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MJ Ray | 16 Nov 12:44
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Debian needs Welsh and Irish l10n help

I just noticed that the Welsh and Irish languages have been deactivated 
from the debian-installer.  Can anyone help find help?  Source:
http://lists.debian.org/debian-i18n/2006/11/msg00145.html 
D-I towards RC2 Day 1: 50/1/36/38/22

I don't know whether these can be rescued in time for the next release 
and given how infrequent releases seem to be these days, that's sad.  
Debian is the ancestor of a number of others, including gNewSense 
through Ubuntu, and Cymrux through Knoppix, so I hope that improving 
debian localisation will help those too.

Please pass this message on as you think best.

Thanks,
--

-- 
MJR/slef
My Opinion Only: see http://people.debian.org/~mjr/
Please follow http://www.uk.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct
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Christian Perrier | 16 Nov 21:10
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Re: Debian needs Welsh and Irish l10n help

Any person wanting to help with Welsh or Irish localisation of Debian 
Installer is welcomed to contact me. I'm glad to see that Daf 
will try to re-improve the Welsh translation, but the  Irish 
one could also get attention.

Thanks, MJ, for bringing this out as widely as possible
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Jon Grant | 16 Nov 14:44
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Re: Debian needs Welsh and Irish l10n help

Hiya

MJ Ray elucidated on 16/11/06 11:44:

*



> I just noticed that the Welsh and Irish languages have been deactivated 
> from the debian-installer.  Can anyone help find help?  Source:
> http://lists.debian.org/debian-i18n/2006/11/msg00145.html 
> D-I towards RC2 Day 1: 50/1/36/38/22


Without wanting to cause a stir with any cultural imperialism, perhaps
there are more important things than Welsh and Irish i18n..

Welsh was almost dead before the revival in the last 10 years as I
understand it. Many of those people taught in Welsh will be stuck with
difficulty speaking English when they want to consider wider range of
job options in their life. So it could be a blessing for them to have
English as their first language, and a European or Asian language as
second ;)

Cheers
Jon
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Shane M. Coughlan | 16 Nov 15:24
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Re: Debian needs Welsh and Irish l10n help

*



Jon Grant wrote:
> Without wanting to cause a stir with any cultural imperialism, perhaps
> there are more important things than Welsh and Irish i18n..
> Welsh was almost dead before the revival in the last 10 years as I
> understand it. Many of those people taught in Welsh will be stuck with
> difficulty speaking English when they want to consider wider range of
> job options in their life. So it could be a blessing for them to have
> English as their first language, and a European or Asian language as
> second ;)


Um, no.  I don't agree.  A culture is inherently connected with its
language.  We should not depreciate support for languages merely based
on considerations of financial gain or job opportunities.

I am Irish, and one of my regrets is that - as a child - I did not learn
more about the language.  I'm glad there is support for my language in
GNU/Linux and I would appreciate if it were maintained.  I do plan to
study Irish again when I have time.

Happy to discuss this off-list :)

Shane
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Gareth Bowker | 16 Nov 14:47
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Re: Debian needs Welsh and Irish l10n help

*



On Thu, 2006-11-16 at 13:44 +0000, Jon Grant wrote:

> Without wanting to cause a stir with any cultural imperialism, perhaps
> there are more important things than Welsh and Irish i18n..
> 
> Welsh was almost dead before the revival in the last 10 years as I
> understand it. Many of those people taught in Welsh will be stuck with
> difficulty speaking English when they want to consider wider range of
> job options in their life. So it could be a blessing for them to have
> English as their first language, and a European or Asian language as
> second ;)


Um, are you being serious?

If so, I'll just point out that you're quite wrong in your assertions.
I'll happily fill in the details off-list, but the statements about
Welsh being almost dead or the part about having difficulty speaking
English is so absurd I don't even know where to begin!

Cheers,

Gareth

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George McLachlan | 16 Nov 14:59
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Re: Debian needs Welsh and Irish l10n help


It may have more to do with the fact that there may not be enough people
to carry out the work. Having spent my work placement in Wales (albeit
South Wales) I have to say the majority of Welsh people that I met,
could not (or were not willing to learn) Welsh. This is just my
observation.

It also has to be said that you have to be pragmatic when managing a
project, so perhaps a lack of demand has meant that support has been
dropped.

Of course the beauty of FOSS is that anyone who wishes to revive it is
free to do so. So the ball is now in the lap of the native Welsh and
Irish speakers who wish to see it included again.

George

Gareth Bowker wrote:
> > On Thu, 2006-11-16 at 13:44 +0000, Jon Grant wrote:
> >
>> >> Without wanting to cause a stir with any cultural imperialism, perhaps
>> >> there are more important things than Welsh and Irish i18n..
>> >>
>> >> Welsh was almost dead before the revival in the last 10 years as I
>> >> understand it. Many of those people taught in Welsh will be stuck with
>> >> difficulty speaking English when they want to consider wider range of
>> >> job options in their life. So it could be a blessing for them to have
>> >> English as their first language, and a European or Asian language as
>> >> second  ;)
> >
> > Um, are you being serious?
> >
> > If so, I'll just point out that you're quite wrong in your assertions.
> > I'll happily fill in the details off-list, but the statements about
> > Welsh being almost dead or the part about having difficulty speaking
> > English is so absurd I don't even know where to begin!
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Gareth
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Fsfe-uk mailing list
> > Fsfe-uk <at> gnu.org
> > http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/fsfe-uk

Gareth Bowker wrote:
> On Thu, 2006-11-16 at 13:44 +0000, Jon Grant wrote:
> 
>> Without wanting to cause a stir with any cultural imperialism, perhaps
>> there are more important things than Welsh and Irish i18n..
>>
>> Welsh was almost dead before the revival in the last 10 years as I
>> understand it. Many of those people taught in Welsh will be stuck with
>> difficulty speaking English when they want to consider wider range of
>> job options in their life. So it could be a blessing for them to have
>> English as their first language, and a European or Asian language as
>> second ;)
> 
> Um, are you being serious?
> 
> If so, I'll just point out that you're quite wrong in your assertions.
> I'll happily fill in the details off-list, but the statements about
> Welsh being almost dead or the part about having difficulty speaking
> English is so absurd I don't even know where to begin!
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Gareth
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Fsfe-uk mailing list
> Fsfe-uk <at> gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/fsfe-uk
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Kevin Donnelly | 16 Nov 15:17

Re: Debian needs Welsh and Irish l10n help

*



On Thursday 16 November 2006 13:47, Gareth Bowker wrote:
> On Thu, 2006-11-16 at 13:44 +0000, Jon Grant wrote:
> > Without wanting to cause a stir with any cultural imperialism, perhaps
> > there are more important things than Welsh and Irish i18n..
> >
> > Welsh was almost dead before the revival in the last 10 years as I
> > understand it. Many of those people taught in Welsh will be stuck with
> > difficulty speaking English when they want to consider wider range of
> > job options in their life. So it could be a blessing for them to have
> > English as their first language, and a European or Asian language as
> > second ;)
>
> Um, are you being serious?
>
> If so, I'll just point out that you're quite wrong in your assertions.
> I'll happily fill in the details off-list, but the statements about
> Welsh being almost dead or the part about having difficulty speaking
> English is so absurd I don't even know where to begin!


Paid â bwydo'r ellyll ....

--

-- 
Pob hwyl / Best wishes

Kevin Donnelly

www.kyfieithu.co.uk - KDE yn Gymraeg
www.eurfa.org.uk - Geiriadur rhydd i'r Gymraeg
www.rhedadur.org.uk - Rhedeg berfau Cymraeg
www.cymrux.org.uk - Linux Cymraeg ar un CD
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MJ Ray | 16 Nov 17:21
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Re: Debian needs Welsh and Irish l10n help

> > On Thu, 2006-11-16 at 13:44 +0000, Jon Grant wrote:
> > > Without wanting to cause a stir with any cultural imperialism, perhaps
> > > there are more important things than Welsh and Irish i18n..

Of course there are: famine, disease, poverty and so on.

However, for people who know Welsh or Irish, having a computer able to 
communicate in that language can be very helpful.  The idea that using 
another language would somehow make one less able to speak English is so 
contrary to the available evidence that I'm amazed anyone posted it.  If 
anyone in Britain has difficulty speaking English coherently, it is the 
monolingual English, I'm sorry to say.

I hope someone does clue you in fully off-list, but for now, see:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/6103176.stm
Bilingual pupils 'are an asset'

http://education.independent.co.uk/news/article1943292.ece
Bilingual pupils do better in exams, report finds

Hopefully the likes of Jon Grant won't deter anyone from localising free 
software to Welsh, Irish and many other languages.

Kevin Donnelly <kevin <at> dotmon.com> wrote:
> Paid â bwydo'r ellyll ....

Is that: don't feed the devil?  I hope this subthread is short and cold.

Nevertheless, I ask people to at least post an English translation for 
the vast number on this list who don't yet understand Welsh.

Best wishes,
--

--
(Continue reading)

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Kevin Donnelly | 17 Nov 00:07

Re: Debian needs Welsh and Irish l10n help

*



On Thursday 16 November 2006 16:21, MJ Ray wrote:
> > Paid â bwydo'r ellyll ....
> Is that: don't feed the devil?


Don't feed the troll.  I have to follow my own advice as regards the rest, 
though ....

--

-- 
Pob hwyl / Best wishes

Kevin Donnelly

www.kyfieithu.co.uk - KDE yn Gymraeg
www.eurfa.org.uk - Geiriadur rhydd i'r Gymraeg
www.rhedadur.org.uk - Rhedeg berfau Cymraeg
www.cymrux.org.uk - Linux Cymraeg ar un CD
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Jon Grant | 16 Nov 22:26
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Re: Debian needs Welsh and Irish l10n help

Hiya,

MJ Ray elucidated on 16/11/06 16:21:
>>> On Thu, 2006-11-16 at 13:44 +0000, Jon Grant wrote:
>>>> Without wanting to cause a stir with any cultural imperialism, perhaps
>>>> there are more important things than Welsh and Irish i18n..
> 
> Of course there are: famine, disease, poverty and so on.
> 
> However, for people who know Welsh or Irish, having a computer able to 
> communicate in that language can be very helpful.  The idea that using 
> another language would somehow make one less able to speak English is so 
> contrary to the available evidence that I'm amazed anyone posted it.  If 
> anyone in Britain has difficulty speaking English coherently, it is the 
> monolingual English, I'm sorry to say.

Who said make people use a computer in a language other than their
first? I certainly didn't. Also, what evidence do you have? Your point
doesn't make sense as it is, especially considering very view people
will be perfectly equal in ability of their first and second languages.
Sounds like you might have misunderstood my point which was essentially
about the relative merits of a common and popular language over a less
popular minor language as a first language.

I don't dispute the fact that some in britain also have difficult
speaking English, however that is unfortunately due to background and
upbringing than a desire to not speak English or learn a different
language (in my experience at least)

> I hope someone does clue you in fully off-list, but for now, see:
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/6103176.stm
> Bilingual pupils 'are an asset'
> 
> http://education.independent.co.uk/news/article1943292.ece
> Bilingual pupils do better in exams, report finds

Just read both of these, they both support my point fully. Did you not
read them? Please re-read my message if you thought they didn't support
my point.. I wholeheartedly support Sir Trevor's 'English-plus' policy.
I do wish the BBC would employ a spell checker though! "spokesn" indeed.

> Hopefully the likes of Jon Grant won't deter anyone from localising free 
> software to Welsh, Irish and many other languages.

That's a bit strong and inaccurate, you don't need to revert to ad
hominem to argue your point. Who's deterred anyone from i18n? IMHO
you're miss-reinterpreting my points, as a certain President would say,
hehe.

If we can, we should all strive to be plurilingual in the modern world
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MJ Ray | 17 Nov 12:48
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Re: Debian needs Welsh and Irish l10n help

Jon Grant <jg <at> jguk.org> wrote:
> Who said make people use a computer in a language other than their
> first? I certainly didn't.

I'm sorry that I took replying to a call for Welsh and Irish
localisers with a suggestion that it's not worthwhile because English
is more useful as a suggestion that Welsh and Irish speakers should
not have the computer localised to their language.  So what did it
mean?

[about English language skill of British users of other languages]
> Also, what evidence do you have?

Start at www.languageswork.org.uk for informal.  I'm not familiar with
the formal literature, but a quick search finds articles about the
beneficial effects of multilingualism in a wide range of journals,
from those I would expect, such as The Linguist, to some I was
surprised to find, such as Psychology and Aging.

[...]
> That's a bit strong and inaccurate, you don't need to revert to ad
> hominem to argue your point.

I don't consider linking the argument first presented by you to your
name is an against-the-person (ad hominem) attack.  Saying that the
argument is wrong *because* you support it would be such an attack.

> If we can, we should all strive to be plurilingual in the modern world
> that we
> live, and definitely in a useful way. Without wanting to sound arrogant, I
> speak 3 languages, all of them significantly useful. We should focus on
> useful a head of marginal as Clit highlight in your links.

What's a head of marginal?  It's funny: I didn't read anything about
useful or marginal in those links.  Without wanting to sound arrogant,
how good's your English comprehension?  Cilt's report explictly argues
against "English only" and uses the 21% bilingual Welsh as an example
of good practice!

> Give students and careers advisers the the choice of between students
> being taught in a popular language and having a popular European or
> Asian language as their second tongue and the majority would take that
> option.

I don't understand this.  Take which option?  Choose "being taught in
(Continue reading)

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Andrew Savory | 17 Nov 13:03
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Re: Debian needs Welsh and Irish l10n help

Hi,

Can I suggest we rename this list to languages-uk or  
alt.welsh.die.die.die?

Or alternatively, get back on-topic, please, and take (spoken)  
language discussions off-list.

Thanks,

Andrew.
--
Andrew Savory, Managing Director, Luminas Limited
Tel: +44 (0)870 741 6658  Fax: +44 (0)700 598 1135
Web: http://www.luminas.co.uk/
Sourcesense: http://www.sourcesense.com/
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Chris Croughton | 17 Nov 14:18
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Re: Debian needs Welsh and Irish l10n help

*



On Fri, Nov 17, 2006 at 12:03:08PM +0000, Andrew Savory wrote:

> Can I suggest we rename this list to languages-uk or  
> alt.welsh.die.die.die?
> 
> Or alternatively, get back on-topic, please, and take (spoken)  
> language discussions off-list.


May I suggest that if you have something more urgent or important to
discuss then you post it and we can discuss that?

The dropping of support in FOSS for languages some of which are mandated
by governments for official sites seems to be of rather a lot of
relevance to this list.  The suggestion that that it doesn't matter
because only 'a few' people use it is similarly on topic.

Chris C
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Alex Hudson | 16 Nov 22:48

Re: Debian needs Welsh and Irish l10n help

*



On Thu, 2006-11-16 at 21:26 +0000, Jon Grant wrote:
> > Hopefully the likes of Jon Grant won't deter anyone from localising free 
> > software to Welsh, Irish and many other languages.
> 
> That's a bit strong and inaccurate, you don't need to revert to ad
> hominem to argue your point. Who's deterred anyone from i18n? 


To be fair, I think the statement of yours which people are taking most
issue with was "perhaps there are more important things than Welsh and
Irish i18n".

Strictly speaking, no, it's not deterrence, but it does imply that those
who spend their time on such endeavours are doing something less
important than other, presumably more worthwhile, tasks.

To be honest, languages aside, suggesting certain efforts are less
important than others is always likely to raise hackles :)

Cheers,

Alex.
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Matt Lee | 17 Nov 01:15
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Re: Debian needs Welsh and Irish l10n help

*



On Thu, Nov 16, 2006 at 09:48:15PM +0000, Alex Hudson wrote:

> To be honest, languages aside, suggesting certain efforts are less
> important than others is always likely to raise hackles :)


Anyone not working on the PPC port of GNU Hurd is wasting my time
and the time of others! Fact. [1]

matt

[1] Not fact.

--

-- 
Matt Lee
Chief Webmaster, GNU Project - http://www.gnu.org/ - Free as in Freedom
Free Software Foundation - Free Software, Free Society - http://www.fsf.org/

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Jon Grant | 16 Nov 15:14
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Re: Debian needs Welsh and Irish l10n help

Hiya Gareth,

Gareth Bowker elucidated on 16/11/06 13:47:
> On Thu, 2006-11-16 at 13:44 +0000, Jon Grant wrote:
> 
>> Without wanting to cause a stir with any cultural imperialism, perhaps
>> there are more important things than Welsh and Irish i18n..
>>
>> Welsh was almost dead before the revival in the last 10 years as I
>> understand it. Many of those people taught in Welsh will be stuck with
>> difficulty speaking English when they want to consider wider range of
>> job options in their life. So it could be a blessing for them to have
>> English as their first language, and a European or Asian language as
>> second ;)
> 
> Um, are you being serious?

Perhaps a bit of both, it was actually a welsh family who pointed out to
me some of the "problems" they saw with the change to being taught in
Welsh at school.

> If so, I'll just point out that you're quite wrong in your assertions.
> I'll happily fill in the details off-list, but the statements about
> Welsh being almost dead or the part about having difficulty speaking
> English is so absurd I don't even know where to begin!

Ok, I'd be interested to hear from you.

Cheers
Jon
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Kevin Donnelly | 16 Nov 13:56

Re: Debian needs Welsh and Irish l10n help

On Thursday 16 November 2006 11:44, MJ Ray wrote:
> I just noticed that the Welsh and Irish languages have been deactivated
> from the debian-installer.

I can't speak for Irish, but for Welsh I'm surprised, since Dafydd Harries 
(the main GNOME translator) is (or was) a Debian user.  Does Gareth have any 
light to shed on this?

> I don't know whether these can be rescued in time for the next release
> and given how infrequent releases seem to be these days, that's sad.
> Debian is the ancestor of a number of others, including gNewSense
> through Ubuntu, and Cymrux through Knoppix, so I hope that improving
> debian localisation will help those too.

Indeed.  Having said that, though, Welsh KDE has been stalled for the last 18 
months while I work on developing a GPLed dictionary (Eurfa), spelling 
checker and grammar checker (to be released shortly).  GPL tools were not 
available, and the translations needed checking.  So it may be that Dafydd 
(if he was ever involved!) has had other competing demands on *his* time.  

--

-- 
Pob hwyl / Best wishes

Kevin Donnelly

www.kyfieithu.co.uk - KDE yn Gymraeg
www.eurfa.org.uk - Geiriadur rhydd i'r Gymraeg
www.rhedadur.org.uk - Rhedeg berfau Cymraeg
www.cymrux.org.uk - Linux Cymraeg ar un CD
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Gareth Bowker | 16 Nov 14:01
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Re: Debian needs Welsh and Irish l10n help

On Thu, 2006-11-16 at 12:56 +0000, Kevin Donnelly wrote:
> On Thursday 16 November 2006 11:44, MJ Ray wrote:
> > I just noticed that the Welsh and Irish languages have been deactivated
> > from the debian-installer.
> 
> I can't speak for Irish, but for Welsh I'm surprised, since Dafydd Harries 
> (the main GNOME translator) is (or was) a Debian user.  Does Gareth have any 
> light to shed on this?

Not really, no :) I know Daf changed jobs a while ago, but other than
that, I don't know. I've CC'ed Daf in, so maybe he can shed some
light...

> > I don't know whether these can be rescued in time for the next release
> > and given how infrequent releases seem to be these days, that's sad.
> > Debian is the ancestor of a number of others, including gNewSense
> > through Ubuntu, and Cymrux through Knoppix, so I hope that improving
> > debian localisation will help those too.
> 
> Indeed.  Having said that, though, Welsh KDE has been stalled for the last 18 
> months while I work on developing a GPLed dictionary (Eurfa), spelling 
> checker and grammar checker (to be released shortly).  GPL tools were not 
> available, and the translations needed checking.  So it may be that Dafydd 
> (if he was ever involved!) has had other competing demands on *his* time.  

Cheers,

Gareth

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Dafydd Harries | 16 Nov 14:07

Re: Debian needs Welsh and Irish l10n help

Ar 16/11/2006 am 13:01, ysgrifennodd Gareth Bowker:

*



> On Thu, 2006-11-16 at 12:56 +0000, Kevin Donnelly wrote:
> > On Thursday 16 November 2006 11:44, MJ Ray wrote:
> > > I just noticed that the Welsh and Irish languages have been deactivated
> > > from the debian-installer.
> > 
> > I can't speak for Irish, but for Welsh I'm surprised, since Dafydd Harries 
> > (the main GNOME translator) is (or was) a Debian user.  Does Gareth have any 
> > light to shed on this?
> 
> Not really, no :) I know Daf changed jobs a while ago, but other than
> that, I don't know. I've CC'ed Daf in, so maybe he can shed some
> light...
> 
> > > I don't know whether these can be rescued in time for the next release
> > > and given how infrequent releases seem to be these days, that's sad.
> > > Debian is the ancestor of a number of others, including gNewSense
> > > through Ubuntu, and Cymrux through Knoppix, so I hope that improving
> > > debian localisation will help those too.
> > 
> > Indeed.  Having said that, though, Welsh KDE has been stalled for the last 18 
> > months while I work on developing a GPLed dictionary (Eurfa), spelling 
> > checker and grammar checker (to be released shortly).  GPL tools were not 
> > available, and the translations needed checking.  So it may be that Dafydd 
> > (if he was ever involved!) has had other competing demands on *his* time.  


Hi,

The Debian installer did have a complete Welsh translation by myself a few
months ago but it has since lapsed. Indeed, I've recently not been
particularly active with the Gnome translation either, though Rhys Jones has
been keeping that up.

It's not a huge amount of work to bring the translation up to date, and it's
conceivable that it could be officially supported in the 1.0 release, but
there's also work to be done in areas like dpkg, APT, tasksel, shadow, exim
etc for all messages that are displayed during installation to be translated.

--

-- 
Dafydd
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