Re: R: [?? Probable Spam] Re: Release Samples
2010-06-02 14:15:36 GMT
Marco and John, interesting stuff!!
With wind I meant wind modelling, not the actual air you hear coming out the pipe. I mean that the wind supply to the pipes is unstable and depending on factors like stops drawed, wind reserve etc.
Indeed I remember playing on an instrument that has a "borstwerk" ( Dutch) Brustwerk or so in German, that was right in front of me and with certain pipes the wind blowed right into your face. Can all be simulated of course...
.
Satisfaction is something that can change over time. In my childhood I only heard none-French and non-Romantic instruments, and it was quite a shock for me when I first heard a Choral from CF played on one of these "C'est mon orchestre"' -instruments. First I did not like it at all, and was afraid the whole thing would part from the wall it is hanging onto.
Now I like this sound ( and the music that belongs to it) the most. it is even so, that I can get tired of hearing all those notes and splendid interleaving of them in a Bach's prelude specially if it is played with too much a plenum.
About this surround effect; one can also have the Recit on a group of speakers high up in the room and directed upwards. Etc etc.
But because of the many reflections in a normal room this is far not that effective that we wish. In most cases the reflected sound is already the same level as the radiated sound as close as 1 meter from the speaker.
And we are not allowed to have an acoustically dead room in most cases.
About multiple output channels: I guess this can be done simply by directing the output of one instance of FS towards a different soundcard or output from a multiple channel card.
One warning: it seems that FS does not use ASIO but only directsound. Tha means that a lot of the better soundcards with multiple ouputs only can be used with one pair. ( At least the EMU0404 that I use). But of course with multiple cards it is easy to do.
The issue of multiple channels can not be seen apart from the reverb issue. I must say, that having the direct sound to the speakers directly in front of you, and the reverberated sound to speakers behind you, can already give a very satisfactory result.
This is also nearly the way some virutal organs do it, be-it that they use the original reverberated sound in the back of the church for this, and in fact play the double amount of wave samples which is not good for your RAM and polyphony......!!
The nice thing is, that we can precisely adjust the volumes to fit our needs.
Greetings,
Geert
John, your work look impressive and I think that many of us will be very
interested in your release of sound fonts.
When you talk about "playing very close to the pipes" and the spatial sound
effect, I wonder if you - or someone else - have ever dreamed to add to
soundfonts not only a left-right panning, but also a front-rear effect. I'm
not an expert but I think this would add much more realism than the usual
"reverberation - echo" effect; obviously this would require a four (five)
channel output for Jorgan, that could be not that easy to do...
...but could help for instance when you are obliged most of the time to
utilize earphones when you play Jorgan
Thank you for your attention.
Have fun
Marco Rizzo
Tel 335 7164517
-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: John Reimer [mailto:john.reimer <at> exemail.com.au]
Inviato: mercoledì 2 giugno 2010 14.18
Oggetto: [?? Probable Spam] Re: [jOrgan-user] Release Samples
orgel jeux wrote:
>Really very impressing, all that research and work you do in order to get
>a more realistic pipe-organ sound.....
Thank you, Geert, for your encouraging post. Actually, my primary aim is not
realism as such, but rather to produce a deeply satisfying musical
experience. But of course, a certain level of realism is important, because
if the organist is not pleased by the sounds being heard, then they are not
likely to play in such a way that listeners will find it satisfying.
Furthermore, our expectations as organists will be shaped by our prior
experiences of pipe organs. So it will not be a case of one size fits all.
We must leave room for a variety of approaches.
In my own case, I learnt to play many years ago on a small tracker pipe
organ. This meant I was playing very close to the pipes, and the wind noises
and other subtleties which varied from pipe to pipe were inescapable, as was
the fact that the sounds were coming from different locations as one played
from note to note. Today if I can't hear these things happening, then I find
it disappointing.
>Probably you know, that to overcome this staccato effect, multiple releases
>( 3 or so) are being used, But I have not the fainthest idea how to
incorporate
>that in jOrgan.
I believe that multiple releases were felt necessary because the release
phase was being used to supply reverberation (wet samples). Staccato notes
would be followed by an exaggerated reverberation, so lower-level release
samples were felt to be needed for staccato playing. I don't like the
wet-sample approach, because I feel it increases the polyphony requirements
too much. I prefer the reverberation to be supplied by some other means.
(However, I must admit that the reverberation sound produced with wet
samples can be very good).
>Do you also have plans for wind effects??
In fact many of the flue samples in the Earlwood Organ No.1 (and 1b) have a
wind component, but it is hard to hear unless you play at quite a high
level. I didn't want to overdo it. I think it is more effective to have a
higher level of wind from a small number of notes within the octave, rather
than the same level from all. That is the aproach I have taken with these
five new flue stops, and the pipe wind noise is fairly obvious in the lower
octaves, especially as an onset pulse. Also, I have gone to more trouble
with the panning of the sounds.
>Wish you lots of success and fullfillment.
Thank you, and my desire is to bring pleasure and inspiration to player and
listener alike.
John Reimer
--
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. Let's wait and see what Paul
develops.
Marco Rizzo wrote:
>I wonder if you - or someone else - have ever dreamed to add to
>soundfonts not only a left-right panning, but also a front-rear effect.
No, I don't think that the effect you mentioned is enough of a factor to
warrant the extra complication, unless you are referring to playing on
different departments at the same time (Great and also Swell, etc.). In this
case one would use separate channels, and place the loudspeakers for the
Swell perhaps above those for the Great (very hard to do anything else if
you already have the Great speakers on the wall directly behind the
console!).
Regarding the left-right panning, I have already done that in a modest
degree with the Earlwood Organ No.1 (and 1b) in that the notes are grouped
in 6-notes zones (or "splits"), with the bass in the left and the treble in
the right. As you play up the keyboard the location of the sounds moves
across the sound stage. But in the new stops I am about to release, I have
adopted more of a C/C# type of configuration, giving each pair of adjacent
notes its own "location". This is highly successful, giving a very realistic
effect.
orgel jeux wrote:
>The issue of multiple channels can not be seen apart from the reverb
>issue. I must say, that having the direct sound to the speakers
directly
>in front of you, and the reverberated sound to speakers behind you,
can
>already give a very satisfactory result.
I already have this set-up with my analog organ, using a Behringer digital
unit giving very good reverberation. However, I am finding with my jOrgan
set-up that using a good VST reverb gives me a satisfying sound, and in the
interests of simplicity I shall probably stay with that. I must say that
married enthusiasts who have their VPO in the living room can hardly expect
to fill the room with a multitude of loudspeakers, if they wish to stay
married!
Regarding Fluidsynth and the release samples, I can now report that I have
it working, using whichever version of Fluidsynth is in the current 3.9
jOrgan (I am totally confused about the various versions, but since I
normally use sfz, it hasn't yet become an issue for me). The one odd thing
with Fluidsynth so far is that trying to use the global Attenuation Setting
in the Preset in order to adjust the sound level of the release sounds,
turns them either on or off, with no ability to adjust the level of the
release sounds as a whole. I hope this can be done at the Instrument level,
as it would be a great nuisance to have to adjust the level of each sample.
Even being limited to the Instrument level adjustment will be quite a
nuisance, enough perhaps to have us abandon the use of release samples
altogether.
John Reimer
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