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JRC Groups | 1 Jan 2010 17:02
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Re: Setting up redundant mailing lists in OS X SnowLeopard.

Hello, Mark.

Thank you for your reply and answers.

On 12/30/09 6:47 AM, "Mark Sapiro" <mark <at> msapiro.net> wrote:

> List members are managed by Mailman as email addresses. They have
> nothing to do with users on your server.

Good to know. This makes setting up new members much easier and simpler.

> If you ignore Apple's GUI and just use Mailman's web admin interface,
> you can 'mass subscribe' members.
> 
> There are also command-line tools for adding members and syncing
> membership with a flat file.

When you mention flat file are you referring to a plain text file ? If so,
what specific format (or encoding) should be used for this file ? How
exactly should it be formatted ?

> There are others on this list who know more about Apple's OS-X server
> implementation of Mailman, but I'm not one of them.
>  
>> Q2. I am trying to set-up two versions of each mailing list so that one
>> version allows attachments to be forwarded to subscribers along with the
>> posts while the other version blocks the attachments and only forwards the
>> text portion of the post. How can this be set-up in Mailman ? How can I
>> manage attachment rules in Mailman and create this redundant mailing lists ?
>> Where are attachments sent along with posts to the lists saved in OS X
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Mark Sapiro | 1 Jan 2010 17:46
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Re: Setting up redundant mailing lists in OS XSnowLeopard.

JRC Groups wrote:
>
>On 12/30/09 6:47 AM, "Mark Sapiro" <mark <at> msapiro.net> wrote:
>
>> There are also command-line tools for adding members and syncing
>> membership with a flat file.
>
>When you mention flat file are you referring to a plain text file ? If so,
>what specific format (or encoding) should be used for this file ? How
>exactly should it be formatted ?

Yes, a plain text file with one address per line. Addresses can be
formatted in any standard (RFC 2822 compliant) way. See the FAQ at
<http://wiki.list.org/x/YoA9> for some examples.

>> I'm not sure I understand the question. You can set up two lists with
>> two different names. Use Mailman's Content Filtering to specify what
>> will be accepted and what will be filtered out. If you mean you want
>> posts to be sent to one address and some people to receive attachments
>> and some not, you can use an umbrella list for this (search the FAQ at
>> <http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3> for "umbrella")
>
>The idea is to have a way to control or manage attachments on a per user
>base. I've experienced this is the past with mailings lists I have
>subscribed. Many subscribers are on fast broadband these days and like to
>receive images and other attachments along with their messages. On the other
>hand there are those who are on slow connections and even dial-up. These
>don't like to receive attachments as they slow things down and take a while
>to download specially when the list is a busy one with numerous posts per
>day. My idea was to set-up two separate lists. Posts would be sent to one
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JRC Groups | 4 Jan 2010 17:38
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Re: Setting up redundant mailing lists in OS XSnowLeopard.

Hi, Mark.

On 1/1/10 8:46 AM, "Mark Sapiro" <mark <at> msapiro.net> wrote:

> JRC Groups wrote:
>> 
>> On 12/30/09 6:47 AM, "Mark Sapiro" <mark <at> msapiro.net> wrote:
>> 
>>> There are also command-line tools for adding members and syncing
>>> membership with a flat file.
>> 
>> When you mention flat file are you referring to a plain text file ? If so,
>> what specific format (or encoding) should be used for this file ? How
>> exactly should it be formatted ?
> 
> 
> Yes, a plain text file with one address per line. Addresses can be
> formatted in any standard (RFC 2822 compliant) way. See the FAQ at
> <http://wiki.list.org/x/YoA9> for some examples.

Thanks. I will definitely look into this as it seems to be the perfect
solution for my case and a way to make it simple to manage subscriptions.

>>> I'm not sure I understand the question. You can set up two lists with
>>> two different names. Use Mailman's Content Filtering to specify what
>>> will be accepted and what will be filtered out. If you mean you want
>>> posts to be sent to one address and some people to receive attachments
>>> and some not, you can use an umbrella list for this (search the FAQ at
>>> <http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3> for "umbrella")
>>
(Continue reading)

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Geoff Shang | 4 Jan 2010 18:11

Re: Setting up redundant mailing lists in OS XSnowLeopard.

On Mon, 4 Jan 2010, JRC Groups wrote:

> This is indeed the case. All subscribers will either belong to one list or
> the other. Never both. One of the issues I noticed when reading the post has
> to do with replies from subscribers. Considering subscribers are either
> receiving mail from Sublist1 or Sublist2 but post are mailed to
> UmbrellaList1 what happens when a subscriber replies to a post ? Since he
> received it from (let's say) Sublist1 wouldn't the reply be sent back to the
> same list ? How can this be resolved  in setting up this system ?

Set each sublist to reply to a specific address and fill in your posting 
address there.  This is in the General settings.

Cheers,
Geoff.
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Mark Sapiro | 4 Jan 2010 18:38
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Re: Setting up redundant mailing lists in OSXSnowLeopard.

Geoff Shang wrote:

>On Mon, 4 Jan 2010, JRC Groups wrote:
>
>> This is indeed the case. All subscribers will either belong to one list or
>> the other. Never both. One of the issues I noticed when reading the post has
>> to do with replies from subscribers. Considering subscribers are either
>> receiving mail from Sublist1 or Sublist2 but post are mailed to
>> UmbrellaList1 what happens when a subscriber replies to a post ? Since he
>> received it from (let's say) Sublist1 wouldn't the reply be sent back to the
>> same list ? How can this be resolved  in setting up this system ?
>
>Set each sublist to reply to a specific address and fill in your posting 
>address there.  This is in the General settings.

But you probably don't need to mung the reply-to, at least for the
sublists. Assuming no reply-to munging at all, the original post will
always be From: the OP and To: the umbrella. Thus reply will go to the
OP and reply-all to the OP and the umbrella, just as for a
non-umbrella case.

If you want to mung a reply-to, munging the umbrella to reply-to the
umbrella should suffice as that reply-to will pass through the
sublists unchanged.

The only place you have a problem is if the member's MUA offers list
reply based on the List-Post: header. This then may go to that
member's sublist only. The answer to this is to set
include_rfc2369_headers or at least include_list_post_header to No on
the sublists.
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JRC Groups | 8 Jan 2010 06:56
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Re: Setting up redundant mailing lists in OSXSnowLeopard.

Hi, Mark.

On 1/4/10 9:38 AM, "Mark Sapiro" <mark <at> msapiro.net> wrote:

> But you probably don't need to mung the reply-to, at least for the
> sublists. Assuming no reply-to munging at all, the original post will
> always be From: the OP and To: the umbrella. Thus reply will go to the
> OP and reply-all to the OP and the umbrella, just as for a
> non-umbrella case.

Shouldn't it be the other way around ? Most lists I either belong or have
belonged to work the opposite way. Reply always sends to the list and Reply
All goes to the list and OP.

> If you want to mung a reply-to, munging the umbrella to reply-to the
> umbrella should suffice as that reply-to will pass through the
> sublists unchanged.
> 
> The only place you have a problem is if the member's MUA offers list
> reply based on the List-Post: header. This then may go to that
> member's sublist only. The answer to this is to set
> include_rfc2369_headers or at least include_list_post_header to No on
> the sublists.

Since I have no way of knowing these details for every subscriber (whether
the subscriber's MUA offers reply based on the List-Post: header as you
stated) would it cause any problems to make it standard procedure to set
those commands to no as you suggested above ?

Thank you for your help.
(Continue reading)

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Mark Sapiro | 8 Jan 2010 07:37
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Re: Setting up redundant mailing lists inOSXSnowLeopard.

JRC Groups wrote:
>
>On 1/4/10 9:38 AM, "Mark Sapiro" <mark <at> msapiro.net> wrote:
>
>> But you probably don't need to mung the reply-to, at least for the
>> sublists. Assuming no reply-to munging at all, the original post will
>> always be From: the OP and To: the umbrella. Thus reply will go to the
>> OP and reply-all to the OP and the umbrella, just as for a
>> non-umbrella case.
>
>Shouldn't it be the other way around ? Most lists I either belong or have
>belonged to work the opposite way. Reply always sends to the list and Reply
>All goes to the list and OP.

This is a very old argument with hardened opinions on both sides. See
<http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html> and
<http://www.metasystema.net/essays/reply-to.html>.

All I will say here is that if you put a Reply-To: <the list> in the
delivered posts, it makes it difficult to reply to the poster since
the post is From: <the poster> and To: <the list> with Reply-To: <the
list>. For most MUAs (and per RFCs) Reply-To: overrides From: for
purposes of replying so 'reply' goes to the list and 'reply all' goes
to the list (Reply-To:) and the list (To:).

>> If you want to mung a reply-to, munging the umbrella to reply-to the
>> umbrella should suffice as that reply-to will pass through the
>> sublists unchanged.
>> 
>> The only place you have a problem is if the member's MUA offers list
(Continue reading)

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JRC Groups | 8 Jan 2010 06:50
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Re: Setting up redundant mailing lists in OS XSnowLeopard.

On 1/4/10 9:11 AM, "Geoff Shang" <geoff <at> QuiteLikely.com> wrote:

> On Mon, 4 Jan 2010, JRC Groups wrote:
> 
>> This is indeed the case. All subscribers will either belong to one list or
>> the other. Never both. One of the issues I noticed when reading the post has
>> to do with replies from subscribers. Considering subscribers are either
>> receiving mail from Sublist1 or Sublist2 but post are mailed to
>> UmbrellaList1 what happens when a subscriber replies to a post ? Since he
>> received it from (let's say) Sublist1 wouldn't the reply be sent back to the
>> same list ? How can this be resolved  in setting up this system ?
> 
> Set each sublist to reply to a specific address and fill in your posting
> address there.  This is in the General settings.
> 
> Cheers,
> Geoff.

This is what I needed to know. It seems this will be simple enough to
set-up.

Thanks, Geoff.

Joe 

> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users <at> python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
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Mark Sapiro | 4 Jan 2010 18:48
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Re: Setting up redundant mailing lists in OSXSnowLeopard.

JRC Groups wrote:
>
>On 1/1/10 8:46 AM, "Mark Sapiro" <mark <at> msapiro.net> wrote:
>
>> JRC Groups wrote:
[...]
>> 
>> I think an umbrella list is appropriate for your requirement. Most of
>> the issues with umbrella lists have to do with people who are members
>> of more than one subordinate list receiving multiple copies of posts,
>> but you won't have people who are members of both subordinates.
>
>This is indeed the case. All subscribers will either belong to one list or
>the other. Never both. One of the issues I noticed when reading the post has
>to do with replies from subscribers. Considering subscribers are either
>receiving mail from Sublist1 or Sublist2 but post are mailed to
>UmbrellaList1 what happens when a subscriber replies to a post ? Since he
>received it from (let's say) Sublist1 wouldn't the reply be sent back to the
>same list ? How can this be resolved  in setting up this system ?

See my reply to Geoff Shang's reply.

>>> Is there a way to set-up user preferences so that every user can have its
>>> subscription set to either receive or block attachments ? This would make
>>> things a lot easier and allow me to address this issue very easily.
> 
>> This cannot be done in current Mailman except perhaps by overloading
>> some existing user option and either implementing a custom handler
>> (see the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/l4A9>) or modifying the
>> existing MimeDel (content filtering) handler to process it.
(Continue reading)

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Carl Zwanzig | 1 Jan 2010 20:49

Re: Setting up redundant mailing lists in OS X SnowLeopard.

JRC Groups wrote:

> Is there a way to set-up user preferences so that every user can have its
> subscription set to either receive or block attachments ? This would make
> things a lot easier and allow me to address this issue very easily.

It might be easier to achieve with user education. Many 'modern' mail 
clients can be configured to automatically (or not) download attachments and 
whether (or not) to display images.  I know Thunderbird does this, and IIRC 
outlook will, too.  And, of course, web mail generally doesn't download 
anything (except images, that's usually configurable) until someone clicks 
on the link.

z!
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Mark Sapiro | 1 Jan 2010 21:43
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Re: Setting up redundant mailing lists in OS XSnowLeopard.

Carl Zwanzig wrote:
>
>It might be easier to achieve with user education. Many 'modern' mail 
>clients can be configured to automatically (or not) download attachments and 
>whether (or not) to display images.  I know Thunderbird does this, and IIRC 
>outlook will, too.

If you really mean 'attachments' and not just things like remote images
linked from HTML message parts, this would require IMAP access to the
mail server. POP3 protocol only has the TOP command for retrieving
partial messages and all it can do is retrieve the headers and the
first n body lines (body in the RFC 822 sense where the body includes
all the MIME headers, boundaries, etc.). Further, most POP clients
just retrieve all new messages on the server in their entirety when
asked to 'check mail'.

And even with IMAP, it seems that at least Thunderbird with it's new
3.0 'Synchronize IMAP Messages' feature is moving towards
unconditionally downloading all messages in their entirety.

--

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark <at> msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
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JRC Groups | 4 Jan 2010 17:29
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Re: Setting up redundant mailing lists in OS X Snow Leopard.

Hi, Mark.

Thanks for your really helpful replies to my posts.

On 1/1/10 12:43 PM, "Mark Sapiro" <mark <at> msapiro.net> wrote:

> Carl Zwanzig wrote:
>> 
>> It might be easier to achieve with user education. Many 'modern' mail
>> clients can be configured to automatically (or not) download attachments and
>> whether (or not) to display images.  I know Thunderbird does this, and IIRC
>> outlook will, too.
> 
> 
> If you really mean 'attachments' and not just things like remote images
> linked from HTML message parts, this would require IMAP access to the
> mail server. POP3 protocol only has the TOP command for retrieving
> partial messages and all it can do is retrieve the headers and the
> first n body lines (body in the RFC 822 sense where the body includes
> all the MIME headers, boundaries, etc.). Further, most POP clients
> just retrieve all new messages on the server in their entirety when
> asked to 'check mail'.
> 
> And even with IMAP, it seems that at least Thunderbird with it's new
> 3.0 'Synchronize IMAP Messages' feature is moving towards
> unconditionally downloading all messages in their entirety.

I just read your post above after replying to Carl's and it became clear
that this is not the right approach for my case.
(Continue reading)

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JRC Groups | 4 Jan 2010 17:25
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Re: Setting up redundant mailing lists in OS X SnowLeopard.

Hi, Carl.

Thanks for your reply and helpful suggestion.

On 1/1/10 11:49 AM, "Carl Zwanzig" <cpz <at> tuunq.com> wrote:

> JRC Groups wrote:
> 
>> Is there a way to set-up user preferences so that every user can have its
>> subscription set to either receive or block attachments ? This would make
>> things a lot easier and allow me to address this issue very easily.
> 
> It might be easier to achieve with user education. Many 'modern' mail
> clients can be configured to automatically (or not) download attachments and
> whether (or not) to display images.  I know Thunderbird does this, and IIRC
> outlook will, too.  And, of course, web mail generally doesn't download
> anything (except images, that's usually configurable) until someone clicks
> on the link.
> 
> z!

The problem I have with this approach is the fact that I depend on users to
do this. Over the years I've noticed that the target audience for mailing
lists can basically be divided into two groups: tech-inclined subscribers
and non-tech friendly folks.

The lists I am creating are unfortunately for the second group. This is my
target audience and I would benefit from making it as simple as I can for
them.
(Continue reading)

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