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NM Public | 18 Aug 2006 12:13

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Understanding Pine incoming-folders and incoming-archive-folders

Beartooth and I are in the midst of setting up his system so he 
can 1) use Pine to access multiple IMAP accounts and 2) run Pine 
on multiple computers. My goal is to *not* simply walk him 
through setting this all up. Instead I want him to understand 
what's going on (and I think that's what Beartooth wants too). 
Before we can continue, there are three things that are 
essential to understand:

   * Pine's primary collection
   * Pine's Incoming-Folders collection
   * Pine's incoming-archive-folders variable

I've updated my Power Pine page to try to make these clear, but 
I am sure that what I've written can be improved. Please read 
the following sections of my Power Pine page and post any 
questions or comments you have about this. I know it is 
confusing!

   Pine's primary collection
   <http://www.ii.com/internet/messaging/pine/pc/#collectionTips>

The first bullet in this "Collection Tips" section discusses the 
Pine "primary folder collection". Understanding this will, I 
hope, help you to understand some of the problems you 
(Beartooth) are having with your incoming-archive-folders.

  Using the Incoming-Folders Collection (aka Pine Shortcuts)
  <http://www.ii.com/internet/messaging/pine/pc/#recentIF>

I've rewritten a lot of this section to try to make Pine

(Continue reading)

Beartooth | 18 Aug 2006 19:25

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Re: Understanding Pine incoming-folders and incoming-archive-folders

On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 11:13:40 +0100, NM Public wrote:

> Beartooth and I are in the midst of setting up his system so he 
> can 1) use Pine to access multiple IMAP accounts and 2) run Pine 
> on multiple computers. My goal is to *not* simply walk him 
> through setting this all up. Instead I want him to understand 
> what's going on (and I think that's what Beartooth wants too).

Yes, definitely; as far back as I can remember, I've always had an
awful time trying to do anything I didn't understand. But there are levels
of understanding, and only so much time. I certainly need more
understanding than I've got now, though. 

> Before we can continue, there are three things that are essential to
> understand:
> 
>    * Pine's primary collection
>    * Pine's Incoming-Folders collection
>    * Pine's incoming-archive-folders variable
> 
> I've updated my Power Pine page to try to make these clear, but I am
> sure that what I've written can be improved. Please read the following
> sections of my Power Pine page and post any questions or comments you
> have about this. I know it is confusing!

Confusing is precisely the mot juste here. The difficulty is not depth, in
the sense of poetry or higher math (both of which I've studied
extensively), but trying to juggle umpteen thoughts and definitions at the
same time.

(Continue reading)

NM Public | 18 Aug 2006 20:33

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Re: Understanding Pine incoming-folders and

> Here the juggling may get worse yet. You (Nancy) refer to the
> folder-collections setting in .pinerc. On titan (the machine
> on which I mainly run pine, usually under ssh), I have the
> following :
>
> .pine.pwd
> .pinerc
> .pinerc-05-10-06
> .pinerc_05_12_06
> .pinerc-2006-04-12.Bkup
> .pinerc.old
>
> I'll assume only plain .pinerc is what pine will look in, 
[deleted]

Since you are using a remote pinerc, the best way to determine 
your primary collection (and any pine setting) is to use MSC, 
i.e.:

  Main > Setup > Config

and then use ^W to search for 'folder-collections'. Please copy 
and paste what you see in that section of your Pine SETUP 
CONFIGURATION screen.

Thanks,
Nancy

Beartooth | 18 Aug 2006 21:51

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Re: Understanding Pine incoming-folders and

On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 19:33:27 +0100, NM Public wrote:

>> Here the juggling may get worse yet. You (Nancy) refer to the
>> folder-collections setting in .pinerc. [...]
>> I'll assume only plain .pinerc is what pine will look in, 
> [deleted]
> 
> Since you are using a remote pinerc, the best way to determine 
> your primary collection (and any pine setting) is to use MSC, 
> i.e.:
> 
>   Main > Setup > Config
> 
> and then use ^W to search for 'folder-collections'. Please copy 
> and paste what you see in that section of your Pine SETUP 
> CONFIGURATION screen.

Trying to C&p into Pan put humongous long lines there; I can't very well
reformat them to match what I see, since I can't see all of it at once,
either. In fact, I'm not really sure what it copied. I've noticed lately
that I have trouble, for instance, copying a long URL in pine text if I
want to paste it into a non-default browser ...

Cutting and pasting piecemeal, I *seem* to be seeing this (all one line,
with a space between FM-inbox and {mail... :

Change field incoming-folders list entry : FM-inbox
{mail.messagingengine.com/ssl/novalidate-cert/user=beartooth@...}INBOX

That is often a problem with long entries, btw. If there's any way to

(Continue reading)

Beartooth | 18 Aug 2006 21:59

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Re: Understanding Pine incoming-folders and

Ye gods & little fishes! What the blankety-blank happened??

On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 15:51:31 -0400, Beartooth wrote:

> Cutting and pasting piecemeal, I *seem* to be seeing this (all one line,
> with a space between FM-inbox and {mail... :
> 
> Change field incoming-folders list entry : FM-inbox
> {mail.messagingengine.com/ssl/novalidate-cert/user <at> ¹êàYk!LÙ',6z}INBOX

I did NOT. None of that miserable gibberish between user=beartooth and the
} is any doing of mine. It SHOULD have said, after the th,
 <at> mailworks.org}INBOX -- I hope it transmits it cleanly this time.

--

-- 
Beartooth Staffwright, Wordcrafty Squirreler
FC5; Pine 4.64, Pan 0.14.2.91; Privoxy 3.0.3; CXO 5.0.1
Dillo 0.8.5, Opera 9.0, Firefox 1.5, Galeon 2.0.1
Remember I have little idea what I am talking about.

Beartooth | 18 Aug 2006 22:04

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Re: Understanding Pine incoming-folders and

On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 15:59:47 -0400, Beartooth wrote:

> Ye gods & little fishes! What the blankety-blank happened??
> 
> On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 15:51:31 -0400, Beartooth wrote:
> 
>> Cutting and pasting piecemeal, I *seem* to be seeing this (all one line,
>> with a space between FM-inbox and {mail... :
>> 
>> Change field incoming-folders list entry : FM-inbox
>> {mail.messagingengine.com/ssl/novalidate-cert/user <at> ¹êàYk!LÙ',6z}INBOX
> 
> I did NOT. None of that miserable gibberish between user=beartooth and the
> } is any doing of mine. It SHOULD have said, after the th,
>  <at> mailworks.org}INBOX -- I hope it transmits it cleanly this time.

It still didn't. Something in there is triggering some software at gmane.
Ideas??

--

-- 
Beartooth Staffwright, Wordcrafty Squirreler
FC5; Pine 4.64, Pan 0.14.2.91; Privoxy 3.0.3; CXO 5.0.1
Dillo 0.8.5, Opera 9.0, Firefox 1.5, Galeon 2.0.1
Remember I have little idea what I am talking about.

Beartooth | 18 Aug 2006 22:22

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Re: Understanding Pine incoming-folders and

On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 16:04:12 -0400, Beartooth wrote:

>> I did NOT. None of that miserable gibberish between user=beartooth and the
>> } is any doing of mine. It SHOULD have said, after the th,
>>  <at> mailworks.org}INBOX -- I hope it transmits it cleanly this time.
> 
> It still didn't. Something in there is triggering some software at gmane.
> Ideas??

Oh, blast it all! Turns out that was only a sighting shot --what I tried
to send in the first place was wrong, even without the problem in
transmission.

I had started by experimenting with the long line in the previous field,
incoming-folders, and gotten distracted by the intercalated gibberish.

Now we know that the noise enters, is it better to try again, sending the
right info? Or to find some other channel??

--

-- 
Beartooth Staffwright, Wordcrafty Squirreler
FC5; Pine 4.64, Pan 0.14.2.91; Privoxy 3.0.3; CXO 5.0.1
Dillo 0.8.5, Opera 9.0, Firefox 1.5, Galeon 2.0.1
Remember I have little idea what I am talking about.

NM Public | 19 Aug 2006 10:17

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Re: Understanding Pine incoming-folders and

Sur 2006-08-18, Beartooth skribis:
>> It still didn't. Something in there is triggering some software at gmane.
>> Ideas??

Yes, Gmane munges email addresses and any occurrence of the at 
sign ( <at> ) [which will probably be munged when I post this!].

> Now we know that the noise enters, is it better to try again, sending the
> right info? Or to find some other channel??

Yes, please post again and this time do the following:

1] Run pine on titan.

2] Type 'MSC' to view the SETUP CONFIGURATION screen.

3] Type '^W' and search for 'folder-collections' (last time you 
copy & pasted something else).

4] Copy & paste what you see in that section of the SETUP 
CONFIGURATION screen. Do not worry about text that is truncated. 
We are looking at this simply to learn what your "primary folder 
collection" is. There is probably no need (at this point) to know 
what is the truncated text.

5] Do not change anything. We are just looking at this to learn 
about your current settings!

Thanks,
  Nancy

(Continue reading)

Beartooth | 19 Aug 2006 15:59

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Re: Understanding Pine incoming-folders and

On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 09:17:19 +0100, NM Public wrote:

> Sur 2006-08-18, Beartooth skribis:
>>> It still didn't. Something in there is triggering some software at gmane.
>>> Ideas??
> 
> Yes, Gmane munges email addresses and any occurrence of the at 
> sign ( <at> ) [which will probably be munged when I post this!].
> 
> 
>> Now we know that the noise enters, is it better to try again, sending the
>> right info? Or to find some other channel??
> 
> Yes, please post again and this time do the following:
> 
> 1] Run pine on titan.
> 
> 2] Type 'MSC' to view the SETUP CONFIGURATION screen.
> 
> 3] Type '^W' and search for 'folder-collections' (last time you 
> copy & pasted something else).
> 
> 4] Copy & paste what you see in that section of the SETUP 
> CONFIGURATION screen. Do not worry about text that is truncated. 
> We are looking at this simply to learn what your "primary folder 
> collection" is. There is probably no need (at this point) to know 
> what is the truncated text.
> 
> 5] Do not change anything. We are just looking at this to learn 
> about your current settings!

(Continue reading)

NM Public | 20 Aug 2006 09:43

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Re: Understanding Pine incoming-folders and

> folder-collections = "titan.lserv.com IMAP"    {titan.lserv.c
>                      FM    {mail.messagingengine.com/ssl/nova
>                      Mail  mail/[]
> news-collections   = <No Value Set>

This says that you have 3 collections:

   Lserv (IMAP)
   FastMail (IMAP)
   $HOME/mail (on the local* system)

Since Lserv is first in your folder-collections list, it is 
currently** your "primary folder collection" -- bear that in mind 
as you read about Pine's incoming-folders and 
incoming-archive-folders.

Let me know if you have any questions about incoming-folders and 
incoming-archive-folders. My hope is that what I have written on 
my Power Pine page will help you to understand these and to set 
these up yourself *without my needing to walk you through the 
steps*.

Do not hesitate to ask questions. Please ask before you actually 
implement your incoming-folders and incoming-archive-folders 
because it is easy to screw things up (as you've discovered!).

Good luck!
Nancy

*"Local" means the system on which Pine is running. In this case,

(Continue reading)

Beartooth | 21 Aug 2006 22:30

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Re: Understanding Pine incoming-folders and

On Sun, 20 Aug 2006 08:43:25 +0100, NM Public wrote:

> Let me know if you have any questions about incoming-folders and 
> incoming-archive-folders. My hope is that what I have written on 
> my Power Pine page will help you to understand these and to set 
> these up yourself *without my needing to walk you through the 
> steps*.
> 
> Do not hesitate to ask questions. Please ask before you actually 
> implement your incoming-folders and incoming-archive-folders 
> because it is easy to screw things up (as you've discovered!).

I added two or three more incoming folders today, since the ones from
yesterday are working fine. (I hadn't made archiving foldedrs for them
yet.) Suddenly, the tab at the bottom of my INBOX gave me this : 

[Message 407 UID 3488 greater than last 3487]

I have no idea what it's talking about. I removed one new folder, and
things seemed to work, for a while. Now I get another such message, with
different numbers. But this time, that doesn't stop it.

I now have five incoming folders, all of them being archived -- plus the
INBOX. 

The first time the archiving function put a bunch of messages into an
archiving folder, they were all at the bottom, making the sequence odd. I
changed it from arrival to date. (Just in one folder) Maybe that's the UID
problem??

(Continue reading)

Beartooth | 20 Aug 2006 19:30

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Re: Understanding Pine incoming ....

On Sun, 20 Aug 2006 08:43:25 +0100, NM Public wrote:
[....]
> Let me know if you have any questions about incoming-folders and 
> incoming-archive-folders. My hope is that what I have written on 
> my Power Pine page will help you to understand these and to set 
> these up yourself *without my needing to walk you through the 
> steps*.

The faq section on archiving says inter alia :

Tip: To avoid problems when (if) you change your Pine primary collection,
you may want to use a fully qualified folder specification to specify the
second part (the archive folder) of an incoming-archive-folders pair.

This seems not to be one of the places where I can use ^T to get a fully
qualified folder specification -- right? I'll have to look at one
somewhere else (such as in a filter or role where I've gotten it that way,
or by more abstruse methods when, for instance, I get a new local ISP). I
can understand your explanations of what one is, and I think even
recognize one when I see it; but finding that explanation again is often a
problem, and recalling it well enough to construct one, let alone
proofread it, is another. If there's a safe easy way, I'll use it instead.

--

-- 
Beartooth Staffwright, Wordcrafty Squirreler
FC5; Pine 4.64, Pan 0.14.2.91; Privoxy 3.0.3; CXO 5.0.1
Dillo 0.8.5, Opera 9.0, Firefox 1.5, Galeon 2.0.1
Remember I have little idea what I am talking about.

(Continue reading)

NM Public | 22 Aug 2006 12:11

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Re: Understanding Pine incoming ....

> Tip: To avoid problems when (if) you change your Pine primary 
> collection, you may want to use a fully qualified folder 
> specification to specify the second part (the archive folder) 
> of an incoming-archive-folders pair.
>
> This seems not to be one of the places where I can use ^T to 
> get a fully qualified folder specification -- right?

Unfortunately, you're right that ^T doesn't work here -- I'll add 
this to my Pine wish list. Maybe you could post this wish in one 
of the Pine discussion groups?

You can, however, use ^X if the fully qualified folder 
specification is the same as your inbox-path folder.

Let me know if ^X works for you!
Nancy

Beartooth | 22 Aug 2006 18:21

Re: Understanding Pine incoming ....

On Tue, 22 Aug 2006, NM Public wrote:

>> Tip: To avoid problems when (if) you change your Pine primary 
>> collection, you may want to use a fully qualified folder 
>> specification to specify the second part (the archive folder) 
>> of an incoming-archive-folders pair.
>> 
>> This seems not to be one of the places where I can use ^T to 
>> get a fully qualified folder specification -- right?
>
> Unfortunately, you're right that ^T doesn't work here -- I'll 
> add this to my Pine wish list. Maybe you could post this wish 
> in one of the Pine discussion groups?

 	I sent it to the one on gmane, and got an 
acknowledgement; I may not be subscribed to that one ...

> You can, however, use ^X if the fully qualified folder 
> specification is the same as your inbox-path folder.
>
> Let me know if ^X works for you!

 	It worked just now when I added an incoming folder -- 
took the full form from Lserv -- and, I think, would have let me 
edit it into one for another ISP.

--

-- 
Beartooth Staffwright,
Wordcrafty Squirreler
Venato ergo sum.

(Continue reading)

NM Public | 23 Aug 2006 09:38

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Re: Understanding Pine incoming ....

>> Unfortunately, you're right that ^T doesn't work here -- I'll
>> add this to my Pine wish list. Maybe you could post this wish
>> in one of the Pine discussion groups?
>
>  	I sent it to the one on gmane, and got an acknowledgement; I
> may not be subscribed to that one ...

Thank you, let's hope that ^T will work for incoming-folder 
specifications in the upcoming Alpine (Apache-Licensed Pine)!

>> You can, however, use ^X if the fully qualified folder
>> specification is the same as your inbox-path folder.
>>
>> Let me know if ^X works for you!
>
>  	It worked just now when I added an incoming folder -- took
> the full form from Lserv -- and, I think, would have let me
> edit it into one for another ISP.

Excellent. Another trick is to temporarily change your 
inbox-path while you add nicknames for folders on that (the 
temporary) inbox-path's server. When you're done setting up 
those nicknames, switch the inbox-path back to what you really 
want for your inbox-path. It's a hack, but it works!

Nancy

Beartooth | 23 Aug 2006 16:24

Re: Understanding Pine incoming ....

On Wed, 23 Aug 2006, NM Public wrote:

> Thank you, let's hope that ^T will work for incoming-folder 
> specifications in the upcoming Alpine (Apache-Licensed Pine)!

 	As you may have noticed, at least the feature request did 
make it to the list. (It turns out I *was* subscribed, and set to 
nomail; what made me doubt it was an oddly worded auto-ack from 
another subscriber.)

>
> Excellent. Another trick is to temporarily change your 
> inbox-path while you add nicknames for folders on that (the 
> temporary) inbox-path's server. When you're done setting up 
> those nicknames, switch the inbox-path back to what you really 
> want for your inbox-path. It's a hack, but it works!

 	You mean, for instance, when I go to add the new local 
ISP one of these days (or if I were to add Adelphia back now), I 
would change the path in the entry for my main INBOX temporarily 
to that for the new one, add other folders to the collection for 
it, and then change the INBOX back to Lserv?

--

-- 
Beartooth Staffwright,
Wordcrafty Squirreler
Venato ergo sum.

NM Public | 23 Aug 2006 19:56

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Re: Understanding Pine incoming ....

Sur 23 August 2006 07:24:49 -0700, Beartooth e'crit:
>> Another trick is to temporarily change your
>> inbox-path while you add nicknames for folders on that (the
>> temporary) inbox-path's server. When you're done setting up
>> those nicknames, switch the inbox-path back to what you
>> really  want for your inbox-path. It's a hack, but it works!
>
>  	You mean, for instance, when I go to add the new local ISP
> one of these days (or if I were to add Adelphia back now), I
> would change the path in the entry for my main INBOX
> temporarily to that for the new one, add other folders to the
> collection for it, and then change the INBOX back to Lserv?

Yep, but I recommend that you not do that hack until you need 
it. Let's try to keep things working for now!

  -nancy

Beartooth | 20 Aug 2006 19:16

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Re: Understanding Pine incoming-folders and

On Sun, 20 Aug 2006 08:43:25 +0100, NM Public wrote:
[...]
> Let me know if you have any questions about incoming-folders and 
> incoming-archive-folders. My hope is that what I have written on 
> my Power Pine page will help you to understand these and to set 
> these up yourself *without my needing to walk you through the 
> steps*.

I just thought of another. You point out, *very* helpfully, in the new
incoming-folder section of the faq that an "incoming folder" is really a
nickname for an already existing folder. Does that mean it's in fact a
pointer to it? So that what I see among my incoming folders and again in
each of two folder-collections, is all really one folder -- and takes up
only one folder's space on my host's machine?

--

-- 
Beartooth Staffwright, Wordcrafty Squirreler
FC5; Pine 4.64, Pan 0.14.2.91; Privoxy 3.0.3; CXO 5.0.1
Dillo 0.8.5, Opera 9.0, Firefox 1.5, Galeon 2.0.1
Remember I have little idea what I am talking about.

NM Public | 22 Aug 2006 12:06

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Re: Understanding Pine incoming-folders and

> I just thought of another. You point out, *very* helpfully, in 
> the new incoming-folder section of the faq that an "incoming 
> folder" is really a nickname for an already existing folder. 
> Does that mean it's in fact a pointer to it? So that what I see 
> among my incoming folders and again in each of two 
> folder-collections, is all really one folder -- and takes up 
> only one folder's space on my host's machine?

Yes, a Pine incoming folder is a pointer. And yes, the seemingly 
replicated folders are all just different names (or pointers) to 
one single folder. I'll update my Power Pine page so it says 
something like this.

Thank you!
Nancy

Beartooth | 20 Aug 2006 19:07

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Re: Understanding Pine incoming-folders and

On Sun, 20 Aug 2006 08:43:25 +0100, NM Public wrote:

>> folder-collections = "titan.lserv.com IMAP"    {titan.lserv.c
>>                      FM    {mail.messagingengine.com/ssl/nova
>>                      Mail  mail/[]
>> news-collections   = <No Value Set>
> 
> 
> This says that you have 3 collections:
> 
>    Lserv (IMAP)
>    FastMail (IMAP)
>    $HOME/mail (on the local* system)

OK, and I note that the third seems to have *almost* identical folders to
the first -- the overlap is not quite 100%.

What's more, when I checked a couple, ARTEMIS for instance had the same
most recent message as ARTEMIS in the other collection.

> Since Lserv is first in your folder-collections list, it is currently**
> your "primary folder collection" -- bear that in mind as you read about
> Pine's incoming-folders and incoming-archive-folders.
> 
> Let me know if you have any questions about incoming-folders and
> incoming-archive-folders. My hope is that what I have written on my
> Power Pine page will help you to understand these and to set these up
> yourself *without my needing to walk you through the steps*.

I think we have success with the incoming folders. The new FAQ

(Continue reading)

NM Public | 22 Aug 2006 11:56

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Re: Understanding Pine incoming-folders and

>> This says that you have 3 collections:
>>
>>    Lserv (IMAP)
>>    FastMail (IMAP)
>>    $HOME/mail (on the local* system)
>
> OK, and I note that the third seems to have *almost* identical 
> folders to the first -- the overlap is not quite 100%.
>
> What's more, when I checked a couple, ARTEMIS for instance had 
> the same most recent message as ARTEMIS in the other 
> collection.

That's because these collections *are* the same. When you access 
those folders via the first collection, you are using IMAP and 
when you access them via the third collection, you are using 
local system calls. IMAP is preferred and the third collection is 
there only for emergencies. Please change the nickname for the 
third collection to something like this:

    Local (only for emergency use)

I hope that makes sense!
Nancy

Beartooth | 22 Aug 2006 15:49

Re: Understanding Pine incoming-folders and

On Tue, 22 Aug 2006, NM Public wrote:

>> 
>> OK, and I note that the third seems to have *almost* identical 
>> folders to the first -- the overlap is not quite 100%.
>> 
>> What's more, when I checked a couple, ARTEMIS for instance had 
>> the same most recent message as ARTEMIS in the other 
>> collection.
>
> That's because these collections *are* the same. When you 
> access those folders via the first collection, you are using 
> IMAP and when you access them via the third collection, you are 
> using local system calls. IMAP is preferred and the third 
> collection is there only for emergencies.

 	Last time I looked, there was at least one folder (called 
.subscriptions, or something like that) in one but not the other 
-- or at least not up at the top of the list. Had I better check 
that again??

> Please change the nickname for the third collection to 
> something like this:
>
>   Local (only for emergency use)
>
> I hope that makes sense!

 	Lots of sense, but as usual there's a hook or a wrinkle. 
The Rename function in the L screen won't bite on it, claiming no

(Continue reading)

NM Public | 23 Aug 2006 09:47

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Re: Understanding Pine incoming-folders and

>> That's because these collections *are* the same. When you
>> access those folders via the first collection, you are using
>> IMAP and when you access them via the third collection, you
>> are  using local system calls. IMAP is preferred and the
>> third  collection is there only for emergencies.
>
>  	Last time I looked, there was at least one folder (called
> .subscriptions, or something like that) in one but not the
> other -- or at least not up at the top of the list. Had I
> better check that again??

My guess is that you are seeing "dot folders" like 
.subscriptions in the Local collection, but not in the IMAP 
collection. This is because the IMAP protocol is hiding the IMAP 
server's special files, while the Local collection uses local 
system calls (like 'ls -a') and exposes everything. This is one 
of the reasons that using the IMAP collection is better than 
using the Local collection, e.g., you won't accidentally screw 
up the special IMAP files.

More about the Local "emergency-only" collection in another 
message,
Nancy

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