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Sam Tuke | 13 Sep 2010 16:59
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New FSFE Free PDF Readers Campaign

Today FSFE has launched a new campaign to remove advertising of proprietary 
PDF readers from government websites.

Campaign: http://www.fsfe.org/campaigns/pdfreaders

Petition: http://www.fsfe.org/campaigns/pdfreaders/petition.en.html

The campaign is targeting European government websites that advertise or 
require non-Free software, and particularly endorsements and links to Adobe 
Acrobat Reader.

We will encourage the public to find and report to us websites that contain 
such adverts, list them all publicly, and encourage signing of a petition to 
end this practice.

There is a prize for groups and individuals who report the largest number of 
infringing websites. At the end of the campaign the petition will be sent by 
post to all the institutions involved.

At a period after the petitions have been sent we shall review the infringing 
sites to see if the problems have been rectified, and if not we shall publicly 
pursue them to seek a resolution.

We have already received significant press coverage of this event, and over two 
hundred bugs have been submitted in the last few hours.

If you would like more information about this campaign, please don't hesitate 
to get in touch.

Kind Regards,
(Continue reading)

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Jon Grant | 14 Sep 2010 23:33

Re: New FSFE Free PDF Readers Campaign

On 13 September 2010 15:59, Sam Tuke <samtuke <at> fsfe.org> wrote:
> Today FSFE has launched a new campaign to remove advertising of proprietary
> PDF readers from government websites.
>
> Campaign: http://www.fsfe.org/campaigns/pdfreaders

This page looks good, but is incredibly wide. Not usable on modern
mobile (HTC Desire) and is even off the side of the screen on netbook
running ubuntu.

The Petition page isn't much better. Could the site be updated to be a
max of around 600px wide so it fits in a mobile, netbook or
non-maximised

> Petition: http://www.fsfe.org/campaigns/pdfreaders/petition.en.html

Signed.This is good.

I'd be even more interested in government websites providing their
documents in non-PDF format though. Something like HMTL, or even
OpenOffice format etc.  How about launching a campaign to get
governments to stop using PDFs instead of web pages? It is such a pain
to try edit/re-use anything published in only a PDF file.

Even Free Software places like http://oss-watch.ac.uk/ publish in
off-line PDF files instead of HTML format. We all browse from netbooks
and mobiles nowadays, offline hard-coded, fixed-size PDFs aren't
really that good for that traditional off-line use-case!

Best regards, Jon
(Continue reading)

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Chris Croughton | 15 Sep 2010 21:59
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Re: New FSFE Free PDF Readers Campaign

On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 10:33:09PM +0100, Jon Grant wrote:
> On 13 September 2010 15:59, Sam Tuke <samtuke <at> fsfe.org> wrote:
> > Today FSFE has launched a new campaign to remove advertising of proprietary
> > PDF readers from government websites.
> >
> > Campaign: http://www.fsfe.org/campaigns/pdfreaders
> 
> This page looks good, but is incredibly wide. Not usable on modern
> mobile (HTC Desire) and is even off the side of the screen on netbook
> running ubuntu.
> 
> The Petition page isn't much better. Could the site be updated to be a
> max of around 600px wide so it fits in a mobile, netbook or
> non-maximised

Or better don't use fixed-width CSS formatting at all.  I found that
when I turned CSS off I could get down to around 600px wide (possibly a
tad more, I didn't get an accurate measurement) before the tables forced
it to scroll sideways.

> > Petition: http://www.fsfe.org/campaigns/pdfreaders/petition.en.html
> 
> Signed.This is good.
> 
> I'd be even more interested in government websites providing their
> documents in non-PDF format though. Something like HMTL, or even
> OpenOffice format etc.  How about launching a campaign to get
> governments to stop using PDFs instead of web pages? It is such a pain
> to try edit/re-use anything published in only a PDF file.
(Continue reading)

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Tom Chance | 16 Sep 2010 11:04
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Re: New FSFE Free PDF Readers Campaign

On 15 September 2010 20:59, Chris Croughton <affs <at> keristor.co.uk> wrote:

> On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 10:33:09PM +0100, Jon Grant wrote:
> > On 13 September 2010 15:59, Sam Tuke <samtuke <at> fsfe.org> wrote:
> > > Today FSFE has launched a new campaign to remove advertising of
> proprietary
> > > PDF readers from government websites.
> > >
> > > Campaign: http://www.fsfe.org/campaigns/pdfreaders
>
>
Nice campaign. However, the web site http://www.pdfreaders.org, which I
presume you would prefer government web sites point to, isn't really
suitable for that purpose.

Somebody needs to turn that page into a consumer facing web site with a big
simple button (auto-detecting your platform as per the table) to download
the recommended PDF software. The table could appear undernath for those who
would like options.

All the info about ISO and patents is interesting to me, but will make no
sense at all to the average person, particularly if they have felt the need
to follow a link to download a PDF reader (i.e. they're not exactly geeks).

It also needs prominent accessibility information, and you need to be sure
that the software you point to will comply with relevant disability laws in
the countries you are lobbying. I don't know much about that point, but
Adobe provide this information on the page that many government bodies point
to:
http://www.adobe.com/accessibility/products/acrobat/
(Continue reading)

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Ralph Corderoy | 16 Sep 2010 12:17
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Re: New FSFE Free PDF Readers Campaign


Hi,

Tom Chance wrote:
> Somebody needs to turn that page into a consumer facing web site with
> a big simple button (auto-detecting your platform as per the table) to
> download the recommended PDF software. The table could appear
> undernath for those who would like options.

For filing of certain types of accounts online, and you have to do it
online, www.hmrc.gov.uk recently provided a PDF that was a series of
forms, with it doing calculations for you, and then it securely uploaded
the results to HMRC using your login details when complete.  A real pain
compared to the web interface it replaced since I had to install Adobe
Reader, AdbeRdr9.3.2-1_i486linux_enu.bin;  are any of the free PDF
readers at the level where they can substitute for this type of use?

Cheers,
Ralph.
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Jon Grant | 16 Sep 2010 13:16

Re: New FSFE Free PDF Readers Campaign

On 16 September 2010 11:17, Ralph Corderoy <ralph <at> inputplus.co.uk> wrote:
[.]
> For filing of certain types of accounts online, and you have to do it
> online, www.hmrc.gov.uk recently provided a PDF that was a series of
> forms, with it doing calculations for you, and then it securely uploaded
> the results to HMRC using your login details when complete.  A real pain
> compared to the web interface it replaced since I had to install Adobe
> Reader, AdbeRdr9.3.2-1_i486linux_enu.bin;  are any of the free PDF
> readers at the level where they can substitute for this type of use?

I doubt it. This is the central problem with supporting someone else's
evolving standard. FSF has made all the same problems/mistakes
supporting Adobe Flash format with their Gnash. Shame they didn't give
HTML5, video, audio tags and Ogg Theora such importance. This is why
Flash and also Silverlight has done so well. FSF needs to take the
lead with vendor neutral standards rather than trying to reverse
engineer other companies formats.

Gnash still stop priority: http://www.fsf.org/campaigns/priority-projects/

Obviously Reversible GDB debugging is top priority, not.  Sorry for
being cynical, at least FSFE is more relevant.

I'm certain 10 years from now FSF focus will still be on things like
BIOS and Adobe's latest proprietary format, missing the web
completely, the biggest area of software they have no priorities
within, oops! Is there anyone more in tune with modern software who
could take over leadership of FSF?  ..Just to add, I am not entirely
serious with this question, but I do see the direction isn't very
successful since I have followed FSF (10yrs or so)
(Continue reading)

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Tom Chance | 16 Sep 2010 13:31
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Re: New FSFE Free PDF Readers Campaign

On 16 September 2010 12:16, Jon Grant <jg <at> jguk.org> wrote:

> I'm certain 10 years from now FSF focus will still be on things like
> BIOS and Adobe's latest proprietary format, missing the web
> completely, the biggest area of software they have no priorities
> within, oops!
>

Questions about the distant future and FSFE/FSF's overall focus aside (given
that government web sites are always a good few years behind the cutting
edge), I think this is a very sensible little campaign.

A bunch of free software hackers talking about OGG Theora and HTML5 is
frankly not going to budge the remaining 99.9% of the world one centimetre
away from sharing documents in the PDF format.

Lots of government agencies are familiar with supply RTF rather than DOC
files, and consider PDF to be another good accessible format. They will
understand this campaign, and they might be sympathetic to pointing at the
freepdfreaders web site.

Get some decent content up on the freepdfreaders web site addressing issues
like PDF forms and accessibility, and you have a nice baby steps campaign
ready to roll.

Regards,
Tom

--

-- 
http://tom.acrewoods.net   http://twitter.com/tom_chance
(Continue reading)

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MJ Ray | 18 Sep 2010 14:06
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Re: New FSFE Free PDF Readers Campaign

Tom Chance <tom <at> acrewoods.net> wrote:
> Get some decent content up on the freepdfreaders web site addressing issues
> like PDF forms and accessibility, and you have a nice baby steps campaign
> ready to roll.

I feel that's a good point.  For example, are PDF forms part of
ISO PDF or part of the Acrobat Extensions?  In other words, are
people publishing PDF forms publishing PDFs or Acrobat files?

I don't know/remember the answer to that and it would be nice to have
that on pdfreaders.org with appropriate source references, to help
explain to ukgov types how they're being vendor-specific.

Thanks,
--

-- 
MJ Ray (slef), member of www.software.coop, a for-more-than-profit co-op.
Webmaster, Debian Developer, Past Koha RM, statistician, former lecturer.
In My Opinion Only: see http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html
Available for hire for various work http://www.software.coop/products/
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Alex Hudson | 18 Sep 2010 17:29

Re: New FSFE Free PDF Readers Campaign

On Sat, 2010-09-18 at 13:06 +0100, MJ Ray wrote:
> Tom Chance <tom <at> acrewoods.net> wrote:
> > Get some decent content up on the freepdfreaders web site addressing issues
> > like PDF forms and accessibility, and you have a nice baby steps campaign
> > ready to roll.
> 
> I feel that's a good point.  For example, are PDF forms part of
> ISO PDF or part of the Acrobat Extensions?  In other words, are
> people publishing PDF forms publishing PDFs or Acrobat files?

None of the form systems (there's more than one) are in ISO unless I've
missed something. However, to say it's vendors-specific is a slight
stretch: OpenOffice.org, for example, has pretty wonderful forms support
built into it, and that's a *huge* selling point over MS Office - in
fact, probably one of the biggest differentiating features.

I don't know which viewers support what but I know evince has form
support too.

Cheers

Alex.

--
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Hannes Hauswedell | 19 Sep 2010 18:44
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Re: New FSFE Free PDF Readers Campaign

On Saturday 18 September 2010 14:06:52 MJ Ray wrote:
> Tom Chance <tom <at> acrewoods.net> wrote:
> > Get some decent content up on the freepdfreaders web site
> > addressing issues like PDF forms and accessibility, and you have a
> > nice baby steps campaign ready to roll.
> 
> I feel that's a good point.  For example, are PDF forms part of
> ISO PDF or part of the Acrobat Extensions?  In other words, are
> people publishing PDF forms publishing PDFs or Acrobat files?

What's all the fuss about forms? I was able to fill out and print every 
PDF-form I ever got with Okular. I did have issues saving the form 
contents to the PDF file once, but I was always able to print into a new 
pdf file (that then included the contents) and send that some place.

Also 99% of all PDF-files do not include forms and are displayed 
absolutely correct with free readers. Many casual users probably don't 
even now of form functionality in PDF.

I think we should push for standard compliance in poppler or help 
gnupdf, but I don't think this is a requirement for promoting free 
readers, as average users will be absolutely satisfied with the 
recommendations.
--

-- 
                         ┌─────────────────────────────────────────┐
Best Regards,            │ Free Software Foundation Europe    █▉   │
Hannes Hauswedell        │           German Team            █▉█▉█▉ │
                         │ Coordinator for pdfreaders.org     ▉▉   │
                         └─────────────────────────────────────────┘
(Continue reading)

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Rob Myers | 16 Sep 2010 13:47
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Re: New FSFE Free PDF Readers Campaign

On 09/16/2010 12:16 PM, Jon Grant wrote:
>
> I doubt it. This is the central problem with supporting someone else's
> evolving standard. FSF has made all the same problems/mistakes
> supporting Adobe Flash format with their Gnash. Shame they didn't give
> HTML5, video, audio tags and Ogg Theora such importance. This is why

Gnash is a GNU project and so is supported by the FSF. HTML 5 and Ogg 
Theora aren't and so aren't. The FSF does support Ogg through Defective 
By Design and PlayOgg, though.

> Flash and also Silverlight has done so well. FSF needs to take the
> lead with vendor neutral standards rather than trying to reverse
> engineer other companies formats.
>
> Gnash still stop priority: http://www.fsf.org/campaigns/priority-projects/

It is *a* top priority project, yes. A free PDF reader is above it in 
the list.

Gnash is a successful project that helps free people from one of the 
last pieces of proprietary software that people feel they cannot live 
without. This makes it highly relevant to most people's daily experience 
of computing, especially younger computer users.

> Obviously Reversible GDB debugging is top priority, not.  Sorry for
> being cynical, at least FSFE is more relevant.

GDB isn't in desperate need of funding as far as I am aware. Gnash is. 
That's why it's a priority project.
(Continue reading)

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Sam Tuke | 16 Sep 2010 13:59
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Re: New FSFE Free PDF Readers Campaign

On Thursday 16 September 2010 13:47:21 Rob Myers wrote:
> A free PDF reader is above it in 
> the list.

I met the lead GNUPDF developer last November at FSCONS and he said that the 
project would achieve full read and write ISO PDF compliance. He also said 
that the libraries that they would develop would likely be used by other 
existing FS PDF software as they would be more complete.

However I haven't heard anything more about GNUPDF since then, and their 
website has not been updated in nearly a year.

Its worth bearing in mind however that for possibly 90% of scenarios existing 
FS PDF readers are capable. Acrobat reader may not achieve much more than this 
for all I know, and as I have already mentioned, they have problems of their 
own.

So long as we are only comparing readers, its also worth bearing in mind that 
some FS PDF readers have original features not implemented by Adobe.

Thanks,

Sam.

_______________________________________________
Fsfe-uk mailing list
Fsfe-uk <at> gnu.org
http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/fsfe-uk
(Continue reading)

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Sam Tuke | 16 Sep 2010 12:37
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Re: New FSFE Free PDF Readers Campaign

On Thursday 16 September 2010 12:17:38 Ralph Corderoy wrote:
> are any of the free PDF
> readers at the level where they can substitute for this type of use?

I don't have an answer yet for this particular case, but I think that its 
important not to compare all Free Software PDF readers to Acrobat Reader and 
turn it into a yardstick.

Acrobat Reader has many problems of its own, including incompatibility with 
government forms which meet ISO standards in cases where FS readers succeed, 
in some cases. It also has a history of serious security vulnerabilities.

Governments aren't obliged to stick to ISO PDF standards in the documents that 
they create, and when they don't, FS PDF readers can't be blamed for problems 
with reading them.

Therefore the question should not be "are any Free Software PDF readers as 
good as Adobe's?" but rather "do any Free Software PDF readers fully implement 
ISO PDF standards?", or in cases of specific complex PDF forms "does this form 
conform to ISO PDF standards? If not, why not?".

Trying to chase Adobe's non standard implementation of PDF is a hopeless 
endeavour - we should all be chasing full ISO standard compliance, and this 
includes the governments who publish documents in PDF.

Thanks,

Sam.

(Continue reading)






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Tom Chance
 | 
17 Sep 2010 23:13






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Re: New FSFE Free PDF Readers Campaign


Sam,

On 16 September 2010 11:37, Sam Tuke <samtuke <at> fsfe.org> wrote:

> On Thursday 16 September 2010 12:17:38 Ralph Corderoy wrote:
> > are any of the free PDF
> > readers at the level where they can substitute for this type of use?
>
> I don't have an answer yet for this particular case, but I think that its
> important not to compare all Free Software PDF readers to Acrobat Reader
> and
> turn it into a yardstick.
>
> Acrobat Reader has many problems of its own, including incompatibility with
> government forms which meet ISO standards in cases where FS readers
> succeed,
> in some cases. It also has a history of serious security vulnerabilities.
>
>
That may be the case, but if you are trying to fill in your tax forms the
lack of proper forms functionality matters more to you than ISO
compatibility and past security vulnerabilities, and most probably you will
never have heard of the latter anyway.

If you wanted to stimulate debate in the free software-friendly parts of the
IT industry about PDF standards and readers, you could take this line.

If your aim is to persuade government IT bods to change their web sites, you
need to be sure the web site you want them to point to serves their
citizens' basic needs.

(Continue reading)






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Sam Tuke
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15 Sep 2010 11:55






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Re: New FSFE Free PDF Readers Campaign


On Tuesday 14 September 2010 23:33:09 Jon Grant wrote:
> This page looks good, but is incredibly wide.

Submitted as bug to our web team,

> I'd be even more interested in government websites providing their
> documents in non-PDF format though. Something like HMTL, or even
> OpenOffice format etc.  How about launching a campaign to get
> governments to stop using PDFs instead of web pages? It is such a pain
> to try edit/re-use anything published in only a PDF file.

PDF is an ISO standard for which there are several Free Software 
implementations. As such, it is one of the better file formats for those 
organisations to use (much better than .doc or part of an online only viewer 
application).

I fully agree with you that PDF has some serious accessibility and portability 
issues. By itself however this is not a concern directly related to Free 
Software.

FSFE has a separate campaign for promoting the use of Open Document Format; 
information can be found here:

http://documentfreedom.org/
http://www.fsfe.org/news/2010/news-20100302-01.en.html
http://www.fsfe.org/projects/os/os.en.html

As an ongoing effort FSFE encourages governments and the EU as a whole to use 
this open standard, and has had major victories in this field.


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Jon
 | 
19 Sep 2010 14:16





Re: New FSFE Free PDF Readers Campaign


Sam Tuke wrote, On 15/09/10 10:55:
[.]
> PDF is an ISO standard for which there are several Free Software 
> implementations. As such, it is one of the better file formats for those 
> organisations to use (much better than .doc or part of an online only viewer 
> application).

Reluctantly, I find DOC far more useful than PDF, as I can edit it in 
OpenOffice.org. There are actually plenty of DOC readers like AbiWord 
and KOffice etc. (My end goal is always to get everyone to adopt ODF!)

Off this topic, but Fonts are the other issue lacking on GNU/Linux 
distros. As none will make FreeSans or Liberation font's show up as 
"Arial" and "Tahoma" etc in wordprocessor. So when I open the DOC 
files I get emailed from clients (no possibility to convince them to 
use OO), the font matching chooses some other font which has no 
resemblence, and then when I send back.. they get he same problems, as 
it now needs Liberation or FreeSans.

My company would fund development of someone to prepare an "Arial" 
font package and get it into the latest Ubuntu distro repository. This 
package just needs to contain the renamed "Liberation" font files. It 
can't be that difficult can it?

The reason I propose this development is to save everyone needing to 
install ms core fonts package (containing their Arial)

Cheers, Jon






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