Cameron Kaiser | 28 Apr 03:03 2010

[gopher] spreading gopher

I think I'm losing the war on Mozilla bug 388195, the infamous decommission
Gopher bug for Mozilla 2/Firefox 4. In fact, the defeat may be worse than
I had thought because it appears that CPOWs (such as how Jetpacks are
implemented) cannot rewrite content, so even OverbiteFF might not work.
They are conceiving of a reverse CPOW since other protocols have a similar
problem, but the tentative deal Brendan extended in #67 seems to be off.

The worst case scenario has not only core Gopher disappearing, but also any
hope at add-ons. Reverse CPOWs are just concept, they don't exist, and they
might not exist for some time. We need to get Gopher into the core of more
things to continue to infect virally.

I know someone here was thinking of submitting patches to add it back to
cURL. This would be a really great thing. Who was planning on doing that?

There is still kio_slave for Konqueror, but there is nothing for Chrome.

I should try to get my AIR-based client off the ground again. It works,
but it has no real interface of any sort.

We need to get gopher to where people live. Even if we're not the core
part of popular clients, we should still be an option.

--

-- 
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Brian Koontz | 28 Apr 02:21 2010
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Re: [gopher] spreading gopher

On Tue, Apr 27, 2010 at 06:03:56PM -0700, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
> We need to get Gopher into the core of more
> things to continue to infect virally.

That's one approach.  More gopher proxies/gateways are just as
important, IMO.  There are only three that I know of...I'm sure there
are more, but I've not found them yet.

  --Brian

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Cameron Kaiser | 28 Apr 03:16 2010

Re: [gopher] spreading gopher

> > We need to get Gopher into the core of more
> > things to continue to infect virally.
> 
> That's one approach.  More gopher proxies/gateways are just as
> important, IMO.  There are only three that I know of...I'm sure there
> are more, but I've not found them yet.

No, I agree. But I also want to make sure that clients still have the
functionality (at least available, if not included).

--

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Cameron Kaiser | 28 Apr 03:16 2010

Re: [gopher] spreading gopher

Well, this is a little less intense now that Brendan has stepped in and
concurred that a JS Gopher would be acceptable in core, but still, I
think we still need to start planning for when client support gets thinner
on the ground.

--

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Wesley Teal | 28 Apr 05:43 2010
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Re: [gopher] spreading gopher

We need to get Gopher into the core of more

things to continue to infect virally.

I know someone here was thinking of submitting patches to add it back to
cURL. This would be a really great thing. Who was planning on doing that?

There is still kio_slave for Konqueror, but there is nothing for Chrome.

I should try to get my AIR-based client off the ground again. It works,
but it has no real interface of any sort.

We need to get gopher to where people live. Even if we're not the core
part of popular clients, we should still be an option.

I know not a lot of people necessarily use it, but OmniWeb (for the Mac) supports gopher, although it can't handle searches currently.  It would be nice if we could get the project to implement full gopher support.

There's also Mateusz's Windows gopher/gopher+ client.

There's also snarf, although it would be nice to see gopher in cURL too and even wget for that matter. 

There's even a shell script out there that browses gopherspace for the command line junkie:
gopher://sdf.org/0/users/yargo/scripts/nago
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Mike Hebel | 28 Apr 05:58 2010

Re: [gopher] spreading gopher


On Apr 27, 2010, at 10:43 PM 4/27/10, Wesley Teal wrote:

> We need to get Gopher into the core of more
> things to continue to infect virally.
>
> I know someone here was thinking of submitting patches to add it  
> back to
> cURL. This would be a really great thing. Who was planning on doing  
> that?
>
> There is still kio_slave for Konqueror, but there is nothing for  
> Chrome.
>
> I should try to get my AIR-based client off the ground again. It  
> works,
> but it has no real interface of any sort.
>
> We need to get gopher to where people live. Even if we're not the core
> part of popular clients, we should still be an option.
>
> I know not a lot of people necessarily use it, but OmniWeb (for the  
> Mac) supports gopher, although it can't handle searches currently.   
> It would be nice if we could get the project to implement full  
> gopher support.
>
> There's also Mateusz's Windows gopher/gopher+ client.
>
> There's also snarf, although it would be nice to see gopher in cURL  
> too and even wget for that matter.
>
> There's even a shell script out there that browses gopherspace for  
> the command line junkie:
> gopher://sdf.org/0/users/yargo/scripts/nago

Something tells me this is a good opportunity to start fresh.

I'm not a programmer but is there one development platform that  
crosses 'nix, Linux, Windows, and Mac that could be used to start a  
new client build?

Curse my lack of programming skills. :-(

--
Mike

"All we wanna do is eat your brains! We're not unreasonable, I mean no  
one's gonna eat your eyes." - Re: Brains, Jonathan Coultan
Cameron Kaiser | 28 Apr 06:01 2010

Re: [gopher] spreading gopher

> I'm not a programmer but is there one development platform that  
> crosses 'nix, Linux, Windows, and Mac that could be used to start a  
> new client build?

RealBASIC does; AIR; Mono if you wanted to go .net ... that's the ones
that come immediately to mind.

--

-- 
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John Goerzen | 28 Apr 14:56 2010

Re: [gopher] spreading gopher

On 04/27/2010 11:01 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
>> I'm not a programmer but is there one development platform that
>> crosses 'nix, Linux, Windows, and Mac that could be used to start a
>> new client build?
>
> RealBASIC does; AIR; Mono if you wanted to go .net ... that's the ones
> that come immediately to mind.
>

Java, Python, Perl, Haskell, OCaml....

Plenty of em.
Matthew Holevinski | 28 Apr 16:35 2010
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Re: [gopher] spreading gopher

Maybe start a sourceforge project, and all collaborate on a new
client, that's highly modularized. Maybe one, that supports all the
features everyone wants to implement, including all the backward
compatibility renderings of the protocol and new ones that not
everyone else uses or supports server or client side. It might be a
thought to basically with the click of a mouse change the way the
client will display a gophersite, say if you goto a gopher site of
xyz, and it appears to display wrong press a button and render it in
gopher+, or click another button and render it in gopher++, and so on.
That way everyone can be appeased, and with that highly modularized
design, anyone can submit updates to the coding modules or submit new
ones. I for one would not be apposed to many options in the UI to
change the supported ascii formats, protocol differences(relative
term), etc.

If I'm way off base here, i appologize, but a new client from the
ground up that highlights everyone in this groups talents would be
nice, that way i'm not switching between different clients depending
on who has built in support for what... You know almost like
plugins... That way everyone can contribute to the back end of the
client.

Matthew Holevinski

Plus, All of you guys are wizards, so I know it should be a fairly
simple matter for all you guys.

On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 7:56 AM, John Goerzen <jgoerzen@...> wrote:
> On 04/27/2010 11:01 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm not a programmer but is there one development platform that
>>> crosses 'nix, Linux, Windows, and Mac that could be used to start a
>>> new client build?
>>
>> RealBASIC does; AIR; Mono if you wanted to go .net ... that's the ones
>> that come immediately to mind.
>>
>
> Java, Python, Perl, Haskell, OCaml....
>
> Plenty of em.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gopher-Project mailing list
> Gopher-Project@...
> http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/gopher-project
>
Cameron Kaiser | 28 Apr 16:47 2010

Re: [gopher] spreading gopher

The problem with new clients, though, is that it requires someone go out and
get that client to use once it's written. I'd like to see gopher already at
somebody's fingertips in the tools they already use.

To wit, I'm committing to (another, sigh) rewrite of Gopher in Mozilla --
see bug 388195 and bug 562320.

I really want to see gopher back in cURL, and if no one else is stepping up
I'll put some time into that (should be very simple to implement). But it
does make the community seem bigger than having the same names crop up all
the time.

--

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-- Corruptisima republica plurimae leges. -- Tacitus --------------------------
Mike Hebel | 28 Apr 17:00 2010

Re: [gopher] spreading gopher


On Apr 28, 2010, at 9:47 AM 4/28/10, Cameron Kaiser wrote:

> The problem with new clients, though, is that it requires someone go  
> out and
> get that client to use once it's written. I'd like to see gopher  
> already at
> somebody's fingertips in the tools they already use.
>
> To wit, I'm committing to (another, sigh) rewrite of Gopher in  
> Mozilla --
> see bug 388195 and bug 562320.

Yeah but at least they allowed you to keep it in the core using  
javascript.  It looks like that was hard fought and won by you and you  
alone.  Kudos!

> I really want to see gopher back in cURL, and if no one else is  
> stepping up
> I'll put some time into that (should be very simple to implement).  
> But it
> does make the community seem bigger than having the same names crop  
> up all
> the time.

Not for the ten-thousandth time I wish I could program my way out of a  
paper bag.  I barely know the basics of C and am _still_ trying to get  
past that.

It's like being that guy that is constantly "learning to play guitar"  
but never seems to get anywhere. :-(

--
Mike

"Right then!  This is isn't going to be big on dignity!"  -  The Doctor
Luke Ingerson | 28 Apr 17:15 2010
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Re: [gopher] spreading gopher

If I could program (which I can't) I'd write an iPhone gopher client  
and an android one; everyone is mad for smarthphone apps.

>
>>
Cameron Kaiser | 28 Apr 17:38 2010

Re: [gopher] spreading gopher

> > To wit, I'm committing to (another, sigh) rewrite of Gopher in  
> > Mozilla -- see bug 388195 and bug 562320.
> 
> Yeah but at least they allowed you to keep it in the core using  
> javascript.  It looks like that was hard fought and won by you and you  
> alone.  Kudos!

Thanks!

As far as cURL, I got this tweet from Daniel Stenberg himself:

< <at> bagder> . <at> doctorlinguist I'd love to get gopher re-added to libcurl! ;-)

So there is interest from the man with the keys. It's just a matter of
doing it.

--

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Kim Holviala | 28 Apr 19:47 2010
Face

Re: [gopher] spreading gopher

On 2010-04-28 18:38, Cameron Kaiser wrote:

> As far as cURL, I got this tweet from Daniel Stenberg himself:
>
> < <at> bagder>  . <at> doctorlinguist I'd love to get gopher re-added to libcurl! ;-)
>
> So there is interest from the man with the keys. It's just a matter of
> doing it.

Just downloaded cURL sources...

Damn - their url library alone (url.c) has three times the code lines 
Gophernicus has in total.

So... Looks like a good challenge :-).

- Kim
Cameron Kaiser | 28 Apr 21:56 2010

Re: [gopher] spreading gopher

> > As far as cURL, I got this tweet from Daniel Stenberg himself:
> >
> > < <at> bagder>  . <at> doctorlinguist I'd love to get gopher re-added to libcurl! ;-)
> >
> > So there is interest from the man with the keys. It's just a matter of
> > doing it.
> 
> Just downloaded cURL sources...
> 
> Damn - their url library alone (url.c) has three times the code lines 
> Gophernicus has in total.
> 
> So... Looks like a good challenge :-).

The layout of the individual protocols is actually pretty logical. They use
a more or less boiler-plate collection of methods. I was flipping through
the dict and tftp code today, and it shouldn't be hard to extrapolate from
those. If you want to take a whack at it, I'm certainly not declaring dibs.

--

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser@...
-- Assassinate me you may; intimidate me you cannot. -- John Philpot Curran ---
Kim Holviala | 29 Apr 05:19 2010
Face

Re: [gopher] spreading gopher

On 2010-04-28 22:56, Cameron Kaiser wrote:

> The layout of the individual protocols is actually pretty logical. They use
> a more or less boiler-plate collection of methods. I was flipping through
> the dict and tftp code today, and it shouldn't be hard to extrapolate from
> those. If you want to take a whack at it, I'm certainly not declaring dibs.
>

I was looking at tftp before I noticed this in doc/INTERNALS:

"The DICT, TELNET and TFTP are crappy examples and they are subject
for rewrite in the future to better fit the libcurl protocol family."

So I guess I need to take a look at HTTP next...

- Kim
Cameron Kaiser | 29 Apr 05:23 2010

Re: [gopher] spreading gopher

> > The layout of the individual protocols is actually pretty logical. They use
> > a more or less boiler-plate collection of methods. I was flipping through
> > the dict and tftp code today, and it shouldn't be hard to extrapolate from
> > those. If you want to take a whack at it, I'm certainly not declaring dibs.
> 
> I was looking at tftp before I noticed this in doc/INTERNALS:
> 
> "The DICT, TELNET and TFTP are crappy examples and they are subject
> for rewrite in the future to better fit the libcurl protocol family."
> 
> So I guess I need to take a look at HTTP next...

Ooof. Guess I should have spotted that. ^_^;;

--

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
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-- Military justice is to justice what military music is to music. -- G. Marx -
Kim Holviala | 28 Apr 18:50 2010
Face

Re: [gopher] spreading gopher

On 2010-04-28 17:47, Cameron Kaiser wrote:

> I really want to see gopher back in cURL, and if no one else is stepping up
> I'll put some time into that (should be very simple to implement). But it
> does make the community seem bigger than having the same names crop up all
> the time.

I can do a patch for cURL. I'm a wget man myself, but I think wget's a 
lost case anyway (it hasn't been maintained for years).

- Kimj
Alex Nordlund | 28 Apr 23:46 2010
Picon

Re: [gopher] spreading gopher

On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 4:47 PM, Cameron Kaiser <spectre@...> wrote:
> I really want to see gopher back in cURL, and if no one else is stepping up
> I'll put some time into that (should be very simple to implement). But it
> does make the community seem bigger than having the same names crop up all
> the time.

I'm willing to make a sacrifice; if you write the patch, I can claim the fame.
That way there'll be more names popping up ;-)

---
//Alex
Cameron Kaiser | 29 Apr 00:48 2010

Re: [gopher] spreading gopher

> > I really want to see gopher back in cURL, and if no one else is stepping up
> > I'll put some time into that (should be very simple to implement). But it
> > does make the community seem bigger than having the same names crop up all
> > the time.
> 
> I'm willing to make a sacrifice; if you write the patch, I can claim the fame.
> That way there'll be more names popping up ;-)

Uh-huh. :-P

--

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Kim Holviala | 28 Apr 06:16 2010
Face

Re: [gopher] spreading gopher

On 2010-04-28 06:58, Mike Hebel wrote:

> Something tells me this is a good opportunity to start fresh.
>
> I'm not a programmer but is there one development platform that crosses
> 'nix, Linux, Windows, and Mac that could be used to start a new client
> build?

I was planning on doing both console and graphical clients once I get 
the search engine done. I was planning on basing the graphical client to 
SDL which is compatible with all three major platforms (only I know 
nothing about Windows...).

- Kim

Gmane