John Heim | 25 Jul 2012 22:01

high performance computing

Anybody know of an email list for people to talk about high performance 
computing? I need to just get some general understanding of the concepts. It 
looks like most HPC machines run linux. My department has $200K to spend and 
I'd like to find out what kinds of systems we can get for that kind of 
money. The people using the machine have their own specific needs but they 
are counting on me to help them out with expandability. So they can tell me 
it needs X number os and Y Gb of RAM. But then they're expecting me to tell 
them what they can get for that $200K.

processors

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Stephen Haywood | 26 Jul 2012 17:17
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Re: high performance computing

I believe there are some guys on the chugalug list in Chattanooga that have experience with HPC. http://chugalug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/chugalug

On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 4:01 PM, John Heim <john-Z+tRoT2Tcg3k1uMJSBkQmQ@public.gmane.org> wrote:
Anybody know of an email list for people to talk about high performance
computing? I need to just get some general understanding of the concepts. It
looks like most HPC machines run linux. My department has $200K to spend and
I'd like to find out what kinds of systems we can get for that kind of
money. The people using the machine have their own specific needs but they
are counting on me to help them out with expandability. So they can tell me
it needs X number os and Y Gb of RAM. But then they're expecting me to tell
them what they can get for that $200K.

processors


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leam hall | 26 Jul 2012 17:18
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Re: high performance computing

On 7/25/12, John Heim <john@...> wrote:
> Anybody know of an email list for people to talk about high performance
> computing? I need to just get some general understanding of the concepts. It

John,

I'd start at http://www.linuxhpc.org/  No experience with HPC myself
but this seems right.

Leam

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Vernard Martin | 26 Jul 2012 17:19

Re: high performance computing

On 7/25/2012 4:01 PM, John Heim wrote:
> Anybody know of an email list for people to talk about high performance
> computing? I need to just get some general understanding of the concepts. It
> looks like most HPC machines run linux. My department has $200K to spend and
> I'd like to find out what kinds of systems we can get for that kind of
> money. The people using the machine have their own specific needs but they
> are counting on me to help them out with expandability. So they can tell me
> it needs X number os and Y Gb of RAM. But then they're expecting me to tell
> them what they can get for that $200K.
>
By far the most useful group for this sort of thing is the Beowulf 
Mailing list (beowulf@...). Subscribe to it and be polite as you 
ask your questions. You might also try to search the archives. You can 
probably get the answers to your questions right there.

If you need answers faster then drop me an email. HPC linux clusters is 
my specialty and I deal with this stuff every day.

Vernard

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leam hall | 26 Jul 2012 17:58
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Re: high performance computing

Wow, I just went back to the LinuxHPC site and realized it's
officially dormant. Will keep Vernard's info handy, HPC is cool but
not my skill set.

Is there any reason to raise the HPC site back up?

Leam

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Jeff Layton | 26 Jul 2012 18:46
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Re: high performance computing

  On 07/26/2012 11:19 AM, Vernard Martin wrote:
> On 7/25/2012 4:01 PM, John Heim wrote:
>> Anybody know of an email list for people to talk about high performance
>> computing? I need to just get some general understanding of the concepts. It
>> looks like most HPC machines run linux. My department has $200K to spend and
>> I'd like to find out what kinds of systems we can get for that kind of
>> money. The people using the machine have their own specific needs but they
>> are counting on me to help them out with expandability. So they can tell me
>> it needs X number os and Y Gb of RAM. But then they're expecting me to tell
>> them what they can get for that $200K.
>>
> By far the most useful group for this sort of thing is the Beowulf
> Mailing list (beowulf@...). Subscribe to it and be polite as you
> ask your questions. You might also try to search the archives. You can
> probably get the answers to your questions right there.
>

The Beowulf list is all but dead. When Don Becker left Penguin
to go to Nvidia the list basically died (and the signal/noise ratio
got really bad).

I'm been doing HPC for a bit north of 25 years in various capacities.
User, coder, admin, vendor sales, author, etc. I currently write for
a couple of websites and I've written for various magazines and
websites in the past.

While I do work for a vendor I will do my very best not to behave like
one on this list :)  So fire away - what are your questions?

Thanks!

Jeff

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John Heim | 26 Jul 2012 19:27

Re: high performance computing

From: "Jeff Layton" <laytonjb@...>
To: "Atlanta Linux Enthusiasts" <ale@...>
> While I do work for a vendor I will do my very best not to behave like
> one on this list :)  So fire away - what are your questions?
>

The immediate issue is to decide which vendors to contact. The principle 
investigator is doing parallelized FFTs  so I don't know the maximum cores 
he could use but he could probably use as many as we can get. He is writing 
a grant proposal asking for $200K - $300K.

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Jim Kinney | 26 Jul 2012 19:59
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Re: high performance computing

It's pretty amazing what $10k will buy these days! Dual chip, 16-core
Opterons with 256GB DDR3 RAM.

The hardware you buy is based the problems to solve. FFT is floating
point so GPU is not an option. Also FFT is (typically) reasonable data
sizes so RAM is good but it's really all a CPU process. So you'll want
a CPU with the largest L2 and L3 caches you can get.

I've ordered test systems from 8anet.com and production servers from Microway.

If the problem can be broken into many discrete parts, high speed
interconnect is not needed. If the problem requires interim, parallel
checkpoint or shared memory in any form, Don't get cheap with gig
ethernet unless the data exchange is very small. Get the Infiniband
and don't look back. It's less expensive per unit of throughput than
10G ethernet.

On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 1:27 PM, John Heim <john@...> wrote:
> From: "Jeff Layton" <laytonjb@...>
> To: "Atlanta Linux Enthusiasts" <ale@...>
>> While I do work for a vendor I will do my very best not to behave like
>> one on this list :)  So fire away - what are your questions?
>>
>
> The immediate issue is to decide which vendors to contact. The principle
> investigator is doing parallelized FFTs  so I don't know the maximum cores
> he could use but he could probably use as many as we can get. He is writing
> a grant proposal asking for $200K - $300K.
>
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> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo

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gain at one end you lose at the other. It's like feeding a dog on his
own tail. It won't fatten the dog.
- Speech 11/23/1900 Mark Twain

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Jeff Layton | 26 Jul 2012 19:47
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Re: high performance computing

  On 07/26/2012 01:27 PM, John Heim wrote:
> From: "Jeff Layton"<laytonjb@...>
> To: "Atlanta Linux Enthusiasts"<ale@...>
>> While I do work for a vendor I will do my very best not to behave like
>> one on this list :)  So fire away - what are your questions?
>>
> The immediate issue is to decide which vendors to contact. The principle
> investigator is doing parallelized FFTs  so I don't know the maximum cores
> he could use but he could probably use as many as we can get. He is writing
> a grant proposal asking for $200K - $300K.
>

There are lots of vendors to contact (including the one I work for :)  ).

Can you say a little more about the application? 2D FFT's? 3D FFT's?
Is the code parallelized via MPI or OpenMP or both? Is the code written
with CUDA? How many cores or processes are used per run?

Does he need to write additional code? Which compilers do they
use or like?

How large are the input/output files?

Thanks!

Jeff

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Jim Kinney | 26 Jul 2012 20:33
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Re: high performance computing

FFT with CUDA?? All the FFT code I've seen is floating point which
CUDA can't do.

On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 1:47 PM, Jeff Layton <laytonjb@...> wrote:
>   On 07/26/2012 01:27 PM, John Heim wrote:
>> From: "Jeff Layton"<laytonjb@...>
>> To: "Atlanta Linux Enthusiasts"<ale@...>
>>> While I do work for a vendor I will do my very best not to behave like
>>> one on this list :)  So fire away - what are your questions?
>>>
>> The immediate issue is to decide which vendors to contact. The principle
>> investigator is doing parallelized FFTs  so I don't know the maximum cores
>> he could use but he could probably use as many as we can get. He is writing
>> a grant proposal asking for $200K - $300K.
>>
>
> There are lots of vendors to contact (including the one I work for :)  ).
>
> Can you say a little more about the application? 2D FFT's? 3D FFT's?
> Is the code parallelized via MPI or OpenMP or both? Is the code written
> with CUDA? How many cores or processes are used per run?
>
> Does he need to write additional code? Which compilers do they
> use or like?
>
> How large are the input/output files?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Jeff
>
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> Ale@...
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Every time you stop a school, you will have to build a jail. What you
gain at one end you lose at the other. It's like feeding a dog on his
own tail. It won't fatten the dog.
- Speech 11/23/1900 Mark Twain

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Jeff Layton | 26 Jul 2012 20:45
Ed Cashin | 27 Jul 2012 03:06
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Re: high performance computing

Do folks use The Fastest Fourier Transform in the West these days?

http://www.fftw.org/

On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 2:45 PM, Jeff Layton <laytonjb@...> wrote:
>   On 07/26/2012 02:33 PM, Jim Kinney wrote:
>> FFT with CUDA?? All the FFT code I've seen is floating point which
>> CUDA can't do.
>
> Sure. It's very common and comes with CUDA.
>
> CuFFT:
> http://developer.download.nvidia.com/compute/DevZone/docs/html/CUDALibraries/doc/CUFFT_Library.pdf
> http://developer.download.nvidia.com/GTC/PDF/GTC2012/PresentationPDF/S0209-GTC2012-3D-FFT-CUDA-4.pdf
> http://developer.download.nvidia.com/compute/cuda/2_2/sdk/website/projects/convolutionFFT2D/doc/convolutionFFT2D.pdf
>
> https://sites.google.com/site/zilong308/cuda/cuda-fft-library-cufft
> http://blogs.hoopoe-cloud.com/index.php/2009/01/using-cuda-fft-from-fortran/
>
> Jeff
>
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John Heim | 26 Jul 2012 23:07

Re: high performance computing

From: "Jeff Layton" <laytonjb@...>
To: "Atlanta Linux Enthusiasts" <ale@...>
> There are lots of vendors to contact (including the one I work for :)  ).
>
> Can you say a little more about the application? 2D FFT's? 3D FFT's?
> Is the code parallelized via MPI or OpenMP or both? Is the code written
> with CUDA? How many cores or processes are used per run?
>
> Does he need to write additional code? Which compilers do they
> use or like?

I'm pretty sure the PI  hasn't written much of the code yet.  He's working 
with someone who's previous work was done on an SGI Altix running suse 
linux. I would assume that the two of them are working on an extension of 
the second guy's previous work.   Actually, the second guy is a gal.  Not 
that it matters but I think she'd appreciate being referred to as a she even 
on an anonymous email list.

Anyway, the PI mentioned MPI in a meeting so I guess that's it. I never 
heard of CUDA until this moment. I'll have to ask him about that.  I know 
he's writing C++ but I don't know which compiler he is using. If I had to 
guess, I'd say Intel's. But I doubt anybody around here besides me knows how 
to install that and I know I didn't install it on that suse box.

>
> How large are the input/output files?

I'm going to say they are pretty small.  They haven't said anything about 
needing lots of space. I posted here a few weeks ago about setting up a 
distributed network file system. We have a pilot project going with a 300Gb 
glusterfs system. Assuming the PI using the pilot system likes it, I intend 
to do a 1Tb - 2Tb glusterfs depending on how many machines I can pull in.  I 
have to do a re-install to re-partition the drives. Anyway, when I told them 
about the DNFS, they didn't seem impressed.  So I am thinking it doesn't 
apply to their work.

> Thanks!

As trite as it is... No, thank you.
>
> Jeff
>
> 

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Jeff Layton | 26 Jul 2012 23:10
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Re: high performance computing

  On 07/26/2012 05:07 PM, John Heim wrote:
> From: "Jeff Layton"<laytonjb@...>
> To: "Atlanta Linux Enthusiasts"<ale@...>
>> There are lots of vendors to contact (including the one I work for :)  ).
>>
>> Can you say a little more about the application? 2D FFT's? 3D FFT's?
>> Is the code parallelized via MPI or OpenMP or both? Is the code written
>> with CUDA? How many cores or processes are used per run?
>>
>> Does he need to write additional code? Which compilers do they
>> use or like?
> I'm pretty sure the PI  hasn't written much of the code yet.  He's working
> with someone who's previous work was done on an SGI Altix running suse
> linux. I would assume that the two of them are working on an extension of
> the second guy's previous work.   Actually, the second guy is a gal.  Not
> that it matters but I think she'd appreciate being referred to as a she even
> on an anonymous email list.
>
> Anyway, the PI mentioned MPI in a meeting so I guess that's it. I never
> heard of CUDA until this moment. I'll have to ask him about that.  I know
> he's writing C++ but I don't know which compiler he is using. If I had to
> guess, I'd say Intel's. But I doubt anybody around here besides me knows how
> to install that and I know I didn't install it on that suse box.

The follow-up question is whether the FFT's are done locally
or if they are using an MPI based FFT?

However, I think as a starting point, you'll want compute nodes
that have reasonably fast processors, lots of cache (as Jim
pointed out) but you also needs tons of memory BW per core.
FFT's love memory BW!!

If the FFT's themselves are parallelized, then you will definitely
need InfiniBand. FFT's each networks for breakfast (in fact there
was a proposal from John Gustafson at Intel to make a 3D MPI
FFT the new benchmark for HPC since it pushed systems so
hard).

But as Jim pointed out, IB isn't that expensive but for smaller
systems 10GigE is fairly close to IB in terms of cost (the
switches get expensive as you scale the system). However, I still
like IB because for about the same money you get better performance
(Jim pointed this out as well).

CUDA - is the toolkit for programming Nvidia GPUs for running
code. Not a big deal but it might be interesting for them to
develop the application on CPUs and then replace the FFT calls
with calls to CuFFT (CUDA FFT). But that may be down the road
and hopefully it's an easy process.

If you want to talk off-line about more details, I'm more than glad
to help. Just let me know. Or we can continue to talk here if
others don't mind.

Thanks!

Jeff

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Leam Hall | 27 Jul 2012 00:02
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Re: high performance computing

On 07/26/2012 05:10 PM, Jeff Layton wrote:

> If you want to talk off-line about more details, I'm more than glad
> to help. Just let me know. Or we can continue to talk here if
> others don't mind.

No mind here...err...I don't mind.   :)

Leam
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Jim Kinney | 27 Jul 2012 00:17
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Re: high performance computing

On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 5:10 PM, Jeff Layton <laytonjb@...> wrote:

>
> If you want to talk off-line about more details, I'm more than glad
> to help. Just let me know. Or we can continue to talk here if
> others don't mind.

Keep it here if possible!

--

-- 
--
James P. Kinney III

Every time you stop a school, you will have to build a jail. What you
gain at one end you lose at the other. It's like feeding a dog on his
own tail. It won't fatten the dog.
- Speech 11/23/1900 Mark Twain

http://electjimkinney.org
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John Heim | 27 Jul 2012 22:07

Re: high performance computing

From: "Jeff Layton" <laytonjb@...>
To: "Atlanta Linux Enthusiasts" <ale@...>
>
> The follow-up question is whether the FFT's are done locally
> or if they are using an MPI based FFT?
>
> However, I think as a starting point, you'll want compute nodes
> that have reasonably fast processors, lots of cache (as Jim
> pointed out) but you also needs tons of memory BW per core.
> FFT's love memory BW!!
>
> If the FFT's themselves are parallelized, then you will definitely
> need InfiniBand. FFT's each networks for breakfast (in fact there
> was a proposal from John Gustafson at Intel to make a 3D MPI
> FFT the new benchmark for HPC since it pushed systems so
> hard).

I sent the PI your questions.  Here are his answers (somewhat abbreviated 
and w/o personal info).

1. 2D FFT's? 3D FFT's?

Both.  Probably 3D more often then 2D.  But I am working on code right
now that would always be 2code (never 3D).

2. Is the code parallelized via MPI or OpenMP or both?

We have never bothered to explicitly parallelize our code.  We have been 
using the built-in parallelization in  calls to FFTW.

3. Is the code written with CUDA?

No.

4. How many cores or processes are used per run?

We need to have the capability to use at least 64 cores per run, maybe 128 
or 256 if possible within our budget.

5. Which compilers do you use or like?

I think ifort is everybody's favorite.  I use the gnu g95 compiler 
sometimes, but I think it produces slower object modules than ifort.

6. How large are the input/output files?

I create 10 Gb of output data from a serial run on my  desktop iMac 
(although it has typically been closer to 1 Gb per run since I have limited 
disk space here).  So if I had a big parallel run on 64 or more cores, I can 
imagine I could be creating 100 Gb of output
data pretty  easily and maybe even 1 Tb or more.

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Jim Kinney | 27 Jul 2012 22:43
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Re: high performance computing

With the high core count, narrow the cpu focus to the 16 core opterons.

On Jul 27, 2012 4:11 PM, "John Heim" <john-Z+tRoT2Tcg3k1uMJSBkQmQ@public.gmane.org> wrote:
From: "Jeff Layton" <laytonjb-fOdFMYwuEsI@public.gmane.org>
To: "Atlanta Linux Enthusiasts" <ale-S6NtOCTnm14@public.gmane.org>
>
> The follow-up question is whether the FFT's are done locally
> or if they are using an MPI based FFT?
>
> However, I think as a starting point, you'll want compute nodes
> that have reasonably fast processors, lots of cache (as Jim
> pointed out) but you also needs tons of memory BW per core.
> FFT's love memory BW!!
>
> If the FFT's themselves are parallelized, then you will definitely
> need InfiniBand. FFT's each networks for breakfast (in fact there
> was a proposal from John Gustafson at Intel to make a 3D MPI
> FFT the new benchmark for HPC since it pushed systems so
> hard).

I sent the PI your questions.  Here are his answers (somewhat abbreviated
and w/o personal info).

1. 2D FFT's? 3D FFT's?

Both.  Probably 3D more often then 2D.  But I am working on code right
now that would always be 2code (never 3D).

2. Is the code parallelized via MPI or OpenMP or both?

We have never bothered to explicitly parallelize our code.  We have been
using the built-in parallelization in  calls to FFTW.

3. Is the code written with CUDA?

No.

4. How many cores or processes are used per run?

We need to have the capability to use at least 64 cores per run, maybe 128
or 256 if possible within our budget.

5. Which compilers do you use or like?

I think ifort is everybody's favorite.  I use the gnu g95 compiler
sometimes, but I think it produces slower object modules than ifort.

6. How large are the input/output files?

I create 10 Gb of output data from a serial run on my  desktop iMac
(although it has typically been closer to 1 Gb per run since I have limited
disk space here).  So if I had a big parallel run on 64 or more cores, I can
imagine I could be creating 100 Gb of output
data pretty  easily and maybe even 1 Tb or more.

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Jeff Layton | 28 Jul 2012 16:06
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Re: high performance computing

  On 07/27/2012 04:07 PM, John Heim wrote:
> From: "Jeff Layton" <laytonjb@...>
> To: "Atlanta Linux Enthusiasts" <ale@...>
>>
>> The follow-up question is whether the FFT's are done locally
>> or if they are using an MPI based FFT?
>>
>> However, I think as a starting point, you'll want compute nodes
>> that have reasonably fast processors, lots of cache (as Jim
>> pointed out) but you also needs tons of memory BW per core.
>> FFT's love memory BW!!
>>
>> If the FFT's themselves are parallelized, then you will definitely
>> need InfiniBand. FFT's each networks for breakfast (in fact there
>> was a proposal from John Gustafson at Intel to make a 3D MPI
>> FFT the new benchmark for HPC since it pushed systems so
>> hard).
>
> I sent the PI your questions.  Here are his answers (somewhat 
> abbreviated and w/o personal info).
>
> 1. 2D FFT's? 3D FFT's?
>
> Both.  Probably 3D more often then 2D.  But I am working on code right
> now that would always be 2code (never 3D).
>
> 2. Is the code parallelized via MPI or OpenMP or both?
>
> We have never bothered to explicitly parallelize our code.  We have 
> been using the built-in parallelization in  calls to FFTW.
>
> 3. Is the code written with CUDA?
>
> No.
>
> 4. How many cores or processes are used per run?
>
> We need to have the capability to use at least 64 cores per run, maybe 
> 128 or 256 if possible within our budget.
I'm not exactly sure if they have written the main part of the code as a 
serial application and then use fftw routines for the parallel portion 
or not. To me it sounds like they have written the application so that 
it is serial and then they build fftw either threaded 
(http://www.fftw.org/fftw3_doc/Multi_002dthreaded-FFTW.html#Multi_002dthreaded-FFTW) 
or with MPI 
(http://www.fftw.org/fftw3_doc/Distributed_002dmemory-FFTW-with-MPI.html#Distributed_002dmemory-FFTW-with-MPI).

Can you ask which routines they are using?

Thanks!

Jeff

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Gmane