gmane.linux.region.israel

moving from ADSL to HOT (Cable)

I'm thinking of moving from ADSL to HOT (Cable). I wanted to know 2 things:

1 - Since today I have an ADSL router (bought from Bezek), I no longer use 
pptp, NAT or any other Linux tools to connect to the Internet. The router is 
the only "computer" connected and all my Linux boxes (and my kids' Windows) 
connect "automatically". Would this be the case with cable too, or do I have 
to go back to having one computer act as a server for all the internet 
connection on my network (of 5 computers)?

2 - Is cable as reliable as ADSL - speed, disconnects, etc?

GMAR HATIMA TOVA. 

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Gilboa Davara | 8 Oct 07:00

Re: moving from ADSL to HOT (Cable)

On Wed, 2008-10-08 at 05:41 +0200, Shlomo Solomon wrote:
> I'm thinking of moving from ADSL to HOT (Cable). I wanted to know 2 things:
> 
> 1 - Since today I have an ADSL router (bought from Bezek), I no longer use 
> pptp, NAT or any other Linux tools to connect to the Internet. The router is 
> the only "computer" connected and all my Linux boxes (and my kids' Windows) 
> connect "automatically". Would this be the case with cable too, or do I have 
> to go back to having one computer act as a server for all the internet 
> connection on my network (of 5 computers)?
> 

If you ISP supports it (Barak does) you can use DHCP instead of
L2TP/PPTP.
In this case, you router no longer needs to do anything (beyond NAT)

> 2 - Is cable as reliable as ADSL - speed, disconnects, etc?
> 

In my experience - far more reliable. (But it may depend on the state of
your local HOT infrastructure)
My IP was last changed ~4 months ago.

> 
> GMAR HATIMA TOVA. 

You too.

- Gilboa

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Shlomo Solomon | 8 Oct 09:20

Re: moving from ADSL to HOT (Cable)

On Wednesday 08 October 2008, Gilboa Davara wrote:
> If you ISP supports it (Barak does) you can use DHCP instead of
> L2TP/PPTP.
> In this case, you router no longer needs to do anything (beyond NAT)
Thanks, but maybe my question wasn't clear enough. In the past, I did pptp and 
NAT on my Linux box and shared my internet connection over the entire 
network. Since I bought an ADSL router from Bezek, everything is 
literaly "plug and play" on all Linux and Windows machines. I have the router 
set up to provide internal IP addresses to each machine and absolutely no set 
is required when  adding or upgrading a machine. It's so "easy" that I don't 
want to go back to the old way (administering the pptp and NAT on my 
machine). So my question is really, can I do the same with cable? Of course, 
I know I'd need to get a cable modem from HOT, but would it just plug into 
the router or what? Of course, the ADSL component of the router would be 
useless, but I'm assuming (and here I may be wrong) that I could still use 
the same router after plugging the cable modem into it.

> > 2 - Is cable as reliable as ADSL - speed, disconnects, etc?

On Wednesday 08 October 2008, Gilboa Davara wrote:
> In my experience - far more reliable. (But it may depend on the state of
> your local HOT infrastructure)
> My IP was last changed ~4 months ago.

On Wednesday 08 October 2008, sara fink wrote:
> Don't do the mistake to move to Hot. It will be the mistake of your life.
> Lots of disconnections,  old modems, bad service, over charging,waiting  on
> the phone line at least 20 min).

WOW - there couldn't be more conflicting opinions. Did one of the two (Gilboa

(Continue reading)

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Eran Levy | 8 Oct 10:05

Re: moving from ADSL to HOT (Cable)

Since you have a router, you shouldn't have any problem connecting your network. Just configure your router.
I'm using HOT cables + netvision and it works fine.
Eran

On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 9:20 AM, Shlomo Solomon <shlomo.solomon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:

On Wednesday 08 October 2008, Gilboa Davara wrote:
> If you ISP supports it (Barak does) you can use DHCP instead of
> L2TP/PPTP.
> In this case, you router no longer needs to do anything (beyond NAT)

Thanks, but maybe my question wasn't clear enough. In the past, I did pptp and
NAT on my Linux box and shared my internet connection over the entire
network. Since I bought an ADSL router from Bezek, everything is
literaly "plug and play" on all Linux and Windows machines. I have the router
set up to provide internal IP addresses to each machine and absolutely no set
is required when adding or upgrading a machine. It's so "easy" that I don't
want to go back to the old way (administering the pptp and NAT on my
machine). So my question is really, can I do the same with cable? Of course,
I know I'd need to get a cable modem from HOT, but would it just plug into
the router or what? Of course, the ADSL component of the router would be
useless, but I'm assuming (and here I may be wrong) that I could still use
the same router after plugging the cable modem into it.

> > 2 - Is cable as reliable as ADSL - speed, disconnects, etc?

On Wednesday 08 October 2008, Gilboa Davara wrote:
> In my experience - far more reliable. (But it may depend on the state of
> your local HOT infrastructure)
> My IP was last changed ~4 months ago.

On Wednesday 08 October 2008, sara fink wrote:
> Don't do the mistake to move to Hot. It will be the mistake of your life.
> Lots of disconnections, old modems, bad service, over charging,waiting on
> the phone line at least 20 min).

WOW - there couldn't be more conflicting opinions. Did one of the two (Gilboa
and Sara) have unusually good or bad luck? Can anyone else give an opinion?
Since this may be a bit OT, you can answer directly to me, instead of to the
list. If it's of interest, I'll try to summarize the opinions I get.

--
Shlomo Solomon
http://the-solomons.net
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Thanks,
Eran

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Geoffrey S. Mendelson | 8 Oct 11:03

Re: moving from ADSL to HOT (Cable)

On Wed, Oct 08, 2008 at 09:20:58AM +0200, Shlomo Solomon wrote:
>Thanks, but maybe my question wasn't clear enough. In the past, I did pptp and 
>NAT on my Linux box and shared my internet connection over the entire 
>network. Since I bought an ADSL router from Bezek, everything is 
>literaly "plug and play" on all Linux and Windows machines. I have the router 
>set up to provide internal IP addresses to each machine and absolutely no set 
>is required when  adding or upgrading a machine. It's so "easy" that I don't 
>want to go back to the old way (administering the pptp and NAT on my 
>machine). So my question is really, can I do the same with cable? Of course, 
>I know I'd need to get a cable modem from HOT, but would it just plug into 
>the router or what? Of course, the ADSL component of the router would be 
>useless, but I'm assuming (and here I may be wrong) that I could still use 
>the same router after plugging the cable modem into it.

First of all, you do not want to use DHCP. The actual name of what is hapening
is called MPLS and it to be blunt sucks. The extra overhead of a pptp or
more likely l2tp tunnel is IMHO worth it, although if you are at the edge
of latency problems it will agrevate them.

Your router probably will work with no changes, except that some routers
sold for use in the US or EU won't. It's because the tunneling host and 
subnet gateway are always the same IP address there and they are different
here. 

I simply can't guess without any information about which router you have,
but a 250 NIS WiFi one you buy here will work if the old one won't.

The biggest problem you will have is that the router does not have enough
RAM for big routing tables, so if you do lots of P2P, it will have problems.

As for reliability, service and speed, the best thing to do is to call
HOT and ask for their business internet sales office. They offer higher 
speeds, better reliabilty and they will come and fix problems a lot better
and a lot quicker than a consumer connection. The only downfall besides the
slightly higher price is that they will not let you combine a business class
connection with basic cable and a voice line for a cheap price. 

Geoff.

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Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@...  N3OWJ/4X1GM

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Geoffrey S. Mendelson | 8 Oct 11:32

Re: moving from ADSL to HOT (Cable)

On Wed, Oct 08, 2008 at 11:03:25AM +0200, Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:
>As for reliability, service and speed, the best thing to do is to call
>HOT and ask for their business internet sales office. They offer higher 
>speeds, better reliabilty and they will come and fix problems a lot better
>and a lot quicker than a consumer connection. The only downfall besides the
>slightly higher price is that they will not let you combine a business class
>connection with basic cable and a voice line for a cheap price. 

Just to add some more to my post, I have a 5m down/256k up cable modem
from Hot and use Netvision as my ISP.

I have had several (5-10) outages in the last year, one big one in September
where everything was down for half a day. I called HOT and they arranged
to send a technican out in about two hours, but he called and said the problem
was with a wide area and it was being worked on, so there was no need for
him to come.

It was, of course the morning my teenage son was home recovering from dental
surgery and I heard no end of it. 

Since then I do have a problem with VoIP. Using a Linksys PAP2 which uses
outgoing port 5060 for connections, some times I get a "tunnel" from Netvision
where it is blocked. Once I figured that out, I was able to change the port
from 5060 to 5061 and it has worked fine ever since. I assume if I did not
change the port, I would have to call Netvision and complain.

It does not happen using a Windows or MacOS softphone, which use a different
outgoing port.

My VoIP provider is based in the US and uses Level3 as their ISP, so I
get 160ms ping times with a rare peak of 180-190, which is well withing
the 150ms latency limit. When I had Vonage, I could not ping them, so I
don't have any stats, but after 6pm on Wednesday until Sunday morning it
was useless.

Skype computer to computer is fine in Israel, but Skypeout is IMHO better
than Cell-Com was in 1996 when I made aliyah, but not as good as POTS.
Skype computer to computer outside of Israel is too variable to guess.

As for download speeds, I have my download speed capped at 4.5m for QOS
reasons, and my bit torrent speed capped at 300k bytes per second.
I often get download speeds over 200k, and occasionaly 400k bytes per second
using FTP and HTTP, and see 300k total torrent download speeds. 

Sometimes I get less than 1k per second torrent speeds too, so it depends 
upon the torrent.

I don't watch streaming video from within Israel, so I can't comment on it,
but streaming video from the US and Asia work fine until about 6pm when they
start to bog down. 

Anyone does decide to go to HOT and call their "business office", please
let me know what speeds they currently offer. 

Geoff.

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Shlomo Solomon | 8 Oct 11:43

Re: moving from ADSL to HOT (Cable)

On Wednesday 08 October 2008, Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:
> First of all, you do not want to use DHCP. The actual name of what is
> hapening is called MPLS and it to be blunt sucks. The extra overhead of a
> pptp or more likely l2tp tunnel is IMHO worth it, although if you are at
> the edge of latency problems it will agrevate them.
Not really relevant for my small (5 computer) network. I do use the DHCP 
server built into the router, but I "cheat" a bit - since I want each 
computer on the network to have a constant internal IP address (makes it 
easier to manage and use /etc/hosts), I added the MAC addresses of all 
machines to the "reserved IP address" list and specified what IP to give 
each. This gives me 2 advantages:
1 - constant IPs on the network
2 - If needed, I can add an unknown computer (for example, if I have a guest 
who wants to connect) and DHCP does the rest with no additional setup. 

> I simply can't guess without any information about which router you have,
> but a 250 NIS WiFi one you buy here will work if the old one won't.
As mentioned before, I bought the router from Bezeq, so it should be OK. It's 
a Siemens SL2-141)

> The biggest problem you will have is that the router does not have enough
> RAM for big routing tables, so if you do lots of P2P, it will have
> problems.
I don't know what "lots of P2P" means, but I don't do much and haven't noticed 
any problems with ADSL, so I assume there would be no change with HOT (or am 
I wrong?)

> As for reliability, service and speed, the best thing to do is to call
> HOT and ask for their business internet sales office. They offer higher
> speeds, better reliabilty and they will come and fix problems a lot better
> and a lot quicker than a consumer connection. The only downfall besides the
> slightly higher price is that they will not let you combine a business
> class connection with basic cable and a voice line for a cheap price.
If I wasn't clear, I'm talking about a home network (and my current connection 
is ADSL 1.5), so the added cost is probably not justified (especially since 
the HOT "triple" deal is one of the reasons I'm considering the move) - in 
addition to the fact that Bezeq seriously pissed me off recently, but that's 
a story for another day 

--

-- 
Shlomo Solomon
http://the-solomons.net
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Geoffrey S. Mendelson | 8 Oct 13:08

Re: moving from ADSL to HOT (Cable)

On Wed, Oct 08, 2008 at 11:43:55AM +0200, Shlomo Solomon wrote:

>easier to manage and use /etc/hosts), I added the MAC addresses of all 
>machines to the "reserved IP address" list and specified what IP to give 
>each. This gives me 2 advantages:
>1 - constant IPs on the network
>2 - If needed, I can add an unknown computer (for example, if I have a guest 
>who wants to connect) and DHCP does the rest with no additional setup. 

I was referring to MPLS, which someone mistakenly called DHCP, from HOT.
HOT always uses DHCP to give your router an address and route information,
whether you use DHCP on your side is up to you.

>As mentioned before, I bought the router from Bezeq, so it should be OK. It's 
>a Siemens SL2-141)

Don't know, anyone else?

>I don't know what "lots of P2P" means, but I don't do much and haven't noticed 
>any problems with ADSL, so I assume there would be no change with HOT (or am 
>I wrong?)

I don't know either. If it works with the router you are using now, and the
router stays the same, then there should be no problem. 

>If I wasn't clear, I'm talking about a home network (and my current connection 
>is ADSL 1.5), so the added cost is probably not justified (especially since 
>the HOT "triple" deal is one of the reasons I'm considering the move) - in 
>addition to the fact that Bezeq seriously pissed me off recently, but that's 
>a story for another day 

Ok, I was just suggesting it if you wanted better support than the usual
customer.

As for the phone deal, it's ok, but there are better and cheaper deals 
depending on what call quality you want, and where you want to call. To 
replace a BEZEQ line, it's a good deal and does not use their infrastructure.

The 012 BEZEQ replacement deal isn't really, they still install an aDSL line
and router, but you can't use them. Nor do you pay for them. 

For example, the VoIP company I use provides a US incoming number, an Israeli
incoming number, "unlimited" (which really means 2500 minutes a month total)
calls to US/Canada and landlines some other places, including Israel for 
around $40 a month.

They have Israeli service and support, and are very well connected to
Netvision/013. I don't know about others, but I have been told they are
well connected to the other ISP's too. Their CTO is a friend of mine and
a lurker on this list.

He's willing to arrange custom deals if you make more calls, want incoming
numbers in other countries and so on. Email me off list and I'll forward it
to him, to avoid this becoming a commercial.

If you have such calling needs it's a good deal, if all you want is to make
a few calls a month or get a few incoming ones, it's not. In that case
I suggest you get an Orange Big Talk SIM, a cheap used phone and leave it 
at home.

SKYPE has a deal for $6 a month for up to 10,000 minutes to one country
and $12 for "the world" (30 countries), but it's SKYPE, which to me makes
it undesirable due to call quality. Note the unlimited call packages have
one included incoming number, but NOT in Israel and you have to take the
package first and then get the number. 

Someone I know did know about the package and is paying the same price for
a US incoming number with no included calls as the entire package. She
has to wait what she pre-paid to expire before switching.

BTW, a posting to a local "Anglo" mailing list about MagicJack turned
out to be astroturfing. When I wrote the guy who posted it, it turned
out he was in New York, never used the thing in Israel, had gotten a
free unit and service and never read anything about it except from their
web site. None of which was in his posting. 

The whole thing also collapses if you want to send or receive faxes. AFAIK
no one has ever been able to use a fax using VoIP over cable here, and HOT
support told me it does not work when I called and asked for advice. 

It DOES work on a HOT voice line, it's not VoIP. 

Geoff.
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Shlomo Solomon | 8 Oct 14:12

Re: moving from ADSL to HOT (Cable)

On Wednesday 08 October 2008, Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:
> As for the phone deal, it's ok, but there are better and cheaper deals
> depending on what call quality you want, and where you want to call. To
> replace a BEZEQ line, it's a good deal and does not use their
> infrastructure.
Thanks for the long, informative post, but in my case, your various 
suggestions are really overkill. If I make the move, it will be to replace 
ADSL and a Bezeq land-line (not more than about 600 minutes a month). When I 
do call overseas, I use Jajah, which is more than enough for my needs, has 
excellent call quality and is very cheap (free to other Jajah users and less 
than 4 cents a minute to others).

--

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http://the-solomons.net
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Gilboa Davara | 8 Oct 21:35

Re: moving from ADSL to HOT (Cable)

On Wed, 2008-10-08 at 11:03 +0200, Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:
> First of all, you do not want to use DHCP. The actual name of what is hapening
> is called MPLS and it to be blunt sucks. The extra overhead of a pptp or
> more likely l2tp tunnel is IMHO worth it, although if you are at the edge
> of latency problems it will agrevate them.
> 

I beg to differ.
A. The client isn't effected by the use of MPLS. (Beyond reduce the MTU
size by... 4-8 bytes?)

B. PPTP is semi-OK, but L2TP? How can you compare the comfort of not
having a dialer, L2TP complex dialing scripts, PPP configurations and
the need to monitor the Internet connection for disconnects to having an
out of the box DHCP support?!?!?

As long as you have a -stable- line, DHCP is -far- better.

- Gilboa

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Gilboa Davara | 8 Oct 21:41

Re: moving from ADSL to HOT (Cable)

On Wed, 2008-10-08 at 21:36 +0200, Gilboa Davara wrote:
> On Wed, 2008-10-08 at 11:03 +0200, Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:
> > First of all, you do not want to use DHCP. The actual name of what is hapening
> > is called MPLS and it to be blunt sucks. The extra overhead of a pptp or
> > more likely l2tp tunnel is IMHO worth it, although if you are at the edge
> > of latency problems it will agrevate them.
> > 
> 
> I beg to differ.
> A. The client isn't effected by the use of MPLS. (Beyond reduce the MTU
> size by... 4-8 bytes?)
> 
> B. PPTP is semi-OK, but L2TP? How can you compare the comfort of not
> having a dialer, L2TP complex dialing scripts, PPP configurations and
> the need to monitor the Internet connection for disconnects to having an
> out of the box DHCP support?!?!?
> 
> As long as you have a -stable- line, DHCP is -far- better.
> 
> - Gilboa

.. And I'm talking about the dialer (!!!) and not the underline
modem->BRAS->ISP protocol(s).

Do remember that unlike PPTP/L2TP, as far as my firewall is concerned
(which connects directly over Ethernet to the HOT modem), I'm using
normal IP-over-Ethernet to connect to the Internet (with somewhat lower
MTU).

- Gilboa

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Geoffrey S. Mendelson | 9 Oct 19:00

Re: moving from ADSL to HOT (Cable)

On Wed, Oct 08, 2008 at 09:41:48PM +0200, Gilboa Davara wrote:

>Do remember that unlike PPTP/L2TP, as far as my firewall is concerned
>(which connects directly over Ethernet to the HOT modem), I'm using
>normal IP-over-Ethernet to connect to the Internet (with somewhat lower
>MTU).

You are a very lucky person. I have heard many complaints using MPLS,
some from people on this list who are welcome to post them if they want.

The complaints come fro problems with HOT not forwarding ALL of the 
packets, especially UDP, all of the time. They also don't always forward
certain TCP ports and protocols. One person on this list fought it and
was told they only claim to forward HTTP.

Most of the ISP's won't give it to you now anyway.

I use a custom Linux system as a router, which uses an L2TP tunnel
and it works fine. If I had to do it again, I would not, I would use
a small external router.

Geoff.
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Shlomo Solomon | 9 Oct 19:38

Re: moving from ADSL to HOT (Cable)

On Wednesday 08 October 2008, Gilboa Davara wrote:
> Do remember that unlike PPTP/L2TP, as far as my firewall is concerned
> (which connects directly over Ethernet to the HOT modem), I'm using
> normal IP-over-Ethernet to connect to the Internet (with somewhat lower
> MTU).

Since in my case (still using ADSL), my router is also ADSL capable and has a 
built-in firewall (I think most routers do), all the machines on my network 
connect to ethernet ports on the router - no single computer is actually 
connected directly to the Internet.

My assumption is that I could still use the same router after moving to HOT. I 
would just have to unplug the ADSL line and plug the HOT modem into one of 
the ethernet ports on the router. Am I correct?

--

-- 
Shlomo Solomon
http://the-solomons.net
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Geoff Shang | 9 Oct 20:21

Re: moving from ADSL to HOT (Cable)

Shlomo Solomon wrote:

> My assumption is that I could still use the same router after moving to HOT. I
> would just have to unplug the ADSL line and plug the HOT modem into one of
> the ethernet ports on the router. Am I correct?

well if you want to still use the router as a router, I'd think that you'd 
have to be able to tell the router that one of the LAN ports is now the WAN 
port, and also to tell it to use L2TP to authenticate to your ISP unless 
you can get this DHCP-like arrangement people have been talking about.

I'm not a network guru, but I'd think this unlikely for an ADSL 
modem/router combo (i.e. I suspect that the WAN port is always going to be 
the ADSL modem and that its authentication methods will be limited to 
those used over ADSL).

If this is the case, you'll want to by a regular ethernet router with L2TP 
support.  These are easy enough to find in my experience, I managed to buy 
one the first business day after I moved here.

Geoff.

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shimi | 9 Oct 21:14

Re: moving from ADSL to HOT (Cable)

On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 7:38 PM, Shlomo Solomon <shlomo.solomon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:

On Wednesday 08 October 2008, Gilboa Davara wrote:
> Do remember that unlike PPTP/L2TP, as far as my firewall is concerned
> (which connects directly over Ethernet to the HOT modem), I'm using
> normal IP-over-Ethernet to connect to the Internet (with somewhat lower
> MTU).

Since in my case (still using ADSL), my router is also ADSL capable and has a
built-in firewall (I think most routers do), all the machines on my network
connect to ethernet ports on the router - no single computer is actually
connected directly to the Internet.

My assumption is that I could still use the same router after moving to HOT. I
would just have to unplug the ADSL line and plug the HOT modem into one of
the ethernet ports on the router. Am I correct?

If you could fit a RJ-45 plug into a RJ-11 socket... (and even if you had an adapter, the unit expects a phone line with a DSLAM on the other end, and not an Ethernet...)...

No, you can't. The only thing you can maybe use it for, is, as a dumb switch between the ports. But then, you won't have something to do your NAT for you. However, if you have <= 3 computers, you _might_ get a long with receiving 3 public IP addresses from your ISP, should you chose to go MPLS route, and connect all 3 computers "directly" to the HOT modem.

This is the reason why people should avoid buying a router with an embedded modem - it works only with Bezeq, and makes you buy a second router later...

I strongly advise you to go the MPLS route, especially if you have a router. L2TP is a nightmare for many, many routers out there (and in general. Do you know how fun is it to have your connections sustain a carrier loss of the modem?). I have nothing but troubles since I agreed to move back from MPLS to LT2P (Why did I agree? See [1]). MPLS was ROCK SOLID - and I plan to go back ASAP.

-- Shimi

[1] http://shimi.net/2008/07/28/et-tu-bezeqint/

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Shlomo Solomon | 9 Oct 22:20

Re: moving from ADSL to HOT (Cable)

On Thursday 09 October 2008, shimi wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 7:38 PM, Shlomo Solomon wrote:
> > My assumption is that I could still use the same router after moving to
> > HOT. I
> > would just have to unplug the ADSL line and plug the HOT modem into one
> > of the ethernet ports on the router. Am I correct?
>
> If you could fit a RJ-45 plug into a RJ-11 socket... (and even if you had
> an adapter, the unit expects a phone line with a DSLAM on the other end,
> and not an Ethernet...)...
>
> No, you can't. The only thing you can maybe use it for, is, as a dumb
> switch between the ports. But then, you won't have something to do your NAT
> for you. However, if you have <= 3 computers, you _might_ get a long with
Now I'm confused. Firstly, I certainly don't expect to plug the HOT modem into 
the ADSL plug. As I already wrote (see quote above), I thought I could plug 
the HOT modem into one of the ethernet ports. I may be missing something, but 
I don't understand why you say I wouldn't be able to use the NAT facility of 
the router. If the HOT modem plugs into one ethernet port and several 
computers use the rest of the ethernet ports on the router, why would the 
router not funtion. Of course it wouldn't be connecteted to the internet 
directly, but it would be connected to the HOT modem. Am I completely wrong 
aout this being possible?

--

-- 
Shlomo Solomon
http://the-solomons.net
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Dotan Cohen | 10 Oct 09:32

Re: moving from ADSL to HOT (Cable)

2008/10/9 Shlomo Solomon <shlomo.solomon <at> gmail.com>:

> Now I'm confused. Firstly, I certainly don't expect to plug the HOT modem into
> the ADSL plug. As I already wrote (see quote above), I thought I could plug
> the HOT modem into one of the ethernet ports. I may be missing something, but
> I don't understand why you say I wouldn't be able to use the NAT facility of
> the router. If the HOT modem plugs into one ethernet port and several
> computers use the rest of the ethernet ports on the router, why would the
> router not funtion. Of course it wouldn't be connecteted to the internet
> directly, but it would be connected to the HOT modem. Am I completely wrong
> aout this being possible?
>

The ADSL modem is a router/modem, not a switch/modem. The difference
(at the superficial level that we are dealing with) is that with a
router, there is a WAN side (the Interwebs) and a LAN side (your home
computers). You cannot plug the Interwebs into the LAN side and expect
it to work- it won't.

Your ADSL router/modem has the WAN side of the router plugged into the
modem internally. You need either a switch, or better yet, a router.

--

-- 
Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
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Geoffrey S. Mendelson | 10 Oct 09:40

Re: moving from ADSL to HOT (Cable)

On Thu, Oct 09, 2008 at 10:20:22PM +0200, Shlomo Solomon wrote:
>Now I'm confused. Firstly, I certainly don't expect to plug the HOT modem into 
>the ADSL plug. As I already wrote (see quote above), I thought I could plug 
>the HOT modem into one of the ethernet ports. I may be missing something, but 
>I don't understand why you say I wouldn't be able to use the NAT facility of 
>the router. If the HOT modem plugs into one ethernet port and several 
>computers use the rest of the ethernet ports on the router, why would the 
>router not funtion. Of course it wouldn't be connecteted to the internet 
>directly, but it would be connected to the HOT modem. Am I completely wrong 
>aout this being possible?

It depends. If the WAN connection is actually to an aDSL PAD 
(looks like a telephone jack), then it won't work. 
If it is an ethernet port then it will.

The usual routers only have one ethernet port on the LAN side, not 4.
It is connected to an internal 5 port hub, so you get 4 LAN ports to
plug things into, but the router part only sees one port.

Geoff.
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-- 
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@...  N3OWJ/4X1GM

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Shlomo Solomon | 10 Oct 10:47

router compatibility (was Re: moving from ADSL to HOT (Cable))

On Friday 10 October 2008, Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:
> The usual routers only have one ethernet port on the LAN side, not 4.
> It is connected to an internal 5 port hub, so you get 4 LAN ports to
> plug things into, but the router part only sees one port.
OK - so assuming I can't use the router I bought fom Bezeq after moving to 
HOT, can anyone say if they've had any Linux experience (good or bad) using 
the cheap routers sold by www.ivory.co.il?

The two models they have are:
1 - wr541G for 148 shekel (or 180 shekels with an additional USB dongle - 
WN321G)
2 - wr641G for 195 shekel (or 270 shekels with an additional USB dongle - 
WN620G)

The second one is probably not worth the higher price. It's a 108Mbps. I know 
the standard is still in draft stage and the extra speed would be useless for 
Internet connectivity. My network is all wired and I very seldom use WiFi  
mostly for guests. 

--

-- 
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http://the-solomons.net
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Geoffrey S. Mendelson | 10 Oct 12:14

Re: router compatibility (was Re: moving from ADSL to HOT (Cable))

On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 10:47:39AM +0200, Shlomo Solomon wrote:
>OK - so assuming I can't use the router I bought fom Bezeq after moving to 
>HOT, can anyone say if they've had any Linux experience (good or bad) using 
>the cheap routers sold by www.ivory.co.il?
>
>The two models they have are:
>1 - wr541G for 148 shekel (or 180 shekels with an additional USB dongle - 
>WN321G)
>2 - wr641G for 195 shekel (or 270 shekels with an additional USB dongle - 
>WN620G)

Note that they are some off brand, so you need to look them up. The model
numbers are similar to Linksys ones, but they are not.

The thing to do is to download the manual for them and look at the setup
instructions for the tunneling protocol you will be using, probably L2TP.

In order to work with HOT, you need to be able to specify on the WAN side:

IP Address*
NetMask*
IP gateway*
DNS servers*

Tunneling host aka Gateway

The ones marked with an asterisk are usually provided by DHCP. 

The problem with some routers is that they are programed assuming that the
IP gateway and the tunneling gateway are the same IP address. This is common
in the US and the EU.

Personally, since you are doing this for the first time, I would buy an
EdiMax router from Office Depot or Bug, depending upon what they have
because you can return them if you can't get them to work, and EdiMax
AFAIK has phone support.

I've never had to return anything they have made, but a friend did and
when they took it back to Bug for a replacment, the person in the store
called them for him.

D-Link also makes good stuff. I had a D-Link wireless router which worked
fine until the power unit burnt out then I traded it for a Linksys access
point. The router, last I heard is still running fine, although it made
yeridah. 

A friend bought one at Office Depot and I hooked it up for her to aDSL,
and it took about 2 minutes to configure. Most of the time was choosing
the WiFi passwords. 

If you can find one at what you consider a reasonable price, buy a
Linksys WRTG-54L, which is the model that can run Linux. You can use it
out of the box, and if you want to get creative, run Tomato on it.

Geoff.
--

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Yedidyah Bar-David | 10 Oct 11:08

Re: moving from ADSL to HOT (Cable)

On Thu, Oct 09, 2008 at 10:20:22PM +0200, Shlomo Solomon wrote:
> On Thursday 09 October 2008, shimi wrote:
> > On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 7:38 PM, Shlomo Solomon wrote:
> > > My assumption is that I could still use the same router after moving to
> > > HOT. I
> > > would just have to unplug the ADSL line and plug the HOT modem into one
> > > of the ethernet ports on the router. Am I correct?
> >
> > If you could fit a RJ-45 plug into a RJ-11 socket... (and even if you had
> > an adapter, the unit expects a phone line with a DSLAM on the other end,
> > and not an Ethernet...)...
> >
> > No, you can't. The only thing you can maybe use it for, is, as a dumb
> > switch between the ports. But then, you won't have something to do your NAT
> > for you. However, if you have <= 3 computers, you _might_ get a long with
> Now I'm confused. Firstly, I certainly don't expect to plug the HOT modem into 
> the ADSL plug. As I already wrote (see quote above), I thought I could plug 
> the HOT modem into one of the ethernet ports. I may be missing something, but 
> I don't understand why you say I wouldn't be able to use the NAT facility of 
> the router. If the HOT modem plugs into one ethernet port and several 
> computers use the rest of the ethernet ports on the router, why would the 
> router not funtion. Of course it wouldn't be connecteted to the internet 
> directly, but it would be connected to the HOT modem. Am I completely wrong 
> aout this being possible?

Shlomo, you should understand that not all routers are made equal.
Unless there is very accurate documentation for yours, you'll simply
need to experiment. Most home/ADSL routers I know have either of the
following:

1. One RJ11 (phone) port plus one RJ45 (Ethernet) port.

If that's what you have, you'll naturally need at least something (such
as a small hub/switch) to connect more than one machine.

2. One RJ45 (ethernet) port marked WAN and four RJ45 ports marked LAN.

In either case, it depends on the router's _software_ whether it will
work in the HOT env or not. "2." is more likely to work, depending on
MPLS/DHCP/pptp/l2tp/whatever support in HOT and in the router. "1." is
less likely to work, but is not impossible: Theoretically, you can
connect the router, the HOT modem, and your machines, all to the same
switch/hub, and the router can (theoretically!) *route* over its single
used port - get packets from the machines in some addresses, send them
to the HOT modem in whatever form it expects them, and the reverse. It's
certainly doable in a general-purpose Linux box, although not common.
It's also not very secure - theoretically, in such a scenario, a local
machine can try and bypass the router and talk directly to the modem,
causing lots of interesting problems.

Now, as I understand, what you have has 1 RJ11 port (intended to be
connected to the ADSL phone line) and four RJ45 ports. This might seems
similar to case "2." above, but actually might be more like "1." - and
as I said, you can't know beforehand if it will work, unless you either
have full control over the router (such as if you run on it one of the
WRT54GL distributions) or its documentation says it will.

I personally have no experience at all with HOT. From what I read in
this thread, without commenting on the QOS issues, it seems to me that
even if it won't work with your router, buying a new one that will
should not cost more than 200-300 NIS, perhaps even less if you do not
need wireless access, so it's not a huge risk, and if the HOT deal is
considerably cheaper, the difference will be returned after several
months of usage.
--

-- 
Didi

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shimi | 10 Oct 14:36

Re: moving from ADSL to HOT (Cable)

On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 10:20 PM, Shlomo Solomon <shlomo.solomon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:

On Thursday 09 October 2008, shimi wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 7:38 PM, Shlomo Solomon wrote:
> > My assumption is that I could still use the same router after moving to
> > HOT. I
> > would just have to unplug the ADSL line and plug the HOT modem into one
> > of the ethernet ports on the router. Am I correct?
>
> If you could fit a RJ-45 plug into a RJ-11 socket... (and even if you had
> an adapter, the unit expects a phone line with a DSLAM on the other end,
> and not an Ethernet...)...
>
> No, you can't. The only thing you can maybe use it for, is, as a dumb
> switch between the ports. But then, you won't have something to do your NAT
> for you. However, if you have <= 3 computers, you _might_ get a long with

Now I'm confused. Firstly, I certainly don't expect to plug the HOT modem into
the ADSL plug. As I already wrote (see quote above), I thought I could plug
the HOT modem into one of the ethernet ports. I may be missing something, but
I don't understand why you say I wouldn't be able to use the NAT facility of
the router. If the HOT modem plugs into one ethernet port and several
computers use the rest of the ethernet ports on the router, why would the
router not funtion. Of course it wouldn't be connecteted to the internet
directly, but it would be connected to the HOT modem. Am I completely wrong
aout this being possible?

I read what you wrote :) My point was to say that those routers with ADSL modems are "designed" to use the DSL port as the WAN port.

This is how it basically works for the best of my knowledge:
1. DSL modem gets synchronized with the DSLAM
2. AFTER 1 IS SUCCESSFUL, The router sets up a PPP link with the ISP using the credentials you defined in the router (unless the router has been defined as "Bridge" and then you do it from your PC)
3. The router gets IP address from the other side
4. The router sets default route to the PPP link

5. The router enables masquerading for all traffic coming from the LAN interface, going out to the PPP interface. (like iptables -t nat -A POSTROUTING -o ppp0 -j MASQUERADE)

I hope it's now more clear on why this won't happen with the WAN modem connected on one of the LAN ports, unless you are able to replace the firmware with your own (or it's Linux based and you have SSH access to tinker with those settings...)

-- Shimi

headers

sara fink | 8 Oct 08:09

Re: moving from ADSL to HOT (Cable)

Don't do the mistake to move to Hot. It will be the mistake of your life. Lots of disconnections, old modems, bad service, over charging,waiting on the phone line at least 20 min).

I don't want to name all the defects. Even their CEO Kaminitz agrees that they have to improve the service. Their infrastructure might be better, but when it is untreated it is much more unreliable. See one example http://www.warning.org.il and http://www.tluna.co.il/companies/company.asp?CompanyID=128

On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 5:41 AM, Shlomo Solomon <shlomo.solomon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:

I'm thinking of moving from ADSL to HOT (Cable). I wanted to know 2 things:

1 - Since today I have an ADSL router (bought from Bezek), I no longer use
pptp, NAT or any other Linux tools to connect to the Internet. The router is
the only "computer" connected and all my Linux boxes (and my kids' Windows)
connect "automatically". Would this be the case with cable too, or do I have
to go back to having one computer act as a server for all the internet
connection on my network (of 5 computers)?

2 - Is cable as reliable as ADSL - speed, disconnects, etc?

GMAR HATIMA TOVA.

--
Shlomo Solomon
http://the-solomons.net
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Dotan Cohen | 10 Oct 09:23

Re: moving from ADSL to HOT (Cable)

2008/10/8 Shlomo Solomon <shlomo.solomon <at> gmail.com>:
> I'm thinking of moving from ADSL to HOT (Cable). I wanted to know 2 things:
>
> 1 - Since today I have an ADSL router (bought from Bezek), I no longer use
> pptp, NAT or any other Linux tools to connect to the Internet. The router is
> the only "computer" connected and all my Linux boxes (and my kids' Windows)
> connect "automatically". Would this be the case with cable too, or do I have
> to go back to having one computer act as a server for all the internet
> connection on my network (of 5 computers)?
>

This is how I have it set up. Cable comes into the house -> cable
modem provided by HOT -> router -> all the other computers. The router
handles the 'dialing' and the other computers Just Work (tm).

> 2 - Is cable as reliable as ADSL - speed, disconnects, etc?
>

Cable:yes
Hot: no

I have lots of problems with Hot disconnecting and very high latency.
Hot blames Nezeq Beinleimi, Nezek blames Hot. I personally believe
that Nezeq is to blame for the latency, but Hot is to blame for the
_hours_ of downtime every month.

--

-- 
Dotan Cohen

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Geoffrey S. Mendelson | 10 Oct 09:46

Re: moving from ADSL to HOT (Cable)

On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 09:23:23AM +0200, Dotan Cohen wrote:
>I have lots of problems with Hot disconnecting and very high latency.
>Hot blames Nezeq Beinleimi, Nezek blames Hot. I personally believe
>that Nezeq is to blame for the latency, but Hot is to blame for the
>_hours_ of downtime every month.

Not always. The way to tell is to use a tunnel from a Linux machine.
If it gets an IP address of 172. something then your cable modem has
a signal to HOT and it is likely to be your ISP or the connection from
HOT to it.

If it gets an IP address of 192. or 10. then it is always HOT.

If you keep track of ping times from your computer to the gateway host
versus something on the other side of the tunnel, e.g. DNS, you can
track where the problem lies. 

Geoff.
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