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david | 18 Jul 2012 22:20
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Help FIle Updated ver 2.61

This is a minor update. Several sections were realigned to streamline some of the menus and I updated pages
on the Mailing List Manager. I had never used this feature so a number of changes were done. The update is
available at http://davidskirk.org/becky/  as before...  chm file (preferred), PDF file and website
facility. 

Personally, I wonder how much the Mailing List Manager is used today. I recall in the 90s that mailing list
newsletters didn't have the unsubscribe info on every edition so one really needed to keep that
subscription confirmation letter - but today it seems they all include that information. 
david

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Jerry | 18 Jul 2012 23:10
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Re: Help FIle Updated ver 2.61

On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 20:20:22 -0000
david articulated:

> This is a minor update. Several sections were realigned to streamline
> some of the menus and I updated pages on the Mailing List Manager. I
> had never used this feature so a number of changes were done. The
> update is available at http://davidskirk.org/becky/  as before...
> chm file (preferred), PDF file and website facility. 
> 
> Personally, I wonder how much the Mailing List Manager is used today.
> I recall in the 90s that mailing list newsletters didn't have the
> unsubscribe info on every edition so one really needed to keep that
> subscription confirmation letter - but today it seems they all
> include that information. david

Dave, you might want to limit your line length wrapping to 72
characters. It makes reading the post easier.

As far as "list" information goes, a proper list mailer will include
the pertinent info in the email headers like those I have displayed
below from one of the lists I subscribe to.

List-Id: User questions <freebsd-questions.freebsd.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions>,
 <mailto:freebsd-questions-request@...?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-questions>
List-Post: <mailto:freebsd-questions@...>
List-Help: <mailto:freebsd-questions-request@...?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions>,
 <mailto:freebsd-questions-request@...?subject=subscribe>
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david | 20 Jul 2012 22:22
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Re: Help FIle Updated ver 2.61


On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 17:10:39 -0400
Jerry <gesbbb@...> wrote:

> On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 20:20:22 -0000
> david articulated:
> .....  <complete snip>...

> 
> Dave, you might want to limit your line length wrapping to 72
> characters. It makes reading the post easier.

Hi, Jerry, 
As a courtesy to you, I'm writing at 72 line length... partly because I received a similar comment on my last
post, but primarily as your request was very polite so I decided to attempt it. However, this is not my norm
and I fail to see the issue. I receive the posts in digest form and my posts are as neatly wrapped as others.
Further, in receiving posts in digest form the options are;
1- reply to sender - (but that bypasses the group so is impolite)
2- respond to group - (sounds good, but the text of original post is wiped out)
3- respond via web - (but that's what you don't like because of how it wraps text) 
4- respond to all messages - (again, this goes to web) 

So, it seems the only way to post properly is to receive the individual posts via email - no digest - and have
email client set to 72 ---  and that troubles me because I no longer see the importance of that. I remember my
first video terminal - 1969 - and it was basically a paperless Teletype - and I respected line length
then... but even Alpine wraps text to window width - so I've had difficulty complying with the request
because I do not grasp its importance in today's technology, nor do I see it in the Yahoo digests. I have
Becky set to wrap at window size as that allows the recipient to control the view. 

Having said all this, I'm not trying to debate or argue the issue; I'm only attempting to explain my
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Jerry | 20 Jul 2012 23:11
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Re: Help FIle Updated ver 2.61

On Fri, 20 Jul 2012 16:22:36 -0400
david articulated:

> 
> On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 17:10:39 -0400
> Jerry <gesbbb@...> wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 20:20:22 -0000
> > david articulated:
> > .....  <complete snip>...
>  
> > 
> > Dave, you might want to limit your line length wrapping to 72
> > characters. It makes reading the post easier.
> 
> Hi, Jerry, 
> As a courtesy to you, I'm writing at 72 line length... partly because
> I received a similar comment on my last post, but primarily as your
> request was very polite so I decided to attempt it. However, this is
> not my norm and I fail to see the issue. I receive the posts in
> digest form and my posts are as neatly wrapped as others. Further, in
> receiving posts in digest form the options are; 1- reply to sender -
> (but that bypasses the group so is impolite) 2- respond to group -
> (sounds good, but the text of original post is wiped out) 3- respond
> via web - (but that's what you don't like because of how it wraps
> text) 4- respond to all messages - (again, this goes to web) 
> 
> So, it seems the only way to post properly is to receive the
> individual posts via email - no digest - and have email client set to
> 72 ---  and that troubles me because I no longer see the importance
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david | 21 Jul 2012 00:10
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Re: Help FIle Updated ver 2.61


On Fri, 20 Jul 2012 17:11:29 -0400
Jerry <gesbbb@...> wrote:
> 
> David, I just wanted to inform you that the "72 character line length"
> is not working. I have attached a screen capture of a portion of your
> last message; ie, the one displayed above. My MUA is set to wrap all
> replied to messages at a line length of "72" which is why it doesn't
> wrap the length of the screen. I think Yahoo strips attachments, so I
> am also sending this to you via the CC line, which is bad form on a
> mail forum but in this case I think it is really necessary.
> 
> By the way, another reason I prefer PDF format is that it is becoming
> the default printer format. It is slowly passing PS as the preferred
> format.
> 
Oops! My error. In my quick attempt to respond, I changed Max Columns to
72 instead of Auto Format Columns to 72. (I should have read my own help
file, which clearly explains the difference.) 

However, the problem still eludes me. Yahoo wraps text, yet the png file
you sent shows serious non-formatting. Is the problem that you're
reformatting and missing lines with no CRLF - or is it Yahoo not
wrapping my posts? That is, is this a situation unique between my posts
and your computer? or is what you're describing applicable to all
persons receiving individual emails via yahoo? All I know for sure is
that the Yahoo digest does not have the problem. Puzzling to me but the
png you sent was certainly useful. 

I do agree about PDF future vs PS. But my hope is that developers don't
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Michael Levy | 21 Jul 2012 02:03
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Re: Help FIle Updated ver 2.61


David,
Why not turn on individual emails and see what we have been enduring for so long.  ;-)
As Becky has no way to expand digests or allow response to one internal
message easily I have never found digests to be of much value. Plus I
like the threading ability on individual messages to allow me to catch
up on a subject in order that might spread over multiple digests.

Back in the day while beta-ing Agent which can extract digests I played
around with them but we found so many mail digests did not conform to
the standard layout and so broke the 'expanding' action.
I also prefer pdf help files.

-- 
Michael

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david | 21 Jul 2012 14:32
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Re: Help FIle Updated ver 2.61


--- In beckymail@..., Michael Levy <mjklevy <at> ...> wrote:
>
> 
> David,
> Why not turn on individual emails and see what we have been enduring for so long.  ;-)
> ...<snip>...
Okay, I set to individual and am posting as I always did - via web - so I can see what the disaster looks like. I
admit to being surprised that yahoo doesn't format to individual mailings but does for digests.  

However, I still feel that current email clients all have the ability to allow the user to control screen
wrapping of incoming email and not put that responsibility on the sender. I have my screen size set to what I
consider acceptable (to me) and emails without CRLF wrap predictably. 

So, I will learn from this test for any future posts.

PDF help file comment: I think PDF help files are fine - and I like the one for Becky - but that's only because of
content organization and not physical file structure. 
regards,
david  

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david | 21 Jul 2012 14:47
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Re: Help FIle Updated ver 2.61

--- In beckymail@..., "david" <dskirk <at> ...> wrote:
> Okay, I set to individual and am posting as I always did - 
> via web - so I can see what the disaster looks like. I admit 
> to being surprised that yahoo doesn't format to individual 
> mailings but does for digests.  

okay, I now see the individual mailing format of my post. And... 
it predictably wrapped to my screen setting - pleasantly 
readable, as I have Becky's window to a subset of full window 
size... However, this exercise was useful. For viewers who 
anticipate that the sender should format the message, I will 
insert line breaks when posting via web, as I have no desire
to offend viewers who dislike long lines. Thanks for your 
patience. - and I'll update help file regarding this. 
regards,
david

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Jerry | 21 Jul 2012 15:41
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Re: Help FIle Updated ver 2.61

On Sat, 21 Jul 2012 12:47:40 -0000
david articulated:

> --- In beckymail@..., "david" <dskirk <at> ...> wrote:
> > Okay, I set to individual and am posting as I always did - 
> > via web - so I can see what the disaster looks like. I admit 
> > to being surprised that yahoo doesn't format to individual 
> > mailings but does for digests.  
> 
> okay, I now see the individual mailing format of my post. And... 
> it predictably wrapped to my screen setting - pleasantly 
> readable, as I have Becky's window to a subset of full window 
> size... However, this exercise was useful. For viewers who 
> anticipate that the sender should format the message, I will 
> insert line breaks when posting via web, as I have no desire
> to offend viewers who dislike long lines. Thanks for your 
> patience. - and I'll update help file regarding this. 

There is a fallacy with setting the screen width for received messages.
First of all, it is a real disaster when applied to HTML formatted
messages. Second, lets assume I have my screen width formatted for 72
characters. You send a message with 78 character formatting. I would
now receive a text that looks like this when I view it:

************************************************************************
******

Then the next line would be displayed, etcetera. Obviously, not a good
idea. As a general rule, the receiving MUA should defer to the sending
MUA's format when possible. Believe me, I subscribe to numerous mail
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david | 21 Jul 2012 18:19
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Re: Help FIle Updated ver 2.61

--- In beckymail@..., Jerry <gesbbb <at> ...> wrote:
>
> There is a fallacy with setting the screen width for received messages.
> ...<snip>...

I think we're in a period of Internet transition regarding line
length. With more people using smart phones for email, the 72
line length may need a review. And in this transition, I still
prefer setting window size. I tested both HTML and plain text
messages and they both expand and contract as the screen size
is adjusted. Like you, I have Becky set to wrap on CRLF or window
size, whichever comes first. Our main operational difference
seems to be that I have my window size at approx 90 characters
and you appear to have yours at approx 180 characters. That 
difference makes you more dependent on the sender to format 
properly to your preferences. I've enjoyed the discussion 
(and even did a bit of reading on RFCs - primarily 3676 - 
which explained much of the challenge here.) 

I think we're in general agreement on the issue, Jerry, 
and I propose a truce... folks are likely tired of this dialogue 
by now... although I've found it interesting...  on the plus side:
- I'll be sure to put carriage returns on all lines on 
this forum that are shorter than 72 so you and Michael (and
others) won't have formatting issues
- I'll update help file (for whatever it's worth) with more info
about this topic. 

regards,
david
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Hans Leander | 21 Jul 2012 19:07

Re: Help FIle Updated ver 2.61

I have not followed the discussion, but isn't there a "standard" for
breaking lines without linebreaks in e-mail messages (text only). If so,
why has it not been implemented in becky?

Sorry if I am on "15 fathoms", but I wanted to ask.

Hans L

On Sat, 21 Jul 2012 16:19:52 -0000
david wrote:

> --- In beckymail@..., Jerry <gesbbb <at> ...> wrote:
> >
> > There is a fallacy with setting the screen width for received messages.
> > ...<snip>...
> 
> I think we're in a period of Internet transition regarding line
> length. With more people using smart phones for email, the 72
> line length may need a review. And in this transition, I still
> prefer setting window size. I tested both HTML and plain text
> messages and they both expand and contract as the screen size
> is adjusted. Like you, I have Becky set to wrap on CRLF or window
> size, whichever comes first. Our main operational difference
> seems to be that I have my window size at approx 90 characters
> and you appear to have yours at approx 180 characters. That 
> difference makes you more dependent on the sender to format 
> properly to your preferences. I've enjoyed the discussion 
> (and even did a bit of reading on RFCs - primarily 3676 - 
> which explained much of the challenge here.) 
>
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Jerry | 21 Jul 2012 14:11
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Re: Help FIle Updated ver 2.61

On Fri, 20 Jul 2012 18:10:31 -0400
david articulated:

> On Fri, 20 Jul 2012 17:11:29 -0400
> Jerry <gesbbb@...> wrote:
> > 
> > David, I just wanted to inform you that the "72 character line
> > length" is not working. I have attached a screen capture of a
> > portion of your last message; ie, the one displayed above. My MUA
> > is set to wrap all replied to messages at a line length of "72"
> > which is why it doesn't wrap the length of the screen. I think
> > Yahoo strips attachments, so I am also sending this to you via the
> > CC line, which is bad form on a mail forum but in this case I think
> > it is really necessary.
> > 
> > By the way, another reason I prefer PDF format is that it is
> > becoming the default printer format. It is slowly passing PS as the
> > preferred format.
> > 
> Oops! My error. In my quick attempt to respond, I changed Max Columns
> to 72 instead of Auto Format Columns to 72. (I should have read my
> own help file, which clearly explains the difference.) 
> 
> However, the problem still eludes me. Yahoo wraps text, yet the png
> file you sent shows serious non-formatting. Is the problem that you're
> reformatting and missing lines with no CRLF - or is it Yahoo not
> wrapping my posts? That is, is this a situation unique between my
> posts and your computer? or is what you're describing applicable to
> all persons receiving individual emails via yahoo? All I know for
> sure is that the Yahoo digest does not have the problem. Puzzling to
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sigir | 28 Jul 2012 13:12
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Re: Help FIle Updated ver 2.61


le mercredi 18 juillet 2012 22:20:22
david a écrit :

> Personally, I wonder how much the Mailing List Manager is used today.

I never use it.

Each mailing list has a folder, each folder has properties, and right clic on a message allows you to choose
the adress for reply. I don't need anything else.

The properties of the folder are must powerful than the Mailing List Manager: you can choose to reply
automaticaly to the adress of the list, even if the reply adress of the list is the sender.

-- 
sigir

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