gmane.org.user-groups.linux.cplug.general

Server Grade Hardware Purchase [OT]

I haven't purchased server grade hardware in over a year. In my prior
shop, we would almost always default to Dell. I've heard whispers that
HP is the way to go. I want a machine that I know runs lots of other
places without any trouble rather than something I build from scratch
or someone else tosses together for me and I want something
economical. The server will host an application called MPower and it's
SQL based database. (It's win only now, but they are moving toward the
open source which will include linux and MySQL support I hear.) The
machine will unlikely have more than 5 consecutive users in its
lifetime.

I'm spec'ing out a PowerEdge 2900. I thought some of you guys might
have something better with the latest info and given that it may turn
into a Linux box in the future.

Thanks,
JSR/

--

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Our Mission
Technology and Hospitality for God's Workmen
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Bob K Mertz | 27 Jun 18:17

Re: Server Grade Hardware Purchase [OT]

Take a look at Sun's x86 solutions or SuperMicro.

-----Original Message-----
From: "Josiah Ritchie" <josiah.ritchie <at> gmail.com>

Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 12:04:28 
To:cplug <at> cplug.net
Subject: [CPLUG] Server Grade Hardware Purchase [OT]

I haven't purchased server grade hardware in over a year. In my prior
shop, we would almost always default to Dell. I've heard whispers that
HP is the way to go. I want a machine that I know runs lots of other
places without any trouble rather than something I build from scratch
or someone else tosses together for me and I want something
economical. The server will host an application called MPower and it's
SQL based database. (It's win only now, but they are moving toward the
open source which will include linux and MySQL support I hear.) The
machine will unlikely have more than 5 consecutive users in its
lifetime.

I'm spec'ing out a PowerEdge 2900. I thought some of you guys might
have something better with the latest info and given that it may turn
into a Linux box in the future.

Thanks,
JSR/

-- 
Our Mission

(Continue reading)

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Chris Moates | 27 Jun 20:18

Re: Server Grade Hardware Purchase [OT]

This is as bad as asking "Which distro is the best?" in many ways, as 
experience will vary a lot.

We are about to end of life the last of some SuperMicro machines we 
bought less than 18 months ago due to hardware issues with their RAID 
subsystem which SuperMicro can't seem to resolve. Their support has been 
great, but the end result is still broken servers.

I can't speak for Sun's x86 hardware, but their Sparc hardware, while 
underpowered and overpriced, was always well engineered.

My current and former employer both used Dell heavily. About 100 servers 
here and a few thousand at my last employer. The 2900 series is a good 
low-end server.

I haven't personally used any HP hardware in a decade. As you say 
though, rumor has it it doesn't suck like it used to.

All in all, I can't think of many good reasons to choose Dell over the 
others, based on my limited knowledge. Their support is great, hardware 
replacement is super fast (especially if you pay for the 4 hour 
warranty, or whatever it is called), prices are cheap, Linux support is 
excellent, and the build quality is above average.

Does the vendor of your software have a hardware recommendation?

Chris

Bob K Mertz wrote:
> Take a look at Sun's x86 solutions or SuperMicro.

(Continue reading)

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Chris Moates | 27 Jun 20:22

Re: Server Grade Hardware Purchase [OT]

Chris Moates wrote:
> All in all, I can't think of many good reasons to choose Dell over the 
> others, based on my limited knowledge. Their support is great, 
> hardware replacement is super fast (especially if you pay for the 4 
> hour warranty, or whatever it is called), prices are cheap, Linux 
> support is excellent, and the build quality is above average.
>
That should say, "I can't think of many good reasons NOT to choose Dell..."

Oops :/

Chris

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Stephen Rees | 27 Jun 20:25

Re: Server Grade Hardware Purchase [OT]

The City I work for uses Dell for the majority of our servers, and they
seem great so far (last few years).

-Stephen

On Fri, 2008-06-27 at 14:22 -0400, Chris Moates wrote:
> Chris Moates wrote:
> > All in all, I can't think of many good reasons to choose Dell over the 
> > others, based on my limited knowledge. Their support is great, 
> > hardware replacement is super fast (especially if you pay for the 4 
> > hour warranty, or whatever it is called), prices are cheap, Linux 
> > support is excellent, and the build quality is above average.
> >
> That should say, "I can't think of many good reasons NOT to choose Dell..."
> 
> Oops :/
> 
> Chris
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> CPLUG mailing list
> To unsubscribe send a mail to cplug+unsubscribe@...
> Archives: http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.org.user-groups.linux.cplug.general
>

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Phil Sorber | 27 Jun 20:27

Re: Server Grade Hardware Purchase [OT]

Sun x86 hardware is hit and miss. The v20z and v40z were actually rebrands of 
boxes maybe by another company, but they were pretty good. The Sun in house 
engineered replacements for those were also good. The 32bit intel hardware they 
put out before all of those was sub-par. Not awful, but not great.

When I worked in HPC we had large clusters of IBM, Sun, and Dell hardware. The 
Dell hardware was good enough, cheap enough, and doggonit we liked the service too!

The only thing Sun really had on Dell was AMD Opteron's at the time. We were not 
pleased performance wise with the Intel chipsets, mostly due to memory bus 
architecture bottlenecks. These aren't so much a problem anymore, and probably 
wouldn't effect you even if they were.

Disclaimer: this is all opinion based on my experience.

Chris Moates wrote:
> This is as bad as asking "Which distro is the best?" in many ways, as 
> experience will vary a lot.
> 
> We are about to end of life the last of some SuperMicro machines we 
> bought less than 18 months ago due to hardware issues with their RAID 
> subsystem which SuperMicro can't seem to resolve. Their support has been 
> great, but the end result is still broken servers.
> 
> I can't speak for Sun's x86 hardware, but their Sparc hardware, while 
> underpowered and overpriced, was always well engineered.
> 
> My current and former employer both used Dell heavily. About 100 servers 
> here and a few thousand at my last employer. The 2900 series is a good 
> low-end server.

(Continue reading)

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Bob K Mertz | 27 Jun 21:02

Re: Server Grade Hardware Purchase [OT]

Just to throw in another 4 cents :)

Dell is starting to "industrialize" a little too much recently and  
I've run into huge issues with their equipment not working in a  
certain scenario that it should have.  I've run into this from  
something as simple as their rails are designed with a specific  
purpose (their racks) and you'll end up with huge issues if you get a  
slightly different rack up to hardware firmware which should be  
industry standard has weird quirks.  And when it comes to Linux  
support, well, on a desktop machine you're good to go with Ubuntu but  
on their server hardware you'll likely see issues if you move to  
something other than Red Hat.  I've also seen lots and lots of weird  
issues with the PERC controllers....  random reports of a bad drive  
that really isn't bad, etc.  All of that said, Dell is not bad but  
IMHO they aren't good either.  They just seem to be easier to get.

Recently I came to absolutely LOVE the HP systems and that lasted  
about a week.  It ended abruptly when I needed to install an SSD into  
the system.  Their servers are designed well, they are reliable, and  
their iLO is incredible but the problem comes if you want to do  
anything outside of an HP branded part.  Every single thing you'd want  
to do is an "option" from HP.  The dl320s that I recently have been  
working with has a PCI-X slot, however, in order to use it you must  
buy an option board for it.  Sounds like that might be simple enough  
but try to go find the part you need.... it's a never ending battle.   
To add to this frustration, HP has had dl320 servers for YEARS but  
they never change the model number...  if you go order a part for a  
dl320 you could end up with a part for a 4th gen rather than a 5th gen  
and, of course, it won't work.  There isn't even the standard  
connectors you would expect to see inside the chassis (such as power

(Continue reading)

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Dennis Little | 28 Jun 00:32

Re: Server Grade Hardware Purchase [OT]


On Fri, June 27, 2008 12:04 pm, Josiah Ritchie wrote:
> I haven't purchased server grade hardware in over a year. In my prior
> shop, we would almost always default to Dell. I've heard whispers that
> HP is the way to go. I want a machine that I know runs lots of other

Hey Josiah,

Here are a few of my opinions. Take them for what they are worth.

-HP makes nice hardware, but I will second Bob's opinion of finding
upgrade / add-on parts and forget finding support documentation, drivers,
etc. once the hardware gets any age on it. As a matter of fact, finding
anything on HP's web site is a total bear. They could learn a few things
from support.dell.com. :) HP is fairly notorious for rigging their
equipment to make a piece of otherwise standard hardware proprietary. Case
in point: old LaserJet RAM was simple PC133 RAM with several pins jumpered
to one another. If the printer did not detect the jumpered pins, it would
not recognize the RAM. I did a how-to a few years back about turning
regular RAM into HP printer RAM.

I am in the process of putting two HP 7000 series blade chassis into
production. Thus far, I am impressed, but as I expected, finding
documentation on them is still a little bit hard, even though they are
current. I am not sure how much we will regret buying these when we need
support in a few years.

-Dell has given me no problems whatsoever with various flavors of Linux
(SuSE, Ubuntu, RHEL, BSD) and I like the fact that Dell has less
proprietary hardware than HP. I give Dell tremendous bonus points for

(Continue reading)

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Bob K Mertz | 28 Jun 00:57

Re: Server Grade Hardware Purchase [OT]


On Jun 27, 2008, at 6:32 PM, Dennis Little wrote:

>
> -HP makes nice hardware, but I will second Bob's opinion of finding
> upgrade / add-on parts and forget finding support documentation,  
> drivers,
> etc. once the hardware gets any age on it. As a matter of fact,  
> finding
> anything on HP's web site is a total bear. They could learn a few  
> things
> from support.dell.com. :) HP is fairly notorious for rigging their
> equipment to make a piece of otherwise standard hardware  
> proprietary. Case
> in point: old LaserJet RAM was simple PC133 RAM with several pins  
> jumpered
> to one another. If the printer did not detect the jumpered pins, it  
> would
> not recognize the RAM. I did a how-to a few years back about turning
> regular RAM into HP printer RAM.
>

Interesting.... I wonder if they are doing something similar with the  
RAM for the servers (thus explaining the problems we've been having)

>
> -Dell has given me no problems whatsoever with various flavors of  
> Linux
> (SuSE, Ubuntu, RHEL, BSD) and I like the fact that Dell has less
> proprietary hardware than HP. I give Dell tremendous bonus points for

(Continue reading)

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Dennis Little | 28 Jun 02:40

Re: Server Grade Hardware Purchase [OT]


On Fri, June 27, 2008 6:57 pm, Bob K Mertz wrote:
>
> Interesting.... I wonder if they are doing something similar with the
> RAM for the servers (thus explaining the problems we've been having)
>
Probably. :) The "HP RAM" conversion process literally involved soldering
wires between pins on the RAM and then it magically worked. What a scam...

> I do have to give Dell credit for the support page and for the fact
> that they are supporters of open source but on that note I think Sun
> probably has a much better support for open source issues.  I also

Hm.. good to know. I know that I have always been impressed with how well
built Sun servers are, if nothing else.

> especially true with a lot of the PERC controllers and, to be honest,
> I think PERC is my biggest gripe about Dell.  From my experience they
> have been total crap.  I used to work for a company that used all Dell
Yeah, I agree with you here and you have a good point. To be honest, my
builds usually just do software RAID and those situations where I do
hardware, it is with 3Ware controllers. They have their quirks too, but
are not nearly as bad as some of the PERC (Adaptec) models.

> (we're talking about 15 racks of dell servers) and I was daily walking
> around reseating drives because PERC controllers (incorrectly) said it
> was a bad drive.  Once you'd pull a drive out and put it back in it
> would think "oh, new drive" and would run for months or years without

LOL We have had the same problem recently. It is good to know that someone

(Continue reading)

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Dean Gaitanis | 28 Jun 01:56

Re: Server Grade Hardware Purchase [OT]

I actually just built a Dell 2900 III for a client's web application.
Dual quad-core and 4GB or ram. 7 SAS drives .... ooooh baby this machine rocks.

I have Win 2003 server R2 on there ... SQL Server 2005 ... running a dotNET web app we built.
It is fast!!

For winbloze ... works great. I did not try to install linux on it.

On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 12:04 PM, Josiah Ritchie <josiah.ritchie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:

I haven't purchased server grade hardware in over a year. In my prior
shop, we would almost always default to Dell. I've heard whispers that
HP is the way to go. I want a machine that I know runs lots of other
places without any trouble rather than something I build from scratch
or someone else tosses together for me and I want something
economical. The server will host an application called MPower and it's
SQL based database. (It's win only now, but they are moving toward the
open source which will include linux and MySQL support I hear.) The
machine will unlikely have more than 5 consecutive users in its
lifetime.

I'm spec'ing out a PowerEdge 2900. I thought some of you guys might
have something better with the latest info and given that it may turn
into a Linux box in the future.

Thanks,
JSR/

--
Our Mission
Technology and Hospitality for God's Workmen
http://missions.ritchietribe.net

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Josiah Ritchie | 28 Jun 02:29

Re: Server Grade Hardware Purchase [OT]

On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 7:56 PM, Dean Gaitanis <deanlo@...> wrote:
> I actually just built a Dell 2900 III for a client's web application.
> Dual quad-core and 4GB or ram. 7 SAS drives .... ooooh baby this machine
> rocks.
>
> I have Win 2003 server R2 on there ... SQL Server 2005 ... running a dotNET
> web app we built.
> It is fast!!
>
> For winbloze ... works great. I did not try to install linux on it.

Thanks everybody! Some great info. I think I'll stick with Dell.

JSR/

--

-- 
Our Mission
Technology and Hospitality for God's Workmen
http://missions.ritchietribe.net

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Jeff Best | 2 Jul 17:47

Re: Server Grade Hardware Purchase [OT]

JSR,

Sorry for the lat reply, I should open my cplug mail folder more often.

I set up at least one or two servers a week. Mostly W2K3 standard or enterprise.

Here is an overview of what I've been working with lately.

IBM $$$$$ XSeries 336's, Its cable management arms are a PITA. We have 4 hour support on these, if the parts are local, its a great thing. Latest problem was one that is ~4 years old, first showed drive errors, then raid controllers, then the MB failed. I think it was a bad MB all along. In any event they sent both the parts and someone to install them, I didn't care either way but after the third call I gave up and let them work on it till it was running 100% again.

HP $$$$ DL380 series Generation 3's and 4's are what we have the most of. They are well built, haven't had many parts issues, mostly failed drives. With 300 + servers, it happens.

Dell $$$ 2950 Series, they are going for a total revamp of their number scheme in the next month or two so... We have been buying these as they underbid HP this year to get the business. We probably get ~ 80 servers a year. I can't say I have any complaints on these servers, we have and occasional failed drive, and sometime we need to reseat a memory chip. I don't think they are built as well as the HP or IBM servers. But, once they are rack mounted it doesn't much matter. Nice cable management arms on these as well.

All three makers have downloadable set up and install disks, that will create a utility partition and load the needed drivers to the partition for you. Makes installing a bit easier. One thing on the Dell 2950's the newest Version of the Broadcom drivers (12) reqires DotNet 2 to be installed before you can use the teaming software. However its not included in SP2 by default so you'll need to either make a slipstream w2k3sp2 + disk with all the extra patches on it or, configure a stand alone nic, run all the windows updates, and then configure the teaming later. If you use it at all.

For VMWare we have been using 2950's with dual Quad Core's and 16 gb or ram. HP SAN connected storage.

Jeff B.

>>> "Josiah Ritchie" <josiah.ritchie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> 6/27/2008 12:04 PM >>>
I haven't purchased server grade hardware in over a year. In my prior
shop, we would almost always default to Dell. I've heard whispers that
HP is the way to go. I want a machine that I know runs lots of other
places without any trouble rather than something I build from scratch
or someone else tosses together for me and I want something
economical. The server will host an application called MPower and it's
SQL based database. (It's win only now, but they are moving toward the
open source which will include linux and MySQL support I hear.) The
machine will unlikely have more than 5 consecutive users in its
lifetime.

I'm spec'ing out a PowerEdge 2900. I thought some of you guys might
have something better with the latest info and given that it may turn
into a Linux box in the future.

Thanks,
JSR/

--
Our Mission
Technology and Hospitality for God's Workmen
http://missions.ritchietribe.net

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