Ryan Taylor | 25 Mar 01:02 2012
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Fuctional Programming in Qi, and message boards

What license is Functional Programming in Qi published under?

Why don't you all upload an all-in-one copy of Functional Programming
in Qi (hereby known as FPIQ) in PDF form to mediafire or something
like it?  Is there a reason why you have a "one page only" version on
your site?  Is it there to prod people into coughing up money for the
hard copy?

If it's not already, I'm pretty sure if you'll get a much broader
audience if you release FPIQ under a permissive licence - perhaps a
non-derivative license.  You could get, say, translators to volunteer
to program it into their native language or something, for teaching
functional programming in their native country.

And, uh, in this day and age, most young people use some variation of
a PHP message board.  You know, these things:
http://www.romhacking.net/forum/index.php
http://board.byuu.org/index.php
http://forums.linuxmint.com/
http://booru.org/saga/index.php?page=post&s=list  /*Not actually a
message board, but I use it as a free collective image hosting site
for my translation projects.*/

IIRC, sourceforge has offers message board services, and I'm pretty
sure it's free too, since it has ads.

Because mailing groups aren't very intuitive in Gmail.

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(Continue reading)

Mark Tarver | 26 Mar 13:26 2012
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Re: Fuctional Programming in Qi, and message boards


On Mar 25, 1:02 am, Ryan Taylor <pieni.va...@...> wrote:
> What license is Functional Programming in Qi published under?
>
> Why don't you all upload an all-in-one copy of Functional Programming
> in Qi (hereby known as FPIQ) in PDF form to mediafire or something
> like it?  Is there a reason why you have a "one page only" version on
> your site?  Is it there to prod people into coughing up money for the
> hard copy?

There is this weird attitude to money on the part of people who want
everything free and online, that money should not come into it or else
somehow it will work out in some unspecified trickle down economic
way.  The only people I know who had this aristocratic disdain for
money are the C18 French aristocrats and Richard Stallman.  They had
something in common; they both got other people to work for them.  The
first set were rumbled and taken to the guillotine.

Money comes first.  If you don't sort out the money side of many
projects, they will fail.  I value money and have come to hold it
sacred because money is freedom to do your own thing.  If people want
me to continue working on Shen, I need money.  Needing money is a
normal human condition in human societry.  It is not a shameful
condition.  Everybody in this group shares it. Even Bill Gates needs
money; but he has lots of it.  This allows him to be be Bill Gates.

If people want to read FPQi from cover to cover (not to refer to the
odd page online) they should buy it; at £24.50 its cheap.  Nuff said.
Also FPQi is going to be replaced this year by 'The Book of Shen'
which will essentially rewrite about 40% of FPQi.  So I would not want
(Continue reading)

Ryan Taylor | 27 Mar 21:06 2012
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Re: Fuctional Programming in Qi, and message boards

You do realize that I can wget the entire book, and paste it together
with a little time and effort.  Telling someone to pay for (n), when
they can get (n) for free - legal or not - is a sure-fire way to make
sure that no one pays for (n).

Not only that, if people have to pay for your book, and they don't
have a way to get your book (or are too lazy to wget it and paste it
together), then they won't learn how to use your language.  How does
this benefit you?

Right now, you need money.  You also need to propagate your language
as far and wide as possible.  The best way to do the latter is to make
it as easy as possible for anyone, of any skill level, to learn to use
your language.  If you can find a way to acquire the former (money),
while doing the latter (teaching people how to use Shen, or at least
giving them the resources with which they can teach themselves), then
you have created a feedback cycle which benefits you every step of the
way.

So, how do you get money, without necessarily charging people for your
intellectual property?  You create a community around your
intellectual property, and then salt that community with ads.  Think
I'm full of crap?  Look at facebook.  Now, imagine a social network,
devoted solely to learning.  I'm a contributor to nearly a dozen
information collectives and collaborative communities - very obscure
ones, at that, devoted to reverse-engineering old-school video games,
and in some cases translating them into English or other languages -
and I believe that you have something here that is good, and which
should succeed.  But you won't be able to do it on your own.

(Continue reading)

Bruno Deferrari | 27 Mar 22:15 2012
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Re: Fuctional Programming in Qi, and message boards

On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 4:06 PM, Ryan Taylor <pieni.varjo@...> wrote:
> You do realize that I can wget the entire book, and paste it together
> with a little time and effort.  Telling someone to pay for (n), when
> they can get (n) for free - legal or not - is a sure-fire way to make
> sure that no one pays for (n).
>
> Not only that, if people have to pay for your book, and they don't
> have a way to get your book (or are too lazy to wget it and paste it
> together), then they won't learn how to use your language.  How does
> this benefit you?
>
> Right now, you need money.  You also need to propagate your language
> as far and wide as possible.  The best way to do the latter is to make
> it as easy as possible for anyone, of any skill level, to learn to use
> your language.  If you can find a way to acquire the former (money),
> while doing the latter (teaching people how to use Shen, or at least
> giving them the resources with which they can teach themselves), then
> you have created a feedback cycle which benefits you every step of the
> way.
>
> So, how do you get money, without necessarily charging people for your
> intellectual property?  You create a community around your
> intellectual property, and then salt that community with ads.  Think
> I'm full of crap?  Look at facebook.  Now, imagine a social network,
> devoted solely to learning.  I'm a contributor to nearly a dozen
> information collectives and collaborative communities - very obscure
> ones, at that, devoted to reverse-engineering old-school video games,
> and in some cases translating them into English or other languages -
> and I believe that you have something here that is good, and which
> should succeed.  But you won't be able to do it on your own.
(Continue reading)

Ryan Taylor | 27 Mar 23:40 2012
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Re: Fuctional Programming in Qi, and message boards

"I haven't seen a programming language community that works the way
you
describe, and I don't imagine one with the profile of Shen working
like that. Even the "methodologists" sell their books and training."

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2012/03/ff_aiclass/?intcid=story_ribbon
^The collaborative community that grew around MIT deciding to open
source some AI classes.

"Back then he had begun envisioning a YouTube for education, a for-
profit startup that would allow students to discover and take courses
from top professors. In a few slides, he’d spelled out the nine
essential components of a university education: admissions, lectures,
peer interaction, professor interaction, problem-solving, assignments,
exams, deadlines, and certification. While Thrun admired MIT’s
OpenCourseWare—the university’s decade-old initiative to publish
online all of its lectures, syllabi, and homework from 2,100 courses—
he thought it relied too heavily on videos of actual classroom
lectures. That was tapping just one-ninth of the equation, with a bit
of course material thrown in as a bonus."

What I'm talking about is not a new idea.  Like any other social
network, whoever gets in first, and develops the best community, will
have the largest share of users.  Ad income is based on the amount of
attention you get, and the qualities of the people who pay attention
to you - how much disposable income they have, being the most
important quality.  If they aren't paying for school, they'll have
more disposable income.

http://wiki.python.org/moin/BeginnersGuide/NonProgrammers
(Continue reading)

vasil | 28 Mar 00:19 2012
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Re: Fuctional Programming in Qi, and message boards

> http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2012/03/ff_aiclass/?intcid=story_ribbon
> ^The collaborative community that grew around MIT deciding to open
> source some AI classes.
> 
> "Back then he had begun envisioning a YouTube for education, a for-
> profit startup that would allow students to discover and take courses
> from top professors. In a few slides, he’d spelled out the nine
> essential components of a university education: admissions, lectures,
> peer interaction, professor interaction, problem-solving, assignments,
> exams, deadlines, and certification. While Thrun admired MIT’s
> OpenCourseWare—the university’s decade-old initiative to publish
> online all of its lectures, syllabi, and homework from 2,100 courses—
> he thought it relied too heavily on videos of actual classroom
> lectures. That was tapping just one-ninth of the equation, with a bit
> of course material thrown in as a bonus."
> 
> What I'm talking about is not a new idea.  Like any other social
> network, whoever gets in first, and develops the best community, will
> have the largest share of users.  Ad income is based on the amount of
> attention you get, and the qualities of the people who pay attention
> to you - how much disposable income they have, being the most
> important quality.  If they aren't paying for school, they'll have
> more disposable income.
> 
> http://wiki.python.org/moin/BeginnersGuide/NonProgrammers
> ^Open source textbooks for Python.
> 
> http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?topic=1582.20
> ^A forum thread, where formerdeathcorps gives lessons on MIPS R3000A
> assembly language.  This, I think, is one of the most powerful
(Continue reading)

shaun gilchrist | 28 Mar 04:36 2012
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Re: Fuctional Programming in Qi, and message boards

Ryan,

What is your mailing address? I have a physical copy of the book which I have digested a number of times that I would glady send to you. Hope things start turning around. In Lambda -Shaun

On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 3:40 PM, Ryan Taylor <pieni.varjo-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:
"I haven't seen a programming language community that works the way
you
describe, and I don't imagine one with the profile of Shen working
like that. Even the "methodologists" sell their books and training."

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2012/03/ff_aiclass/?intcid=story_ribbon
^The collaborative community that grew around MIT deciding to open
source some AI classes.

"Back then he had begun envisioning a YouTube for education, a for-
profit startup that would allow students to discover and take courses
from top professors. In a few slides, he’d spelled out the nine
essential components of a university education: admissions, lectures,
peer interaction, professor interaction, problem-solving, assignments,
exams, deadlines, and certification. While Thrun admired MIT’s
OpenCourseWare—the university’s decade-old initiative to publish
online all of its lectures, syllabi, and homework from 2,100 courses—
he thought it relied too heavily on videos of actual classroom
lectures. That was tapping just one-ninth of the equation, with a bit
of course material thrown in as a bonus."

What I'm talking about is not a new idea.  Like any other social
network, whoever gets in first, and develops the best community, will
have the largest share of users.  Ad income is based on the amount of
attention you get, and the qualities of the people who pay attention
to you - how much disposable income they have, being the most
important quality.  If they aren't paying for school, they'll have
more disposable income.

http://wiki.python.org/moin/BeginnersGuide/NonProgrammers
^Open source textbooks for Python.

http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?topic=1582.20
^A forum thread, where formerdeathcorps gives lessons on MIPS R3000A
assembly language.  This, I think, is one of the most powerful
examples, because this community grew without meaning to.  Everything
I talk about is derived from my experiences with communities like
this.

http://ffhacktics.com/wiki/Main_Page
^The ffhacktics wiki.

http://ffhacktics.com/wiki/Formulas
^The formulas disassembly index.

http://ffhacktics.com/wiki/63_Dmg_%28SP*WP%29
^An example of a formula disassembly entry.

And, strictly speaking, you wouldn't be selling your knowledge or
expertise; you'd be selling the attention generated when you give it
away for free.  I imagine a non-derivative license would be useful, to
prevent someone else from leeching off you community; or just taking
what leechers make and incorporating it into Shen.

If you're wondering why on earth I'm interested in this - I'm homeless
(still managed to hold on to my laptop), and I'm trying to get into
the local community college, to study Computer Science.  They aren't
making it easy for me.  On top of that, the college will increase
tuition and fees in a few months, but none of the admin staff is
taking a pay cut.  They didn't make any effort to improve the
efficiency of the school buildings (and therefore reduce their
operating costs), but they did build a shiny new recreation building,
so they have an excuse to charge more for student housing (which,
ironically, I can't afford).  All while getting funding from the
gov't, since they're a not-for-profit.

I'm disgusted by these people, and I want nothing more than to break
their monopoly on a diploma, so they can experience homelessness,
firsthand.  An online university - or even just an online community
where I can learn skills equivalent to those gained from a bachelors
in CS - is the first step to universal education for everyone on the
planet.

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vasil | 27 Mar 23:54 2012
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Re: Fuctional Programming in Qi, and message boards

Did Bjarne Stroustrup give his books to someone for free?
Go to his personal site and try to find free books:
http://www2.research.att.com/~bs/books.html

But, returning to FPQi:
you have ability to read FPQi book on-line and to learn, haven't you?

By developing programming languages one cannot earn much money. And for
Mark there are two possible ways to get money to support his work:
1. try to sell his books and
2. ask for support from community.

With Qi he went first way, with Shen he goes second one.

Shen is open source, free (see Shen license
http://www.shenlanguage.org/license.html) and already has a lot of
documentation with samples (see:
http://www.shenlanguage.org/learn-shen/index.html for docs and
https://github.com/vasil-sd/shen-libs for libraries and code samples)

Shen community is open to everyone: if you need on-line pdf with Shen
documentation - please, start to learn Shen and to write book for
novices. After you've learned Shen rather good, you'll have a good book
for novices. And you'll be able to contribute to project by publishing
this book on-line.

But I think that it is wrong to insist that Mark must spend his time and
efforts to make pdf of FPQi book and place it on-line.
There are a lot of more urgent work for him in Shen project.

About community you describe: it is an idealized view, but step by step
we go here.

There are a lot of libraries already. There are several serious ports of
Shen to different platforms. There are a lot of documentation.

Do not forget that Shen is very young project. And there are not many
developers involved in the project to move project to high level with
video lessons, etc, at once.

You may support Shen (if you really interested in) by many ways:
1. Learn Shen and write articles, books, whatever you want;
2. Write critical articles, analyze weak and strong sides of Shen;
3. Write libraries, programs and so on and publish them;
4. Donate to support Mark Tarver's work;
5. Buy FPQi book (Qi and Shen have 80% in common) to support Mark
Tarver's work;
6...
7...
8... there are a lot of ways to help project...

Vasil

> You do realize that I can wget the entire book, and paste it together
> with a little time and effort.  Telling someone to pay for (n), when
> they can get (n) for free - legal or not - is a sure-fire way to make
> sure that no one pays for (n).
> 
> Not only that, if people have to pay for your book, and they don't
> have a way to get your book (or are too lazy to wget it and paste it
> together), then they won't learn how to use your language.  How does
> this benefit you?
> 
> Right now, you need money.  You also need to propagate your language
> as far and wide as possible.  The best way to do the latter is to make
> it as easy as possible for anyone, of any skill level, to learn to use
> your language.  If you can find a way to acquire the former (money),
> while doing the latter (teaching people how to use Shen, or at least
> giving them the resources with which they can teach themselves), then
> you have created a feedback cycle which benefits you every step of the
> way.
> 
> So, how do you get money, without necessarily charging people for your
> intellectual property?  You create a community around your
> intellectual property, and then salt that community with ads.  Think
> I'm full of crap?  Look at facebook.  Now, imagine a social network,
> devoted solely to learning.  I'm a contributor to nearly a dozen
> information collectives and collaborative communities - very obscure
> ones, at that, devoted to reverse-engineering old-school video games,
> and in some cases translating them into English or other languages -
> and I believe that you have something here that is good, and which
> should succeed.  But you won't be able to do it on your own.
> 
> You're already taking a chance, bringing a new language into the
> world.  What's another risk, compared to that?
> 
> ****
> 
> Too Long; Didn't Read:
> I agree that the person who wrote FPIQ should be compensated for it; I
> doubt that the current business model will give him adequate
> compensation.  The business model which will best compensate the
> author for his efforts is, I think, an ad-driven online community,
> which exists to provide a service (learning functional programming
> using Shen).  Such a community would help people learn functional
> programming using Shen by providing videos, podcasts, ebooks, irc, and
> an internet forum - where users can interact with each other and with
> volunteers, and where questions can be passed to the language
> creator(s) by popular vote and moderator approval.
> 
> The secondary goal of this community is to develop a sort of proving
> grounds for features, libraries, extensions, and ports of Shen; and to
> make a group of people who, being trained using Shen, will use it in
> their own programming projects.
> 

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Dmitry Cherkassov | 26 Mar 12:45 2012
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Re: Fuctional Programming in Qi, and message boards

Ryan Taylor <pieni.varjo@...>
writes:

> And, uh, in this day and age, most young people use some variation of
> a PHP message board.  You know, these things:
> http://www.romhacking.net/forum/index.php
> http://board.byuu.org/index.php
> http://forums.linuxmint.com/
> http://booru.org/saga/index.php?page=post&s=list  /*Not actually a
> message board, but I use it as a free collective image hosting site
> for my translation projects.*/
>
> IIRC, sourceforge has offers message board services, and I'm pretty
> sure it's free too, since it has ads.
>
> Because mailing groups aren't very intuitive in Gmail.

Sane. Mailing groups in Gmail (it is how the new people access them) are
uneasy to use.

Official forum would be great. (forum.shenlanguage.org)
Though i am not an expert the forum is a thing that's quiet easy to get
up & running.

What do you think, Mark?

Also, what about some wiki for common code snippets would be
great. That's for reducing answering newbie questions (how to open a
file etc) again and again.

-- 
With best regards,
Dmitry

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Pierpaolo Bernardi | 26 Mar 13:51 2012
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Re: Fuctional Programming in Qi, and message boards

On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 01:02, Ryan Taylor <pieni.varjo@...> wrote:

> And, uh, in this day and age, most young people use some variation of
> a PHP message board.

No one is holding young people from creating and using such board.

P.

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Mark Tarver | 26 Mar 17:50 2012
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Re: Fuctional Programming in Qi, and message boards

I would say that is right.  I certainly cannot prevent such a message
board being formed.  My only concern is whether such a board serves
the purposes of the Shen project.  Certainly 'open sourcing' FPQi does
not help Shen and I think 'open sourcing' Qi would be even worse.  I
cannot see the purpose of the board unless it is to escape moderation
and then I ask myself why or what it is that would motivate a person
to want to do this and what good it would do for this forum.  I cannot
see convincing answers and until I get them I would not provide free
advertising for somebody to do that.   This forum will remain open to
anybody who wants to post any reasonable question or make an
observation.

Mark

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vasil | 27 Mar 10:31 2012
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Re: Fuctional Programming in Qi, and message boards

> Why don't you all upload an all-in-one copy of Functional Programming
> in Qi (hereby known as FPIQ) in PDF form to mediafire or something
> like it?  Is there a reason why you have a "one page only" version on
> your site?  Is it there to prod people into coughing up money for the
> hard copy?

Mark Tarver did a lot of work in research and developing Qi language and
writing FPQi book. And this work was done only by himself w/o any
support from anybody. Why he should give results of his work for free? I
think that his approach "Buy FPQi book and get unlimited license for
using Qi" is rather rational.

Shen (successor of Qi) is free and open source (look at its license),
because it was developed with community help (in form of donations, code
contributions via libraries, etc.).

If you want, you may write your own book of Shen, KL and so on, and put
it under whatever license you want. Or, what is better, you may
contribute to Shen community by writing documentation, case studies and
so on.

> If it's not already, I'm pretty sure if you'll get a much broader
> audience if you release FPIQ under a permissive licence - perhaps a
> non-derivative license.  You could get, say, translators to volunteer
> to program it into their native language or something, for teaching
> functional programming in their native country.
> 
> And, uh, in this day and age, most young people use some variation of
> a PHP message board.  You know, these things:
> http://www.romhacking.net/forum/index.php
> http://board.byuu.org/index.php
> http://forums.linuxmint.com/
> http://booru.org/saga/index.php?page=post&s=list  /*Not actually a
> message board, but I use it as a free collective image hosting site
> for my translation projects.*/
> 
> IIRC, sourceforge has offers message board services, and I'm pretty
> sure it's free too, since it has ads.
> 
> Because mailing groups aren't very intuitive in Gmail.

Mailing groups have some advantages and disadvantages, and message
boards/ forums have some advantages and disadvantages too.

Shen already has its channel in IRC: http://irc.tc/freenode/shen/

For many of us it is sufficient.

Nobody will stop you if you want to start some message board for Shen.

Vasil

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