo for F17 and beyond they can do so.
> The obsoletes was added on purpose. It was added because many packages
> require java>= 1:1.6.0. If 7 does not not obsolete 6, older systems
> (F15/16) that have 6 will not necessarily pull in 7 as 6 will satisfy
> this dependency. However the package will not actually work with 6
> because all new packages are being compiled with 7 which produces a
> newer bytecode that 6 does not understand. This was the bug that
> prompted obsoleting of 6:
>
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=817516
>
For me it looks like the real fix would be updating the require 
statatement on each package spec.

But even using your rationale, why GCJ, which is Java 5, is still in 
Fedora 17? The same resons to purge OpenJDK6 would be valid to purge 
GCJ. If GCJ can be kept, although not being able to run the java 
packages included as part of the distro, OpenJDK6 could be kept also.

I am used to open source communities, for example apache tomcat and 
postgresql, supporting older releases much longer than commercial 
counterparts, for example websphere and oracle db, because this meets a 
real user need. I can't understand why OpenJDK / IcedTea cannot do the 
same, and have to bown down to Oracle EOL.

[]s, Fernando Lozano

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Andrew Haley | 1 Jun 11:40 2012
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Re: How to install OpenJDK6 on F17

On 05/31/2012 09:33 PM, Fernando Lozano wrote:

>> > OpenJDK6 will no longer get security updates after November 2012: 
>> > http://mail.openjdk.java.net/pipermail/discuss/2012-February/002514.html 
>> > A large part of the problem is that we will not have access to all the 
>> > security vulnerability information as it is not made public. That will 
>> > make it very difficult to fix the underlying issues. I am guessing 
>> > that a lot of people who will use the Oracle JDK6 beyond the EOL date 
>> > will probably run the version last available before EOL. We cannot 
>> > ship such insecure versions in Fedora though.

> I don't understand why Oracle JDK EOF affects OpenJDK. I suppose code is 
> commited to OpenJDK and then moved to Oracle JDK as with most sane open 
> source projects with a commercial edition. Am I wrong, and Oracle 
> developers their JDK at closed doors, and later pushes their patches to 
> OpenJDK?

Yes, you are.

> And couldn't / shouldn't OpenJDK have its own bug track system, and 
> should't it be the primary one, instead of the Oracle bug tracking?

Yes, and that is going to happen, but it's a longer-term goal.  But
in any case, I would be opposed to Fedora doing long-term support on
an obsolete version of Java.  It really isn't Fedora's mission.  Fedora
is all about producing a first-class distro based on the latest software.

> But even using your rationale, why GCJ, which is Java 5, is still in 
> Fedora 17?

Because it's still useful, and its upstream is not dead.

Andrew.
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Andrew Haley | 31 May 16:42 2012
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Re: How to install OpenJDK6 on F17

Hi,

On 05/31/2012 02:24 PM, Fernando Lozano wrote:

>>> I find this design decision very odd, exactly for the reasons you
>>> mentioned. Java 7 is, to my knowledge, far from universally supported. I
>>> would have waited for at least another release or two before phasing out
>>> Java 6.
>> We did think about it, but OpenJDK 6 is going to be EOL'd this year, with
>> a complete cessation of updates.
> 
> I can understand you wish to compile everything using OpenJDK7, but why 
> don't keep OpenJDK6 on the repos as an option, just like you did with 
> java-1.5.0-gcj ?

Long-term support for releases of packages that are dead upstream
undoubtedly makes sense for some distros, but Fedora doesn't do it.
Fedora has a fairly short lifetime, and OpenJDK 6 will be EOL before
the end of it.

Andrew.
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Gmane