On 06/19/2012 07:06 PM, Rich Jones wrote:

Ha! No, just inline text.

Whew! :-D

- Rob.
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When someone says things so grossly wrong as to warrant the line-by-line corrections that we are preparing, I generally wonder what drove the person to say such things.

On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 12:46 PM, Karl Fogel <kfogel <at> questioncopyright.org> wrote:

Elizabeth Stark <emstark <at> gmail.com> writes:
>There's a *lot* to rebut in this article, but one thing that stood out
>to me is how he says, let's pin this on what artists should make, hey,
>it's only $17.82 a month! This is what folks supporting systems like a
>voluntary collective license and other direct-to-artist solutions have
>been arguing for years — a way to cut out middlemen and find ways to
>directly remunerate artists. Sadly this argument falls completely
>flat, as the ~.20 cents per song direct-to-artist scenario is not an
>option for the purchase of most any music today.
>
>And agreed that pinning the death of people who clearly suffered from
>mental illness issues on lack of willingness of a generation to pay
>for music is a cheap shot at best. 
>
>I'd recommend that he read Courtney Love's famous article on the music
>industry's pillaging of
>artists: http://www.salon.com/2000/06/14/love_7/.

Good points all.

But I'd also caution: to accept his frame that it's about numbers ("Hmm,
which way makes more measurable/reliable income for artists?  Whichever
way it is, must be the best!") is to lose the argument before it begins.

Numbers are part of the story -- but so is freedom, and people sharing
music they love, and helping artists over the long term by getting the
word out and creating new fans.

One of the traps of rebuttals is that even as they refute every
individual point, they still end up affirming the overall frame of
reference & assumptions of the piece being rebutted.  This rebuttal
needs to refute the worst points (and rhetorical excesses) in Lowery's
piece, but it also needs to completely reframe the issue.

-K

>On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 10:35 AM, abram stern (aphid) <aphid <at> ucsc.edu>
>wrote:
>
>    That'd be fantastic.  I've seen the Lowery piece passed around by
>    a few bands I like and have a lot of respect for, and don't really
>    have the bandwidth atm to craft a pithy response.
>    -a
>
>
>
>
>    On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 10:11 AM, Jennifer Baek <baek01 <at> gmail.com>
>    wrote:
>
>
>        I like the idea of a response fashioned like the one
>        theoatmeal did. Maybe we can do both a visual piece as well as
>        a written piece?
>         
>        I'm on board to help out with both in collaboration with
>        Questioncopyright. I'm in DC for the summer with too much free
>        time. :>
>         
>        Jennifer
>
>
>
>        On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 12:57 PM, Karl Fogel
>        <kfogel <at> questioncopyright.org> wrote:
>
>        FWIW, we've just been discussing over at QuestionCopyright.org
>            whether
>            to do a length rebuttal of David Lowery's open letter [1].
>
>            While it would take a while to construct a good response
>            [2], on the
>            other hand a good one would likely get some eyeballs --
>            including some
>            of the people who saw the original.  So it's a great
>            opportunity.
>
>            If anyone here is drafting such a beast, please let us
>            know, here or via
>            http://questioncopyright.org/contact.  A truly well-done
>            rebuttal is
>            something we'd love to run; we've just got other stuff in
>            the pipeline
>            right now that makes it hard to draft a response to this
>            too (lesson #1:
>            number of opportunities will always exceed available
>            resources ).
>
>            I saw http://piratepad.net/KY6e7xIdkm which is a good
>            brainstorm of
>            ideas, but not, of course, a finished piece.
>
>            -Karl
>
>            [1]
>            http://thetrichordist.wordpress.com/2012/06/18/letter-to-emily-
>            white-at-
>            npr-all-songs-considered/
>
>            [2] http://theoatmeal.com/blog/tesla_response is one
>            rather nice example
>               of how to do such rebuttals .
>
>
>
>            Nate Otto <ottonomy <at> gmail.com> writes:
>            >I love how the " the duration of the copyright term is
>            pretty much
>            >irrelevant for an ethical discussion." is so casually
>            slipped in
>            >there.
>            >
>            >The main thrust of what I've read so far is that it is
>            not government's
>            >responsibility to ensure that artists are fairly
>            compensated. Except
>            >that it is explicitly Congress's job to "promote the
>            progress of
>            >science and the useful arts" through arranging the
>            underlying
>            >principles of the marketplace.
>            >
>            >Governments so far have set up a metaphor of intellectual
>            property to
>            >guide this marketplace, and this article is fully
>            grounded in that
>            >tradition. I think there are problems with that metaphor
>            that are
>            >brought to our attention by what digital technology makes
>            possible.
>            >
>            >In giving advice to people who want to work in the music
>            industry, I
>            >would point to reports like "The Sky is Rising" that Ali
>            linked to and
>            >encourage people to embrace the possibilities of business
>            models not
>            >built on the artificial scarcity of digital objects. It
>            is not moral
>            >to create scarcity out of abundance for the cause of rent
>            seeking.
>            >
>            >This all might not be relevant to SFC's response to the
>            piece, but I
>            >completely agree that this is a moral discussion.
>            >
>            >But not all moral premises are valid.  When budgeting
>            morally, what
>            >percent of income does a generation in an average of $25k
>            of debt have
>            >to spend on CDs? As much as their parents could spend?
>            >
>            >Anyway, there is a moral discussion to be had, but it
>            does not start
>            >from accepting every metaphor that guided the music
>            business before it
>            >became possible to distribute all music to everyone who
>            wanted it
>            >without additional costs.
>            >
>            >I may have more to add in a day or two, the next time I
>            come up for
>            >air.
>            >
>            >-Nate
>            >
>
>
>            >_______________________________________________
>            >Discuss mailing list
>            >Discuss <at> freeculture.org
>            >http://lists.freeculture.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>            >FAQ: http://wiki.freeculture.org/Fc-discuss
>            _______________________________________________
>            Discuss mailing list
>            Discuss <at> freeculture.org
>            http://lists.freeculture.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>            FAQ: http://wiki.freeculture.org/Fc-discuss
>
>
>
>
>        _______________________________________________
>        Discuss mailing list
>        Discuss <at> freeculture.org
>        http://lists.freeculture.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>        FAQ: http://wiki.freeculture.org/Fc-discuss
>
>
>
>
>
>    _______________________________________________
>    Discuss mailing list
>    Discuss <at> freeculture.org
>    http://lists.freeculture.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>    FAQ: http://wiki.freeculture.org/Fc-discuss
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Discuss mailing list
>Discuss <at> freeculture.org
>http://lists.freeculture.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>FAQ: http://wiki.freeculture.org/Fc-discuss
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Jennifer Baek <baek01 <at> gmail.com> writes:
>Hi, I've attached a screenshot of something I whipped up on
>Illustrator. What do you think? Some feedback on format would be
>great. Content, we'll continue to work on together on the piratepad.
>The content in the screenshot isn't *final*, I just copy and pasted
>what was in the pirate pad.
>
>I created this because it was getting difficult for me to
>conceptualize how we were going to do in line commentary.

Love that look!

I think in this kind of point-by-point response, there are two ways to
go...

One way is what you did in the screenshot -- keep the original content
in the center and put the responses along the sides, using different
visual styles for the two to keep them distinct.

This keeps the focus on the original content, which has advantages and
disadvantages.  It says "Our purpose here is to annotate and deconstruct
what this person said", but it also means that the structure and major
themes of the response are still controlled by the original piece.  It
also means readers are re-exposed to all of the original letter, even
the parts that don't need rebuttal or that are repetitive with other
parts that we may be rebutting elsewhere.

The alternative is to write an essay that says the things you think need
saying, including selected quotes from the original letter inline.  In
other words, something like this:

  Dear Emily White,

  You've recently been told that you shouldn't share music -- that
  doing so hurts artists and is unethical.  You were told you should
  change your behavior, and that you should try to get your friends to
  change theirs.

  We think you got bad advice.  You're not hurting artists, you're
  helping them.  Although David Lowery was sincere and really believes
  what he wrote in his <link>letter to you</link>, we'd like to explain
  why he's wrong both about who the copyright system serves, and about
  what the Free Culture movement stands for.

        <insert (indented, italicized) first excerpt from Lowery's
        letter here.  It doesn't have to be the first thing he
        wrote in the letter -- it's just the first point you want
        to address.  In other words, the excerpts from his letter
        don't have to reproduce the entire letter; we're here to
        serve the Free Culture movement's purposes, not Lowery's.
        Obviously we shouldn't use misrepresentative excerpts or
        otherwise be unfair, but there is no moral obligation to
        reproduce every repetitive thing in his letter either.  I
        don't even think the excerpts necessarily have to appear in
        the same order in which they appeared in his letter, as
        long as we don't change the order of his argument or his
        logic in such a way as to misrepresent him.>

  Here is the response to the above excerpt.

        <and here is another excerpt from his letter>

  Here is the response to that second excerpt.

  And here is maybe a new paragraph that is not necessarily a response
  to any particular part of Lowery's letter, but is just making some
  point that you want to make, or summing up what you've said so far.

        <maybe here's more Lowery>

  More response.

Etc, etc -- you get the idea.

Again, I think either way can work.  I just wanted to offer an
alternative structure for consideration, since you seemed to be asking
for thoughts on structure before thoughts on content.

Big kudos to you for taking this great discussion we're all having here
and turning it into something useful to the public!

Best,
-Karl

>On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 11:50 PM, Jennifer Baek <baek01 <at> gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/travis-morrison/hey-dude-from-cracker-
>    im_b_1610557.html via Katie Baxter
>
>
>
>
>    On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 11:13 AM, Aditi Rajaram
>    <aditi.rajaram <at> gmail.com> wrote:
>
>    Stoked that we're responding (opened up the PiratePad and looking
>        through now). The original piece made me so mad I had to stop
>        in the middle a couple a times before I could go back and
>        finish reading it.
>
>
>
>
>        On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 9:24 PM, Jennifer Baek
>        <baek01 <at> gmail.com> wrote:
>
>        I agree with you... It might be worth it to address that. He's
>            definitely trying to appeal to ones emotions and morality.
>            I got a hint of religious rhetoric. Paying penance?!
>
>            I won't be around a computer for a greater part of the day
>            tomorrow since I'm going on a field trip with my
>            internship tomorrow.
>
>            Everyone, please continue to mark up the piratepad:
>            http://piratepad.net/KY6e7xIdkm
>
>            After we've brainstormed, we'll work on polishing our
>            response!
>
>            Thanks!
>
>
>
>
>            On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 11:49 PM, Alex Kozak
>            <alex <at> massthink.net> wrote:
>
>                            Sorry for taking this a bit off track
>                (continue scheming response etc) but something in the
>                response really upsets me, which is the subtle
>                implication that culture abundance and loving music
>                contributed to his friend's suicide. Not cool.
>
>                These guys just seem completely out of touch with our
>                generation.
>
>
>
>                On Jun 19, 2012 8:57 PM, "Alex Leavitt"
>                <alexleavitt <at> gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>                    Hit a NYT
>                    blog: http://mediadecoder.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/06/19/npr-
>                    intern-gets-an-earful-after-blogging-about-11000-songs-
>                    almost-none-paid-for/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>                    On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 2:29 PM, Karl Fogel
>                    <kfogel <at> questioncopyright.org> wrote:
>
>                    [Unifying two threads here by adding QCO discuss <at>
>                        list as a recipient --
>                        we'd been discussing this over there too.]
>
>                        So, Nina Paley just pointed out that the
>                        wonderful (and fast) Mike
>                        Masnick of Techdirt has posted this quick
>                        response piece:
>
>                         http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120619/11493419390/david-
>                        lowery-wants-pony.shtml
>
>                        I really like Mike's response, but there's an
>                        important thing it doesn't
>                        do, which is turn the tables on David Lowery's
>                        morality argument.
>
>                        Masnick basically says "This is the new
>                        reality: get over it, and find a
>                        way to work in it, because you have no choice.
>                         Asking for anything else
>                        is asking for a pony."  (Okay, I'm
>                        paraphrasing!)
>
>                        That's a useful message, but it's still
>                        essentially an amoral -- by
>                        which I do *not* mean "immoral" -- argument.
>                         Yet I don't see any reason
>                        to cede the moral high ground to Lowery.  He's
>                        the one arguing against
>                        people sharing culture, and in favor of
>                        monopoly and control, after all.
>
>                        So despite Masnick's excellent job, I think
>                        there's a big opening for a
>                        deeper and explicitly anti-monopoly rebuttal
>                        here, and that it will get
>                        some traction.
>
>                        I'm sending this partly for Jennifer Baek's
>                        benefit, since she's working
>                        on a rebuttal (along with anyone else who
>                        wants to, of course).  Jen,
>                        Masnick's piece is worth reading, and maybe
>                        referring to, but I
>                        certainly don't think it says everything that
>                        could be said.
>
>                        Also, just to second what Alex Leavitt said:
>                        "Wow! I'm so glad to see
>                        the amazing discussion this has generated."
>                         Absolutely!  David may have
>                        written a bad essay, but he's still generating
>                        something good...
>
>                        Best,
>                        -K
>
>
>
>                        Nate Otto <ottonomy <at> gmail.com> writes:
>                        >I'll take a look at the etherpad later, but
>                        I'd caution against doing
>                        >a whole point-by-point rebuttal of the
>                        letter. I think a concise
>                        >response focusing on just one or two main
>                        points would ultimately be
>                        >more effective. (But I'm no longer a student,
>                        and I can't say that I
>                        >speak for SFC, only as an independent
>                        supporter of free culture)
>                        >
>                        >The points that stood out for me as asking
>                        for response are first: the
>                        >main thrust that individuals have a
>                        responsibility to pay the
>                        >structures currently set up to support
>                        artists and petition the
>                        >government in support of the "property
>                        rights" framing that in turn
>                        >supports these entrenched players and to not
>                        question whether this all
>                        >makes sense in the context of the Internet,
>                        which is the best media
>                        >distribution system the world has ever seen.
>                        >
>                        >The second is:
>                        >"What the corporate backed Free Culture
>                        movement is asking us to do is
>                        >analogous to changing our morality and
>                        principles to allow the
>                        >equivalent of looting."
>                        >
>                        >Changing the metaphors underlying "culture as
>                        property" is a possible
>                        >outcome of the Free Culture movement. We are
>                        having a conversation
>                        >about how to have a free culture where
>                        artists can live happily.
>                        >Entrenched players may join in, but they have
>                        to realize that
>                        >"looting" is a word that comes out of their
>                        framing of the issue; we
>                        >may not accept that framing as what is needed
>                        to support a 21st C
>                        >(conected) culture.
>                        >
>                        >-Nate
>                        >
>
>
>                        >______________________________________________
>                        _
>                        >Discuss mailing list
>                        >Discuss <at> freeculture.org
>                        >http://lists.freeculture.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>                        >FAQ: http://wiki.freeculture.org/Fc-discuss
>                        _______________________________________________
>                        Discuss mailing list
>                        Discuss <at> freeculture.org
>                        http://lists.freeculture.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>                        FAQ: http://wiki.freeculture.org/Fc-discuss
>
>
>
>                    _______________________________________________
>                    Discuss mailing list
>                    Discuss <at> freeculture.org
>                    http://lists.freeculture.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>                    FAQ: http://wiki.freeculture.org/Fc-discuss
>
>
>
>                _______________________________________________
>                Discuss mailing list
>                Discuss <at> freeculture.org
>                http://lists.freeculture.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>                FAQ: http://wiki.freeculture.org/Fc-discuss
>
>
>
>
>
>            _______________________________________________
>            Discuss mailing list
>            Discuss <at> freeculture.org
>            http://lists.freeculture.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>            FAQ: http://wiki.freeculture.org/Fc-discuss
>
>
>
>
>
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