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Ramanraj K | 11 Oct 16:24
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

*



Chakkaradeep C C wrote:

 > Shocking News !!
 >
 > http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/10/10/BAGERLM3RR15.DTL


A very sad story indeed. The report says:

<quote>
Hans Reiser  was accused earlier this  year of failing  to pay medical
and child-care expenses...
</quote>

No father - much less a free software developer - would have the heart
to bear that.

Macaulay  had  spoken  strongly  in  favour  of  copyrights  (read  as
"proprietary software" for the purposes of this thread) and the entire
speech is available at :
http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2002/4/25/1345/03329

The speech was made in the  House of Commons, when an attempt was made
to  increase  the  term of  copyrights  from  20  years from  date  of
publication of the  work to that much time after the  life time of the
author.  The bill was defeated then,  but the law at present is on the
lines  of the  then defeated  bill.  Some  of the  key points  made by
Macaulay in his speech are:

* Copyright is a form of tax - albeit very evil* but a *necessity*.
* Without copyrights,  authors would have to depend  on the government
  or others for support - which would only give room for more evil.

Macaulay  based  his arguments  upon  careful  reasoning and  forcible
examples - nothing much has changed today.
(Continue reading)

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Ramanraj K | 17 Oct 13:41
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

I am  happy that there have  been about 140+ responses  to my question
if the GPLv3 should include a royalty clause.

But, only  Richard Stallman wrote a relevant  answer, saying royalties
are incompatible with Free Software, and such a clause has no place in
the GPL.

I am afraid the  matter does not end there - there  is room in our law
to  explore that  area further.   Copyright law  is designed  with the
object of avoiding penury of  authors and promoting their welfare.  S.
53A introduced into our Copyright Act in 1995, says:

<quote>

53A. Resale share right in  original copies.-

(1) in the case  of resale for a price  exceeding ten thousand rupees,
    to the  original copy of a  painting, sculpture or  drawing, or of
    the original manuscipt  of a literary or dramatic  work or musical
    work, the author of such work  if he was the first owner of rights
    under  section 17 or  his legal  heirs shall,  notwithstanding any
    assignment of copyright in such work, have a right to share in the
    resale  price of such  original copy  or manuscript  in accordance
    with the provisions of this section:

    Provided that such right shall cease to exist on the expiration of
    the term of copyright in the work.

(2) The  share referred to  in sub-section  (1) shall  be such  as the
    Copyright Board may fix and the decision of the Copyright Board in
(Continue reading)

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Rahul Sundaram | 23 Oct 23:20
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

Ramanraj K wrote:

> 
> If authors do not make claims to royalty either under the GPL or under
> Section  53A,  then  it  indeed  shows their  magnanimity  and  strong
> aversion to  copyrights - characterised  rightly as evil  by Macaulay.
> Free Software developers releasing  their works under the GPL, legally
> oblige lincensees to give back code  in return if they modify the work
> - but never  any money.

Modification of GPL'ed code or even mixing it with proprietary code when 
no redistribution to a third party happens is a right of use that is 
granted by the license. The restrictions only kick in when 
redistribution happens.

> Free Software  is a charity  - let there  please not be  any confusion
> about its  true nature.  The  author makes a voluntary  dedication and
> any organisation  focused solely on  Free Software would largely  be a
> charitable organisation.

Not necessarily. Example: Mozilla Corporation.

.  Trademarks are
> proprietary  in nature,  and have  nothing to  do with  Free Software.

Copyrights like trademarks are also designed to give the authors 
monopoly rights. Its balanced by licenses which grant broader rights to 
users. So its not quite meaningful to disclaim trademarks as proprietary.

> Suppose linux  kernel developers say, well redistribute  the code, but
> do so without calling it 'linux',  then how would do market know it is
> 'linux' that  is being packaged and  sold?  It is quite  silly to make
> such  claims and  such terms  and conditions  only tend  to  give Free
> Software  a  false proprietary  color.   Every  time  a free  software
> developer fall into the  "trademark" trap, the propreitary camp scores
> a point.

Trademarks are source identifiers. . There is a limited amount of "fair 
use" rights which would prevent the Linux kernel developers from 
outright prohibiting end users from calling it "Linux". So such a 
scenario is legally impossible.

> There are a number of  legitimate ways of using trademarks, but naming
> the computer program under a free  license with a trademark is not one
> of them.

There are a number of well known Free software projects which enforce 
trademarks strongly and they have very good reasons to do so. This 
include preventing abuse. A Free software program is determined by the 
copyright license and not the trademarks.

Rahul
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Prem Kurian Philip | 16 Oct 10:55

Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

*



>> This might seem rude, but may I challenge any of those in this list who
>> are vehemently stating that the FOSS is the only sane route to start a
>> business and run it purely on the FOSS model?

>FOSS is a software development methodology and not a business methodology.
>You can structure the software development practices in your business
>on FOSS. On whether FOSS is the only business methodology , I don't
>think so. FOSS is both "Freedom to" and "Freedom From" . How you plan
>on using it, it's up to the individual.


I am not sure I agree. FOSS is a philosophy which defines how software is
transferred to clients, how it is distributed and what they can do with
that software. That is, it is not a software development methodology (like
waterfall, iterative etc) or a methodology which defines how software
teams are organized (like XP).

Thanks,
PK

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Prem Kurian Philip | 16 Oct 09:27

Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

This might seem rude, but may I challenge any of those in this list who
are vehemently stating that the FOSS is the only sane route to start a
business and run it purely on the FOSS model?

Thanks,
PK

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Kenneth Gonsalves | 16 Oct 15:09

Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?


On 16-Oct-06, at 12:57 PM, Prem Kurian Philip wrote:


*



> This might seem rude, but may I challenge any of those in this list  
> who
> are vehemently stating that the FOSS is the only sane route to start a
> business and run it purely on the FOSS model?


nothing rude about it. For me, ive tried a couple of times and  
failed. But failed, not because of the model, but because i did it  
part time. I have pointed out elsewhere in this thread successes -  
again whether they are all purely on the foss model or hybrids needs  
investigation

--

-- 

regards
kg
http://lawgon.livejournal.com
http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/

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Mano | 16 Oct 09:52
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

M$ word is used by many people for creating documents. We all know M$ does
not share the source code for this and is evil.  Now Google has started
providing a service which competes with M$ Word (not yet .... lets just
assume so for the sake of this arguement). To an end user, say a doctor,
both provide the same service - that of creating documents.

Now, just because Google uses open source technologies is it in any way less
evil than M$? They too have not shared the Writely code with the rest of the
world! Whether it is useful for the rest or not is irrelevant. Let them
release it and let the 'rest' decide whether its useful or not. Can they
afford to do this?

Or, is it alright if I keep the source code to myself as long as I run it on
my computer and only provide the service to others - software as service
model. Is it evil only if I sell a binary and ask the user to run the
service for himself? So, if M$ stops selling all software and does only MSN
Live... will they stop being evil?

How does all this matter to the doctor anyway?

regds,
mano

--

-- 
War is not about who's right..... its about who's left!
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Kenneth Gonsalves | 16 Oct 15:12

Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?


On 16-Oct-06, at 1:22 PM, Mano wrote:


*



> Now, just because Google uses open source technologies is it in any  
> way less
> evil than M$?


both are evil - and unless one sees the source code one cannot tell  
what technologies google is using. How do you know that M$ doesnt use  
opensource technologies anyway?

--

-- 

regards
kg
http://lawgon.livejournal.com
http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/

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Rahul Sundaram | 16 Oct 15:11
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

*



Mano wrote:

> Or, is it alright if I keep the source code to myself as long as I run 
> it on
> my computer and only provide the service to others - software as service
> model. Is it evil only if I sell a binary and ask the user to run the
> service for himself? So, if M$ stops selling all software and does only MSN
> Live... will they stop being evil?
> 
> How does all this matter to the doctor anyway?
>


In this particular case, adoption of open formats have much more of a 
importance compared to the availability of source code under a suitable 
license.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenDocument

Rahul

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Chakkaradeep C C | 16 Oct 10:07
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

*



>
> How does all this matter to the doctor anyway?


The only thing matters is - "I have downloaded/bought your Software(Word
application) and It should satisfy my needs, If not your s/w is waste for
me(no wonder what Business Strategy you follow)"

If it not going to benefit the end-user, its waste. For me, personally OO is
not as good as M$ Office and I wouldnt recommend it to any of Windows Users.

--

-- 
Regards,
C.C.Chakkaradeep,
Novatium Solutions Limited,Chennai.
http://chakkaradeep.livejournal.com
http://www.yoper.com
http://wiki.freespire.org/index.php/Freespire_Community_Board_Home

--
"Sometimes it's better not to ask - or to listen - when people tell you
something can't be done. I didnt ask for permission or approval. I just went
ahead and did it."  - from "Direct from Dell"
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Mohan Sundaram | 16 Oct 11:12
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

*



Chakkaradeep C C wrote:
>>
>> How does all this matter to the doctor anyway?
> 
> If it not going to benefit the end-user, its waste. For me, personally 
> OO is not as good as M$ Office and I wouldnt recommend it to any of Windows 
> Users.
> 

It is a fact that unless a s/w is nearly as good as a commercial 
alternative, it will not gain momentum. On OO Vs MS Word, mileage varies 
from one person to another. I have been a Word user for a very long time 
and switched to OO. I found it measures up quite well. I suspect this 
would be the case for many so long integration across spreadsheets, 
documents and databases are not very high on the list.

Mohan

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Toufeeq Hussain | 16 Oct 09:38
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

*



On 10/16/06, Prem Kurian Philip <prem@...> wrote:
> This might seem rude, but may I challenge any of those in this list who
> are vehemently stating that the FOSS is the only sane route to start a
> business and run it purely on the FOSS model?


FOSS is a software development methodology and not a business methodology.
You can structure the software development practices in your business
on FOSS. On whether FOSS is the only business methodology , I don't
think so. FOSS is both "Freedom to" and "Freedom From" . How you plan
on using it, it's up to the individual.

-Toufeeq
--

-- 
blog @ http://toufeeq.net
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Prem Kurian Philip | 14 Oct 09:19

Re: Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

*



>From: Kenneth Gonsalves <lawgon@...>
>Subject: Re: [Ilugc] Is the proprietary camp winning ?

>two points to be noted here:

>1. a view has been expressed that foss and proprietary can co-exist -
>yin and yang. This is not so. Good and evil can never co-exist.
>Either good must prevail or evil must prevail. Yin and yang or
>coexistence can be something like FOSS and OSS or Gnome and Kde. It
>is undisputed that the foss method of software development through
>openeness, sharing, code re-use, non-duplication of code etc etc is
>the best method of software development. So why is this method not
>universally used? Only one reason - fear of the proprietary people
>stealing the code. In short, the very existence of prop software
>tends to stifle and inhibit the growth of a healthy programming
>method/environment.

>2. So if all code was free and shared, wouldnt a large number of
>software companies go out of business? wouldnt the programmers be
>starving on the streets? This same argument has been used throughout
>history to resist change. When the automobile came, did all the horse
>carriage owners, and everyone concerned in the horse drawn transport
>industry go out of business? Or did they adapt and change their
>business model? When autos were introduced in chennai in around 1980,
>did the taxis go out of business? Computerisation of banks was
>resisted saying that bank employees would lose their jobs. Have they?
>or are there more bank jobs now. Sure, most software companies will
>have to change their business model or perish. They will change and
>be better for the change.


Dear Kg,

The points you raise are interesting. Thanks for posting them.

However, I do disagree with you on something - there is no evidence to
indicate that FOSS as the philosophy is inherently superior to proprietary
method of development for all types of software. FOSS has worked very well
for some types of software, but not for all.

If ALL software is going to be produced as FOSS by all software companies
(due to some legislation or due to drastic change of heart), then that
would imply that their competitors also have access to their product
source code and are able to sell the same product after including their
own changes/customization and probably at a price point lower than the
original developer because their cost of producing it is zero except for
the cost of distribution.

So not only does the original developer of the product lose the exclusive
right to sell the software which they spent money producing, but they are
also beaten by their competitor who can easily undercut them on price,
support (the competitor can afford to spend more money on support since
they are not having to spend much money on development), packaging and
documentation (it is less expensive to get documentation/manuals developed
for an existing product than it is to actually develop the product and
hence the competitor can choose to spend money towards that) etc.
(Continue reading)

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Chakkaradeep C C | 14 Oct 14:30
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Re: Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

>
> >1. a view has been expressed that foss and proprietary can co-exist -
> >yin and yang. This is not so. Good and evil can never co-exist.

This is not looking good.How can you say FOSS is  not evil and proprietary
is ?. Today, many live in this world due to the proprietary model business
and simply stating that IT IS EVIL cannot be agreed. This list may be
regarding FOSS , so it does not claim that Proprietary Model is bad. If that
is the main thing many here want to propagate, then THAT IS BAD!

--

-- 
> Regards,
> C.C.Chakkaradeep,
> Novatium Solutions Limited,Chennai.
> http://chakkaradeep.livejournal.com
> http://www.yoper.com
> http://wiki.freespire.org/index.php/Freespire_Community_Board_Home
>
> --
> "Sometimes it's better not to ask - or to listen - when people tell you
> something can't be done. I didnt ask for permission or approval. I just went
> ahead and did it."  - from "Direct from Dell"
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Kenneth Gonsalves | 14 Oct 11:04

Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?


On 14-Oct-06, at 12:49 PM, Prem Kurian Philip wrote:


*



> If ALL software is going to be produced as FOSS by all software  
> companies
> (due to some legislation or due to drastic change of heart), then that
> would imply that their competitors also have access to their product
> source code and are able to sell the same product


your whole argument is based on the assumption that when this  
'nirvana' happens software will still be a product to be sold. It  
wont. It will be a service - and computer professionals will join the  
ranks of lawyers, doctors, chartered accountants etc who dont sell  
knowledge but offer skills.

--

-- 

regards
kg
http://lawgon.livejournal.com
http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/

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Ingeneur | 16 Oct 06:38
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

*



> your whole argument is based on the assumption that when this
> 'nirvana' happens software will still be a product to be sold. It
> wont. It will be a service - and computer professionals will join the
> ranks of lawyers, doctors, chartered accountants etc who dont sell
> knowledge but offer skills.

Consultants, you mean. Great way to look at it like that. In more ways
than one, I agree with that idea too. Software will not be a product
to sell. Any addition of my idea here will create yet another string
of replies. [OT]I am happy that I am using gmail for this topic. It
atleast tries to group this as a single conversation!

--

-- 
Regards,

Abishek Goda
http://goda.abishek.googlepages.com
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Prem Kurian Philip | 12 Oct 12:11

Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?



*



>From: Kenneth Gonsalves <lawgon@...>
>Subject: Re: [Ilugc] Is the proprietary camp winning ?

>On 12-Oct-06, at 10:43 AM, Vamsee Kanakala wrote:

>> I'm really saddened when people paint "proprietary" to be the enemy
>> when it's putting the food on so many tables here. Some people want
>> to be paid for their work, let it be so

>are you implying that foss cannot earn people money???? that people
>arent getting paid for doing foss??????


The truth of the matter is that the vast majority of all programmers make
their money writing propreitary software.

There is a reason sofware companies prefer the propreitary route when it
comes to developing software for their clients. The FOSS method of making
money is to give the software free, but charge for the support/service.
However, IMHO this approach to business only works for:

A - Enterprise software such as ERP products
B - Enterprise Servers
C - Anti-virus products (where regular interaction with the vendor to get
updates/maintenance is critical)
D - Custom developed software (where the software may be so specific to
the customers requirement that it doesn't make sense for them to share the
source code with other customers or where the customer is tied to the
vendor for maintenance)

For most other kinds of software users will try and get by as much as
possible with the limitations of the software if it means that they don't
have to pay for support.

For instance, in all this time that I have used Windows or Linux, I
haven't had to pay for support even once. Neither have I paid for JBOSS,
PostgreSQL, MySQL etc. It is not that I haven't had problems with these
software, but it is because I was either able to get around the problem
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Kenneth Gonsalves | 12 Oct 04:07

Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?


On 11-Oct-06, at 7:54 PM, Ramanraj K wrote:


*



> No father - much less a free software developer - would have the heart
> to bear that.


this whole post is way way OT - what has free software development to  
do with morals? In fact, in the FOSS world it is considered  
irrelevant who you are, what your name is, where you live, whether  
you beat your wife - the only relevant factor is the quality and  
quantity of your commits.

--

-- 

regards
kg
http://lawgon.livejournal.com
http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/

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Vamsee Kanakala | 12 Oct 07:13
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

*



Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
>
> On 11-Oct-06, at 7:54 PM, Ramanraj K wrote:
>
>> No father - much less a free software developer - would have the heart
>> to bear that.
>
> this whole post is way way OT - what has free software development to 
> do with morals? In fact, in the FOSS world it is considered irrelevant 
> who you are, what your name is, where you live, whether you beat your 
> wife - the only relevant factor is the quality and quantity of your 
> commits.


You too, are missing the point kg. Unfortunately, there are far too many 
people who associate themselves with foss for dogmatic/moral/political 
reasons, and seem to miss the whole point, which is having fun sharing 
your work/knowledge (at least in my view).

I'm really saddened when people paint "proprietary" to be the enemy when 
it's putting the food on so many tables here. Some people want to be 
paid for their work, let it be so. Foss and proprietary software both 
have their places. Neither of them are going anywhere. I just hope 
people get on with their lives and stop seeing things in free vs. 
proprietary holy war mindset. With all due respect to everyone 
concerned, grow up, guys.

Vamsee.

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Girish Venkatachalam | 12 Oct 12:22
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

*



On Thu, Oct 12, 2006 at 10:43:33AM +0530, Vamsee Kanakala wrote:

> You too, are missing the point kg. Unfortunately, there are far too many 
> people who associate themselves with foss for dogmatic/moral/political 
> reasons, and seem to miss the whole point, which is having fun sharing 
> your work/knowledge (at least in my view).


Quite frankly I am here with the following goals.

 a) First and foremost have fun! ;-) But of course
 b) Learn
 c) Share my knowledge
 d) Develop contacts and friendship

 Are my goals any different from the rest of you? I guess not.

 I think we are putting too many rules here, it spoils all the fun.

 It is like saying that in front of your parents, you should not talk this or that. After all they are your
parents and they understand you. 

 Just be natural.

 I find it very very hard to convince people that being natural is not wrong as long as you are not infringing on
someone else's personal space.

 I think in my very limited experience at ILUGC, the fun factor is not quite  there.

 You folks are way too serious for my taste. But it is ok. 

 I love you and that is what matters.

 regards,
 Girish
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Kenneth Gonsalves | 12 Oct 08:26

Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?


On 12-Oct-06, at 10:43 AM, Vamsee Kanakala wrote:


*



> I'm really saddened when people paint "proprietary" to be the enemy  
> when it's putting the food on so many tables here. Some people want  
> to be paid for their work, let it be so


are you implying that foss cannot earn people money???? that people  
arent getting paid for doing foss??????

--

-- 

regards
kg
http://lawgon.livejournal.com
http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/

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Vamsee Kanakala | 12 Oct 12:31
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Gravatar

Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

*



Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
>
> On 12-Oct-06, at 10:43 AM, Vamsee Kanakala wrote:
>
>> I'm really saddened when people paint "proprietary" to be the enemy 
>> when it's putting the food on so many tables here. Some people want 
>> to be paid for their work, let it be so
>
> are you implying that foss cannot earn people money???? that people 
> arent getting paid for doing foss??????
>

Strawman argument. I never implied you can't make money with foss. As 
the market says, there is place for both. There are businesses which are 
doing both at a time - and surviving. That doesn't make them evil. They 
are applicable in their respective contexts, and they will both continue 
to be relevant for quite some time to come.

I was just lamenting on the blanket statements like 'proprietary is 
evil'  which I think (and many seem to agree) is misleading, and leads 
to the 'us/them' mindset which is harmful, frankly pointless and it's 
not how the real world works. There are smart people on both camps, and 
most people don't even care. We get much more work done have more fun if 
we can just learn to co-operate and use what makes most sense in that 
context.

Vamsee.

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Binand Sethumadhavan | 12 Oct 10:20
Picon

Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

*



On 12/10/06, Kenneth Gonsalves <lawgon@...> wrote:
> are you implying that foss cannot earn people money???? that people
> arent getting paid for doing foss??????


<disclaimer: hearsay />
In Hyderabad, Microsoft pays (and still has difficulty in finding
enough people to fill their opening, I must add) between Rs. 9-12
lakhs pa for a programmer competent on MFC/.NET and other Microsoft
technologies with around 5-7 years of experience. Show me ONE FOSS
company in any of Hyderabad/Bangalore/Chennai that pays similarly.

Binand
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Roshan Mathews | 12 Oct 11:06
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

*



On 12/10/06, Binand Sethumadhavan <binand@...> wrote:
> <disclaimer: hearsay />
> In Hyderabad, Microsoft pays (and still has difficulty in finding
> enough people to fill their opening, I must add) between Rs. 9-12
> lakhs pa for a programmer competent on MFC/.NET and other Microsoft
> technologies with around 5-7 years of experience. Show me ONE FOSS
> company in any of Hyderabad/Bangalore/Chennai that pays similarly.
>

FWIW, the Microsoft starting package for freshers (no experience)
hired from Anna Univ. was 9+ lacs pa.  Google and other companies pay
even more.  I'm sure someone with 5-7 years of experience will be paid
much much more.

--

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Binand Sethumadhavan | 12 Oct 11:11
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

*



On 12/10/06, Roshan Mathews <rmathews@...> wrote:
> > In Hyderabad, Microsoft pays (and still has difficulty in finding
> > enough people to fill their opening, I must add) between Rs. 9-12
> > lakhs pa for a programmer competent on MFC/.NET and other Microsoft
> >
> FWIW, the Microsoft starting package for freshers (no experience)
> hired from Anna Univ. was 9+ lacs pa.  Google and other companies pay


I was talking of pay - money, divided by 12, minus TDS and others,
that ends up in your bank account. The package you are talking about -
CTC in HR parlance - is calculated much differently. The salary is
just a component of the CTC.

Binand
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Suresh Ramasubramanian | 12 Oct 11:18

Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

*



Binand Sethumadhavan wrote:
> I was talking of pay - money, divided by 12, minus TDS and others,
> that ends up in your bank account. The package you are talking about -
> CTC in HR parlance - is calculated much differently. The salary is
> just a component of the CTC.


Still pretty decent!  On an average gross sal is around 50-60% of CTC
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Binand Sethumadhavan | 12 Oct 11:24
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

*



On 12/10/06, Suresh Ramasubramanian <linux@...> wrote:
> Binand Sethumadhavan wrote:
> > I was talking of pay - money, divided by 12, minus TDS and others,
> > that ends up in your bank account. The package you are talking about -
> > CTC in HR parlance - is calculated much differently. The salary is
> > just a component of the CTC.
>
> Still pretty decent!  On an average gross sal is around 50-60% of CTC


Probably includes ESOPs, perf-linked bonus etc. too. 9l for a fresher
is unbelievable anywhere in India (unless your are from an IIM). :) In
tech, for non-IIT types, I think the norm would be more like 3.6-6
range depending on the company/location.

Binand
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Suresh Ramasubramanian | 12 Oct 11:31

Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

*



Binand Sethumadhavan wrote:
>> Still pretty decent!  On an average gross sal is around 50-60% of CTC
> 
> Probably includes ESOPs, perf-linked bonus etc. too. 9l for a fresher
> is unbelievable anywhere in India (unless your are from an IIM). :) In
> tech, for non-IIT types, I think the norm would be more like 3.6-6
> range depending on the company/location.


Well - if its 6l a month (and assuming M$ is skimming the cream of the
university and paying at the higher end of the range) .. that's more or
less 60% of a 9l salary.

Yes, probably does include all the other inflationary tactics that go
into creating an impressive looking CTC while actually giving far less
to the poor sucker who believes that figure .. [a lot of those can be
collected only after a long, long period of service + with strings
attached].  But still a far more decent salary than I've seen at most
places ..
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Roshan Mathews | 12 Oct 11:28
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

*



On 12/10/06, Binand Sethumadhavan <binand@...> wrote:
> Probably includes ESOPs, perf-linked bonus etc. too. 9l for a fresher
> is unbelievable anywhere in India (unless your are from an IIM). :) In
> tech, for non-IIT types, I think the norm would be more like 3.6-6
> range depending on the company/location.
>

Again, talking numbers .. Google was paying 12 lacs pa at NIT, Trichy.
 So, the CTC will have to be a pretty small part of it to bring it
down to that level.  But you're right about these numbers being CTC.
:)

--

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Kenneth Gonsalves | 12 Oct 10:39

Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?


On 12-Oct-06, at 1:50 PM, Binand Sethumadhavan wrote:


*



>> are you implying that foss cannot earn people money???? that people
>> arent getting paid for doing foss??????
>
> <disclaimer: hearsay />
> In Hyderabad, Microsoft pays (and still has difficulty in finding
> enough people to fill their opening, I must add) between Rs. 9-12
> lakhs pa for a programmer competent on MFC/.NET and other Microsoft
> technologies with around 5-7 years of experience. Show me ONE FOSS
> company in any of Hyderabad/Bangalore/Chennai that pays similarly.


show me one foss company in any of them places

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http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/

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Binand Sethumadhavan | 12 Oct 10:37
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

*



On 12/10/06, Kenneth Gonsalves <lawgon@...> wrote:
> > In Hyderabad, Microsoft pays (and still has difficulty in finding
> > enough people to fill their opening, I must add) between Rs. 9-12
> > lakhs pa for a programmer competent on MFC/.NET and other Microsoft
> > technologies with around 5-7 years of experience. Show me ONE FOSS
> > company in any of Hyderabad/Bangalore/Chennai that pays similarly.
>
> show me one foss company in any of them places


If there aren't any, then it proves the point that there aren't any
FOSS jobs, leave alone high-paying FOSS jobs.

Binand
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Kenneth Gonsalves | 12 Oct 11:23

Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?


On 12-Oct-06, at 2:07 PM, Binand Sethumadhavan wrote:


*



>> show me one foss company in any of them places
>
> If there aren't any, then it proves the point that there aren't any
> FOSS jobs, leave alone high-paying FOSS jobs.


afaik mahiti blr, spikesource, blr, collabnet, chennai, srijan, delhi  
all pay rates at 'industry standards' - exactly how much i dont know

--

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http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/

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Binand Sethumadhavan | 12 Oct 11:26
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

*



On 12/10/06, Kenneth Gonsalves <lawgon@...> wrote:
> >> show me one foss company in any of them places
> >
> > If there aren't any, then it proves the point that there aren't any
> > FOSS jobs, leave alone high-paying FOSS jobs.
>
> afaik mahiti blr, spikesource, blr, collabnet, chennai, srijan, delhi
> all pay rates at 'industry standards' - exactly how much i dont know


You can't have it both ways - either these are FOSS companies in
Bangalore/Hyderabad/Chennai and hence ought to pay the kind of money I
mentioned (numbers?) or there aren't any FOSS companies in these
locations.

Binand
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Kenneth Gonsalves | 12 Oct 11:48

Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?


On 12-Oct-06, at 2:56 PM, Binand Sethumadhavan wrote:


*



> You can't have it both ways - either these are FOSS companies in
> Bangalore/Hyderabad/Chennai and hence ought to pay the kind of money I
> mentioned (numbers?) or there aren't any FOSS companies in these
> locations.


sorry - they are foss companies and they pay industry standard rates,  
i was thinking of something else when i asked you to name some foss  
companies.

--

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http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/

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Binand Sethumadhavan | 12 Oct 11:56
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

*



On 12/10/06, Kenneth Gonsalves <lawgon@...> wrote:
> sorry - they are foss companies and they pay industry standard rates,
> i was thinking of something else when i asked you to name some foss
> companies.


So what are these industry standard rates?

As per my understanding, for software development jobs the heirarchy
is something like:

- PHP, ASP, VB etc. pay low. Fact.
- C#, Java etc.
- C++/STL/MFC (sound knowledge) next. PL/SQL and Java buzzwords like
EJB or whatever.
- A degree/masters in CS with niche skills (embedded, graphics/video,
mobile, ...)

Binand
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Kenneth Gonsalves | 12 Oct 12:31

Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?


On 12-Oct-06, at 3:26 PM, Binand Sethumadhavan wrote:


*



> - PHP, ASP, VB etc. pay low. Fact.
> - C#, Java etc.
> - C++/STL/MFC (sound knowledge) next. PL/SQL and Java buzzwords like
> EJB or whatever.
> - A degree/masters in CS with niche skills (embedded, graphics/video,
> mobile, ...)


foss skills in web oriented, embedded system oriented or security  
companies - sky is the limit. Check out hirings in google and yahoo  
India.
--

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Chakkaradeep C C | 12 Oct 12:47
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

*



>
> foss skills in web oriented, embedded system oriented or security
> companies - sky is the limit. Check out hirings in google and yahoo
> India.


It depends on the Objective of the Product/Company. Not that if its web
oriented, it should be only FOSS. There are areas where ASP.NET,SQL Server
works well for many of the companies and PHP,MY-SQL also work for many
companies.For the sake that someone like FOSS or its ethics, choosing FOSS
is stupid. A detailed analysis should be done whether the Technology what is
being taken favours their business and most importantly CUSTOMERS. In this
regard, FOSS has to come up. It is indeed a good sign that FOSS is being
used by many small companies. It requires its own time to get stabilized.

However, if its Microsoft, .NET rules !

--

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C.C.Chakkaradeep,
Novatium Solutions Limited,Chennai.
http://chakkaradeep.livejournal.com
http://www.yoper.com
http://wiki.freespire.org/index.php/Freespire_Community_Board_Home

--
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ahead and did it."  - from "Direct from Dell"
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Binand Sethumadhavan | 12 Oct 12:31
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

*



On 12/10/06, Kenneth Gonsalves <lawgon@...> wrote:
> foss skills in web oriented, embedded system oriented or security
> companies - sky is the limit. Check out hirings in google and yahoo
> India.


As I said, prove it with numbers.

Binand
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Kenneth Gonsalves | 12 Oct 13:06

Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?


On 12-Oct-06, at 4:01 PM, Binand Sethumadhavan wrote:


*



> As I said, prove it with numbers.


from what i hear yahoo gives freshers about 6L and people with foss  
experience (perl, php, mysql, javascript, bsd sysadmin) about double  
that

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Mano | 12 Oct 13:35
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

*



On 10/12/06, Kenneth Gonsalves <lawgon@...> wrote:
>
>
> On 12-Oct-06, at 4:01 PM, Binand Sethumadhavan wrote:
>
> > As I said, prove it with numbers.
>
> from what i hear yahoo gives freshers about 6L and people with foss
> experience (perl, php, mysql, javascript, bsd sysadmin) about double
> that
>


But could Yahoo still afford to pay so much if they release the source code
of every tool they write! They have to necessarily hold back certain things
which have strategic value.

regds,
mano
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Kenneth Gonsalves | 12 Oct 14:36

Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?


On 12-Oct-06, at 5:05 PM, Mano wrote:


*



> But could Yahoo still afford to pay so much if they release the  
> source code
> of every tool they write! They have to necessarily hold back  
> certain things
> which have strategic value.


i didnt say yahoo was a foss company - i was talking about how much  
they pay for foss skills

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Suresh Ramasubramanian | 12 Oct 13:53

Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

*



Mano wrote:
> But could Yahoo still afford to pay so much if they release the source code
> of every tool they write! They have to necessarily hold back certain things
> which have strategic value.


They use freebsd, qmail - various other stuff that starts off as open
source.  But the modifications they use would most likely be useful only
to them [and they have contributed back a lot of patches etc to the oss
versions of the software they use].  And the stuff they use would only
be useful at the sort of extra high loads they put on it.
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Chakkaradeep C C | 12 Oct 10:30
Picon

Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

>
> <disclaimer: hearsay />
> In Hyderabad, Microsoft pays (and still has difficulty in finding
> enough people to fill their opening, I must add) between Rs. 9-12
> lakhs pa for a programmer competent on MFC/.NET and other Microsoft
> technologies with around 5-7 years of experience. Show me ONE FOSS
> company in any of Hyderabad/Bangalore/Chennai that pays similarly.

Rs.9-12 lakhs... :D :D !!!!

I doubt whether any FOSS Company can pay that HUGE AMOUNT !

--

-- 
> Regards,
> C.C.Chakkaradeep,
> Novatium Solutions Limited,Chennai.
> http://chakkaradeep.livejournal.com
> http://www.yoper.com
> http://wiki.freespire.org/index.php/Freespire_Community_Board_Home
>
> --
> "Sometimes it's better not to ask - or to listen - when people tell you
> something can't be done. I didnt ask for permission or approval. I just went
> ahead and did it."  - from "Direct from Dell"
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kamal r | 14 Oct 08:30
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?


--- Chakkaradeep C C <chaks.yoper@...> wrote:

*



> >
> > <disclaimer: hearsay />
> > In Hyderabad, Microsoft pays (and still has
> difficulty in finding
> > enough people to fill their opening, I must add)
> between Rs. 9-12
> > lakhs pa for a programmer competent on MFC/.NET
> and other Microsoft
> > technologies with around 5-7 years of experience.
> Show me ONE FOSS
> > company in any of Hyderabad/Bangalore/Chennai that
> pays similarly.
> 
> 
> Rs.9-12 lakhs... :D :D !!!!
> 
> I doubt whether any FOSS Company can pay that HUGE
> AMOUNT !


  The whole point about FOSS is not about the money,
its just that people want to share code just as
knowledge sharing happens in scientific communities as
this just gets things done faster and more
effeciently, without the need to reinvent the wheel. 
  Its upto the individual to draw the line between the
basic need for money and the fun part of hacking. That
said earlier there were huge grants from the
government(atleast the in the US) that took care of
this, but not anymore. 
  And for those of you who are after the big bucks,
get a good business plan, start the next google using
FOSS and forget the peanuts M$ is offering ;)

Kamal

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Ingeneur | 12 Oct 10:15
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

*



> are you implying that foss cannot earn people money???? that people
> arent getting paid for doing foss??????

Most of the time they don't expect to get paid for foss. Its your
hobby and for very few people hobby brings money. For the rest of us,
it eats into our earnings, if any. Would you not agree?

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Kenneth Gonsalves | 12 Oct 10:37

Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?


On 12-Oct-06, at 1:45 PM, Ingeneur wrote:


*



>> are you implying that foss cannot earn people money???? that people
>> arent getting paid for doing foss??????
> Most of the time they don't expect to get paid for foss. Its your
> hobby and for very few people hobby brings money. For the rest of us,
> it eats into our earnings, if any. Would you not agree?


no

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Ingeneur | 12 Oct 10:54
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

*



> >> are you implying that foss cannot earn people money???? that people
> >> arent getting paid for doing foss??????
> > Most of the time they don't expect to get paid for foss. Its your
> > hobby and for very few people hobby brings money. For the rest of us,
> > it eats into our earnings, if any. Would you not agree?
>
> no

I am happy that your hobby pays you. It doesnt  for me. I earn
elsewhere!! And that it doesnt pay me is nothing Ive ever worried
about.
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Abishek Goda
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Kenneth Gonsalves | 12 Oct 11:27

Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?


On 12-Oct-06, at 2:24 PM, Ingeneur wrote:


*



>> > it eats into our earnings, if any. Would you not agree?
>>
>> no
> I am happy that your hobby pays you. It doesnt  for me. I earn
> elsewhere!! And that it doesnt pay me is nothing Ive ever worried
> about.


please start worrying about it

--

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Ingeneur | 12 Oct 11:36
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

*



> please start worrying about it

If I did, I ll float a company that will earn me dollars and not be
talking if I Linux is better than windows or not. If you had your own
software that earns you big money, you will always say it is the best
and not share its secrets with others so you can remain in the game.

Philanthropy is not business and business is not about sharing!
Atleast it is so, IMHO
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Kenneth Gonsalves | 12 Oct 11:51

Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?


On 12-Oct-06, at 3:06 PM, Ingeneur wrote:


*



>> please start worrying about it
> If I did, I ll float a company that will earn me dollars and not be
> talking if I Linux is better than windows or not. If you had your own
> software that earns you big money, you will always say it is the best
> and not share its secrets with others so you can remain in the game.
>
> Philanthropy is not business and business is not about sharing!
> Atleast it is so, IMHO


in your case, the proprietary camp has won you over completely

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Mano | 12 Oct 11:54
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

Its the yin and yang thing. Both have to co-exist. Trying to find  which one
is better for society (not just joe hacker) is futile. Just roll with the
flow.

regds,
mano
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Chakkaradeep C C | 12 Oct 10:28
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

*



>
> Most of the time they don't expect to get paid for foss. Its your
> hobby and for very few people hobby brings money. For the rest of us,
> it eats into our earnings, if any. Would you not agree?


I think the Industry seeks to adopt FOSS not for its ethics, it should be
becoz of the Low Cost involved both in developing and maintaing. They get
Operating Systems for free, projects can be started within a Community and
you get developers working on it from various parts of the world FREE. So,
the development work is done with the help of Community.One way, this model
is good,brings out many good points with Community and Team spirit and the
urge to work.

This would sure bring in fame, but what about Money ?. I dont have answer
for this. Usually the business model would go like this - Th Company starts
a project, maintains it for say 1 year as Community Based. At that period,
it plans for Commercial Venture of that product where Community would not be
involved much and releases as the days goes by so that the Company could now
earn profit.

This seems to be a non-ending debate always :)

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Ingeneur | 12 Oct 10:53
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

*



> This would sure bring in fame, but what about Money ?.

Exactly. The question is, do you want it to bring in money? I am
talking of hobby, you are talking of business. If you see a potential
revenue in your hobby, it is only pragmatic to reap the revenue. Going
closed at that point in time will in no way be non-ethical.

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Kenneth Gonsalves | 12 Oct 11:26

Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?


On 12-Oct-06, at 2:23 PM, Ingeneur wrote:


*



>> This would sure bring in fame, but what about Money ?.
> Exactly. The question is, do you want it to bring in money? I am
> talking of hobby, you are talking of business. If you see a potential
> revenue in your hobby, it is only pragmatic to reap the revenue. Going
> closed at that point in time will in no way be non-ethical.


if FOSS is a mere hobby - the proprietary camp will win. There will  
be no contest. And that is what 'they' are saying - FOSS is a  
hobbyist toy to play with, not a serious business case for grown up  
people

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Ingeneur | 12 Oct 11:32
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

*



> FOSS is a mere hobby - the proprietary camp will win. There will
> be no contest. And that is what 'they' are saying - FOSS is a
> hobbyist toy to play with, not a serious business case for grown up
> people

Wrong. For most it is a hobby that they don't expect to earn from. If
you see the prospect, nobody stops you from digging gold!

And what is about proprietary people winning? If you want to work
on/with linux and earn from it, the guy who employs you must earn from
it. If I do the same work his company does for free, you will not have
a job! So, the companies will have to go proprietary and protect their
ideas.

Why is this hatred toward proprietary companies? Thats not why this list is!
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Kenneth Gonsalves | 12 Oct 11:50

Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?


On 12-Oct-06, at 3:02 PM, Ingeneur wrote:


*



> a job! So, the companies will have to go proprietary and protect their
> ideas.
>
> Why is this hatred toward proprietary companies? Thats not why this  
> list is!


not hatred fro proprietary companies - hatred for the silly idea that  
only way to make money is to be proprietary. What you are saying is  
precisely what uncle bill and co are saying - if foss wins out all  
computer professionals will starve.

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Ingeneur | 12 Oct 11:52
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

*



> not hatred fro proprietary companies - hatred for the silly idea that
> only way to make money is to be proprietary. What you are saying is
> precisely what uncle bill and co are saying - if foss wins out all
> computer professionals will starve.


Absolutely. This happens in every other field of science. if some
engine maker went about telling everyone why his engines were
powerful, he would not be in business any longer than that!

And it there is a business model by which you can be "open" about your
technology and still make big money --  I am sure the BSchool guys
would have figured it by now!!
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Girish Venkatachalam | 12 Oct 12:30
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

*



On Thu, Oct 12, 2006 at 03:22:04PM +0530, Ingeneur wrote:
> >not hatred fro proprietary companies - hatred for the silly idea that
> >only way to make money is to be proprietary. What you are saying is
> >precisely what uncle bill and co are saying - if foss wins out all
> >computer professionals will starve.
> 
> Absolutely. This happens in every other field of science. if some
> engine maker went about telling everyone why his engines were
> powerful, he would not be in business any longer than that!
> 
> And it there is a business model by which you can be "open" about your
> technology and still make big money --  I am sure the BSchool guys
> would have figured it by now!!


I was waiting for this partcular statement all these days. :-)

You can completely open up and still win. 

I know Edison was very shrewd and patented all his inventions.

But I firmly believe in openness. It is against the grain of my personality to keep something to myself...

I plan to make my life an example of how to share one's knowledge to make the world a better place.

So far I have succeeded. But I am not forcing anyone to agree with me.

Just my point of view, that is all.

regards,
Girish
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Kenneth Gonsalves | 12 Oct 12:29

Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?


On 12-Oct-06, at 3:22 PM, Ingeneur wrote:


*



> And it there is a business model by which you can be "open" about your
> technology and still make big money --  I am sure the BSchool guys
> would have figured it by now!!


check collabnet

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Ingeneur | 13 Oct 05:11
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

*



> > And it there is a business model by which you can be "open" about your
> > technology and still make big money --  I am sure the BSchool guys
> > would have figured it by now!!
>
> check collabnet


I am sorry. But there is one consistent mistake doing the rounds in
this list. Don't give one specific case to prove a point. You need a
general case. Exceptions prove the rule. I want to know how many
"collabnets" are there in the industry? You can handpick them. How
many closed source companies are there? Can we take a quick statistic
to compare them? Are they comparable at all??

Like somebody else pointed out, if you do business out of FOSS, you
have to depend on post-sale support. How many people are going to need
one? Too many vendors can offer that support for that many people? And
most lugs can provide similar support for most of the issues in their
mailing list.

Well, I don't believe this topic is taking me anywhere. Those are my
beliefs and I dont want to question them. I will never want you to
question your beliefs either. So, don't bother replying this one. And
am extremely sorry if I hurt any of the readers sentiments.

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Kenneth Gonsalves | 13 Oct 06:41

Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?


On 13-Oct-06, at 8:41 AM, Ingeneur wrote:

>> check collabnet
>
> I am sorry. But there is one consistent mistake doing the rounds in
> this list. Don't give one specific case to prove a point. You need a
> general case. Exceptions prove the rule. I want to know how many
> "collabnets" are there in the industry? You can handpick them. How
> many closed source companies are there? Can we take a quick statistic
> to compare them? Are they comparable at all??

first thing understand that the FOSS business model is the new  
upcoming business model. Obviously the old proprietory business model  
dominates. Secondly i only quoted one instance because you are  
obviously uninterested in doing any research of your own in this  
subject - there are any number of instances - infrae, mysql,  
edgewall, mahiti, deeproot, srijan, sql-ledger, katipo, operational  
dynamics, collabnet, canonical, redhat, novell, ibm ... you want more?

> Like somebody else pointed out, if you do business out of FOSS, you
> have to depend on post-sale support. How many people are going to need
> one? Too many vendors can offer that support for that many people? And
> most lugs can provide similar support for most of the issues in their
> mailing list.

again check infrae, mysql, edgewall, mahiti, deeproot, srijan, sql- 
ledger, katipo, operational dynamics, collabnet, canonical, redhat,  
novell, ibm ... you want more?

>
> Well, I don't believe this topic is taking me anywhere. Those are my
> beliefs and I dont want to question them.

you will never get anywhere unless you are constantly questioning  
your beliefs and reassessing them in the light of experience - and  
being openminded in assessing criticism of your beliefs by others

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Ingeneur | 13 Oct 09:19
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

> dominates. Secondly i only quoted one instance because you are
> obviously uninterested in doing any research of your own in this
> subject - there are any number of instances - infrae, mysql,
> edgewall, mahiti, deeproot, srijan, sql-ledger, katipo, operational
> dynamics, collabnet, canonical, redhat, novell, ibm ... you want more?
Thank You, for all that time. I am not interested in researching this
topic because I dont expect it to feed me. And on the other hand, why
is MySQL maintaining dual licensing while PGSQL is not? Why both are
FOSS business models right?

And i cannot understand why IBM figures in this list? They have a much
bigger and broader business interests in varied fields that we cannot
even discuss here. And some of their premium products are not even
close to opensource. They have good support for opensource products.
Isnt that all?

So, if some part of Vista could work exceptionally well in a Linux
network will they feature in this list too?

> > most lugs can provide similar support for most of the issues in their
> > mailing list.
> again check infrae, mysql, edgewall, mahiti, deeproot, srijan, sql-
> ledger, katipo, operational dynamics, collabnet, canonical, redhat,
> novell, ibm ... you want more?
My point was that lugs can sort issues that support aims to. Can we not?

> you will never get anywhere unless you are constantly questioning
> your beliefs and reassessing them in the light of experience - and
> being openminded in assessing criticism of your beliefs by others
Precisely. One thing I ve agreed in the entire chain of mails. But,
the questioning will happen when there is a proven model in view. When
I learnt about python, it was almost stable. In the sense that you
could reliably do something on it. But when i did ruby, unfortunately,
the case wasnt the same. Their module for mysql had to change and my
code wouldnt work. I dont use ruby yet?! So, what should I be
questioning? Let the FOSS business model stabilize as a pure FOSS
model that wont need to go proprietary and I will reply you in the
affirmative.
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Kenneth Gonsalves | 13 Oct 09:41

Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?


On 13-Oct-06, at 12:49 PM, Ingeneur wrote:

>>
> Thank You, for all that time. I am not interested in researching this
> topic because I dont expect it to feed me.

it could feed you - it feeds me

> And on the other hand, why
> is MySQL maintaining dual licensing while PGSQL is not? Why both are
> FOSS business models right?

postgres is not a business model afaik

>
> And i cannot understand why IBM figures in this list? They have a much
> bigger and broader business interests in varied fields that we cannot
> even discuss here. And some of their premium products are not even
> close to opensource. They have good support for opensource products.
> Isnt that all?

not all - they have a foss business model also, which is growing

>
> So, if some part of Vista could work exceptionally well in a Linux
> network will they feature in this list too?
>
>> > most lugs can provide similar support for most of the issues in  
>> their
>> > mailing list.
>> again check infrae, mysql, edgewall, mahiti, deeproot, srijan, sql-
>> ledger, katipo, operational dynamics, collabnet, canonical, redhat,
>> novell, ibm ... you want more?
> My point was that lugs can sort issues that support aims to. Can we  
> not?

you can - but no big company needing mission critical support is  
going to depend on lug support. They pay top $ for it. Which is why i  
keep harping on collabnet. All they do is host and support  
subversion. I can do it. You can do it. A lug can do it. But look at  
the companies that pay them

>
>> you will never get anywhere unless you are constantly questioning
>> your beliefs and reassessing them in the light of experience - and
>> being openminded in assessing criticism of your beliefs by others
> Precisely. One thing I ve agreed in the entire chain of mails. But,
> the questioning will happen when there is a proven model in view. When
> I learnt about python, it was almost stable. In the sense that you
> could reliably do something on it. But when i did ruby, unfortunately,
> the case wasnt the same. Their module for mysql had to change and my
> code wouldnt work. I dont use ruby yet?! So, what should I be
> questioning? Let the FOSS business model stabilize as a pure FOSS
> model that wont need to go proprietary and I will reply you in the
> affirmative.

if a proven model is there, where is the need for questioning? You  
cannot make money in business without innovating and taking risks.  
The only people who make money in business are people who do *one*  
particular thing better than anyone else.

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Ingeneur | 13 Oct 10:04
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

> it could feed you - it feeds me
Good for you. I dont want it to feed me. I work on/with linux because
i like to, not for money
> postgres is not a business model afaik
Neednt be. That doesnt answer the question!
>
> not all - they have a foss business model also, which is growing
Are they going to pin on it? They will sell, for sure. Will they sell
only that? If I had a hardware industry that was bringing me millions,
I will not mind setting up a division for the cause of opensource, and
maybe not sell too.
> you can - but no big company needing mission critical support is
> going to depend on lug support.
You said it. No big investor will yet depend on it. Because, there is
no model in sight. ROI is not defined very well.
> if a proven model is there, where is the need for questioning? You
> cannot make money in business without innovating and taking risks.
+1 again. If I innovate and make business out of it, Id want to see
some money atleast for sometime. The only way I can do that is trying
to monopolise it. It is as simple as this.
> The only people who make money in business are people who do *one*
> particular thing better than anyone else.
Then why do they have competition at all? Oracle sells database, so
does microsoft and so does IBM and MySQL. And still not all users have
all the databases.  Well, I certainly dont want to pull this any
longer. It benefits none and is flooding the inbox for so many others.

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Binand Sethumadhavan | 13 Oct 08:42
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

*



On 13/10/06, Kenneth Gonsalves <lawgon@...> wrote:
> subject - there are any number of instances - infrae, mysql,
> edgewall, mahiti, deeproot, srijan, sql-ledger, katipo, operational
> dynamics, collabnet, canonical, redhat, novell, ibm ... you want more?


Well, just putting up a list of companies is of course not enough. Are
these companies making their shareholders any money or running at
massive losses? Of course we can't say anything about the non-public
companies in that list, so let us ask the alternative question, are
any of the above companies public?

The last three are, and:

IBM - FOSS is only a (small?) part of their business. Consulting is
their biggest revenue earner, followed by hardware. Massive, blue chip
company.

Redhat - seems to be doing well (has a P/E of 57, and double the
market cap of Novell). If I might say so, an outstanding success of a
FOSS-based business plan (probably the only one).

Novell - FOSS is big for them, but acquired. Have other products too,
but none with any chance of survival (Groupwise has all but been
killed by Exchange).

Anyone knows if any of the other companies above are public so that we
can see for ourselves whether they are successful FOSS-based
businesses?

Binand
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Kenneth Gonsalves | 13 Oct 09:08

Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?


On 13-Oct-06, at 12:12 PM, Binand Sethumadhavan wrote:


*



> Anyone knows if any of the other companies above are public so that we
> can see for ourselves whether they are successful FOSS-based
> businesses?


i personaly know katipo, sql-ledger, mahiti, deeproot - none public  
companies, all small, but their owners and employees are not starving  
or killing their wives. I know several srijan employees who are being  
paid over 40K per month - and its a small company. Spikesource is run  
by our very own Murugan Pal - new startup, yet to make revenue.  
Collabnet, canonical and operational dynamics should be  public. Dont  
know whether canonical is making money - they are certainly spending it!

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Binand Sethumadhavan | 13 Oct 09:10
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

*



On 13/10/06, Kenneth Gonsalves <lawgon@...> wrote:
> i personaly know katipo, sql-ledger, mahiti, deeproot - none public
> companies, all small, but their owners and employees are not starving
> or killing their wives. I know several srijan employees who are being
> paid over 40K per month - and its a small company. Spikesource is run
> by our very own Murugan Pal - new startup, yet to make revenue.
> Collabnet, canonical and operational dynamics should be  public. Dont
> know whether canonical is making money - they are certainly spending it!


Well, the fact that a given company is spending money does not
necessarily mean they are earning it in the first place.

Binand
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Ramanraj K | 13 Oct 11:42
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

*



Binand Sethumadhavan wrote:

> Well, the fact that a given company is spending money does not
> necessarily mean they are earning it in the first place.


Software companies seem to be earning well - in fact they are the ones pushing
and keeping the SENSEX up :)

Business Today, May 21, 2006, carried a very interesting story about the plans
of TCS, Infosys and Wipro to make $10 Billion (~Rs. 45,000 Crores) in annual
revenues by 2010 and the article was mostly an analysis on who would make it
there _first_  Some of the key facts given were:
--------------------------------+----------+----------+----------+
The numbers of the big three:   | TCS      | Infosys  |  Wipro   |
--------------------------------+----------+----------+----------+
Revenues (Cr)                     13,252      9,521      10,625
Net Profit (Cr)                    2,966      2,458       2,667
Number of Employees               66,480     52,715      59,965
Number of Employees to be         30,500     25,000          na
  hired in 2006-07
Number of customers                  929        460         502
Contribution of top 5 customers      17%        18%         15%
Contribution of top 10 -do-          27%        31%         26%
Customers accounting for               9          9           4
  revenues $50m or higher
Revenue split (onsite/offshore)    62/38      49/51       54/46
--------------------------------+----------+----------+----------+

There is no much information about the extent to which the top companies use or
support free software.  If they do use free software, and some day do give 10%
royalty to free software developers, it could give a big boost to the free
software movement in India.  Also, if the companies adopt the GPL or other free
software licenses which may include a royalty clause I have been suggesting
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Ramanraj K | 15 Oct 02:23
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Re: Free Software won!

*



Richard Stallman, in response to my request, wrote:


     <quote>
     Royalties are incompatible with free software.  Since the GNU GPL is
     intended to make sure that software remains free, it absolutely cannot
     include such a requirement.
     </quote>

Very effectively, Macaulay and the justifications for the evil stand defeated. 
The world could pull along without copyrights and royalties. Free Software means 
victory for freedom, and is a celebration of good over evil.

I think we should celebrate that in a very grand fashion this weekend (by doing 
something that the ilugc would like) !

Happy hacking :)
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Binand Sethumadhavan | 13 Oct 12:06
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

On 13/10/06, Ramanraj K <ramanraj.k@...> wrote:
> Binand Sethumadhavan wrote:
>
> > Well, the fact that a given company is spending money does not
> > necessarily mean they are earning it in the first place.
>
> Software companies seem to be earning well - in fact they are the ones pushing
> and keeping the SENSEX up :)

Only listed, public, proprietary-software companies :) I was talking
about the non-public companies listed in the thread.

> Business Today, May 21, 2006, carried a very interesting story about the plans
> of TCS, Infosys and Wipro to make $10 Billion (~Rs. 45,000 Crores) in annual

Why did they skip Satyam? It is the fourth IT stock in the sensex
(apart from these three, that is).

Binand
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Mano | 13 Oct 12:05
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

*



On 10/13/06, Ramanraj K <ramanraj.k@...> wrote:
>
> There is no much information about the extent to which the top companies
> use or
> support free software.  If they do use free software, and some day do give
> 10%
> royalty to free software developers, it could give a big boost to the free
> software movement in India.  Also, if the companies adopt the GPL or other
> free
> software licenses which may include a royalty clause I have been
> suggesting
> here, they could also earn 10% royalty from other distributors.
>


IIRC the big 3 viz TCS, Infosys and Wipro (among others) wanted software
patents in India!  I dont think they said so publicly but I remember reading
something to this effect in the newspapers just before the s/w patents bill
got shot down by the communists. I could be wrong and maybe they have
changed their stance!

regds,
mano
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Kenneth Gonsalves | 13 Oct 12:17

Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?


On 13-Oct-06, at 3:35 PM, Mano wrote:


*



>> here, they could also earn 10% royalty from other distributors.
>>
>
> IIRC the big 3 viz TCS, Infosys and Wipro (among others) wanted  
> software
> patents in India!  I dont think they said so publicly but I  
> remember reading
> something to this effect in the newspapers just before the s/w  
> patents bill
> got shot down by the communists. I could be wrong and maybe they have
> changed their stance!


afaik infosys and wipro dont write software - they write code for  
hire. I read somewhere that only 2% of infosys work is actualy  
software. So what exactly are they going to patent?

--

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kg
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http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/

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Bharathi Subramanian | 13 Oct 12:28

Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

*



>> IIRC the big 3 viz TCS, Infosys and Wipro (among others) wanted
>> software patents in India!  I dont think they said so publicly


I am NOT sure about India companies. But in the last week
OutLook(Weekly Mag) acticle M$ is says "Software Patents only can
help India to grow in Software field". It is 2 Page trap from M$.

Bye :)
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Sivakumar Ma | 14 Oct 06:48
Picon

Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

I vote for the 'proprietery is evil' camp.

A business spends on capital investment, salaries & wages and other expenses
(marketing etc) and earns by selling their products

A. How a OSS company can pay developers?

1. When a company starts developing open source software they get an
existing code base FREE. Without that they would be investing big money to
buil the base of their software.
2. Now, the company can afford to give away modifications since their
initial investment is low compared to a closed source company.
3. The exact numbers can be debated, but overall the salaries reaching the
developers should be more or less similar in both the cases.

A business failing or being successful depends on many other factors than
whether their model is closed source or open source.

B. Then,  why OSS model is better?
With OSS model we are not reinventing the wheel. By openly sharing already
developed ideas and codebase we free up resources for improvements. This
benefits everyone.

C. What will happen if every business works on OSS? No software will be
developed?

The model will be everyone working on their part of code which interests
them most and take from others as needed. Money will be made by SELLING
packaged software with your logo (you can do it under GPL) and providing
support, customization, user training etc.
(Continue reading)

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Prashanth Mohan | 14 Oct 11:59
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?


Sivakumar Ma wrote:

*



> I vote for the 'proprietery is evil' camp.


All your arguments are pro GPL. None of them explain why `proprietary is
evil'. Blunt statements as such only inhibit ones view.

They have co-existed (peacefully or not) and will continue to be so.

--
Prashanth Mohan
http://prashblog.com
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Sivakumar Ma | 14 Oct 14:47
Picon

Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

On 10/14/06, Prashanth Mohan <prashmohan@...> wrote:
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Sivakumar Ma wrote:
> > I vote for the 'proprietery is evil' camp.

Evil is a  strong word. But in this context please take it as proprietary
software is not beneficial to the industry as a whole.

All your arguments are pro GPL. None of them explain why `proprietary is
> evil'. Blunt statements as such only inhibit ones view.

1. Closed source developemnt leads to reinventing wheel type of work,
getting resources wasted.
2. Closed source sales and usage means users have to depend on a single
vendor to fix bugs and add new features.
3. Closed source means students can not look at the code and learn.
4. Closed source helps build huge companies which inhibits free spirit in
the market place stiffling innovation. (Microsoft etc.)

and so on.

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Ma Sivakumar,
BSG LeatherLink Pvt Limited,
Chennai.
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Binand Sethumadhavan | 14 Oct 15:46
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

*



On 14/10/06, Sivakumar Ma <masivakumar@...> wrote:
> 1. Closed source developemnt leads to reinventing wheel type of work,
> getting resources wasted.


Hmm. KDE and GNOME? This particular argument is hypocritical - the
same thing is presented as "having a choice" when discussed in context
of Free Software.

Binand
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Sivakumar Ma | 14 Oct 16:08
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

*



On 10/14/06, Binand Sethumadhavan <binand@...> wrote:
>
> On 14/10/06, Sivakumar Ma <masivakumar@...> wrote:
> > 1. Closed source developemnt leads to reinventing wheel type of work,
> > getting resources wasted.
>
> Hmm. KDE and GNOME? This particular argument is hypocritical - the
> same thing is presented as "having a choice" when discussed in context
> of Free Software.
>
> Binand
>


To implement a particular feature, KDE or GNOME can freely borrow from each
other. Please consider the components - a nice function or a super designed
class. You have as much choice as you want, but not spending time on what is
already thought out.

Yes, having a choice is important. Closed source model failed in that
important aspect in case of desktop operating systems  :-)

anbudan,

Ma Sivakumar

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Binand Sethumadhavan | 15 Oct 11:03
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

On 14/10/06, Sivakumar Ma <masivakumar@...> wrote:
> To implement a particular feature, KDE or GNOME can freely borrow from each
> other. Please consider the components - a nice function or a super designed

They can - but don't. Think of the multitude of SMTP servers available
as free software. The least they could have done is to implement a
common configuration file format - so that users exercising their
right to choice could do so as painlessly as possible. Did they?

> Yes, having a choice is important. Closed source model failed in that
> important aspect in case of desktop operating systems  :-)

Amen to that.

Binand
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Chakkaradeep C C | 14 Oct 15:05
Picon

Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

>
> Evil is a  strong word. But in this context please take it as proprietary
> software is not beneficial to the industry as a whole.

No way. In that case, Wipro,TCS,Infi,Satyam,Zasken,CTS etc..should not have
been listed in the Top IT Companies.

1. Closed source developemnt leads to reinventing wheel type of work,
> getting resources wasted.

Well, It depends on how you model your new product. Closed source need not
lead to reinventing wheel type of work.

2. Closed source sales and usage means users have to depend on a single
> vendor to fix bugs and add new features.

Sorry. Today with the advent of BPOs, there is no Single Vendor concept
now.Companies have centres for Support nearly in every region. This need not
be only for Closed Source Model, Even Ubuntu has started the Paid Support
Model, RedHat has. So, if you pay to them YOU ARE DEPENDENT in one way or
other.

3. Closed source means students can not look at the code and learn.

Unless a student needs to.

and so on.

I think still your reasons are blunt.

Why we have to debate this way rather enjoy using the different technologies
which is prevailing in this world ?

This creates two communities and one day people are going to be hatred
towards each other which is gonna lead nowhere and we dont want to be the
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Sivakumar Ma | 14 Oct 15:22
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

On 10/14/06, Chakkaradeep C C <chaks.yoper@...> wrote:
>
> >
> > Evil is a  strong word. But in this context please take it as
> proprietary
> > software is not beneficial to the industry as a whole.
>
> No way. In that case, Wipro,TCS,Infi,Satyam,Zasken,CTS etc..should not
> have
> been listed in the Top IT Companies.

Rockfeller's oil business was listed as a top business in the early 20th
century. That does not stop the economy from evolving a better business and
regulatory model.

I am not comparing Wipro, TCS, Info etc with Rockfeller's business one to
one, just pointing out that if some business model yields profits in a time
period, that does not validate anything.

1. Closed source developemnt leads to reinventing wheel type of work,
> > getting resources wasted.
>
> Well, It depends on how you model your new product. Closed source need not
> lead to reinventing wheel type of work.

How would we know if the source is not open?  The algorithm we work right
now might have been implemented successfully, tested to perfection and used
in another software. There is no way to use that wealth in closed source
model.

2. Closed source sales and usage means users have to depend on a single
> > vendor to fix bugs and add new features.

Sorry. Today with the advent of BPOs, there is no Single Vendor concept
> now.Companies have centres for Support nearly in every region. This need
> not
> be only for Closed Source Model, Even Ubuntu has started the Paid Support
> Model, RedHat has. So, if you pay to them YOU ARE DEPENDENT in one way or
> other.

The point is, if the source code is available with the user/client, he/she
has a last resort option, hiring developers to support it themselves, which
is not available in closed source model.

If Red Hat acts smart and tries to take advantage of a client, the client
has an option to use CentOS and support it internally. That keeps Red Hat
focussed on customer service, rather than arm twisting clients to maximize
their profits.

3. Closed source means students can not look at the code and learn.
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Ingeneur | 14 Oct 07:01
Picon
Gravatar

Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

> I vote for the 'proprietery is evil' camp.
>
> A business spends on capital investment, salaries & wages and other expenses
> (marketing etc) and earns by selling their products
>
> A. How a OSS company can pay developers?
>
> 1. When a company starts developing open source software they get an
> existing code base FREE. Without that they would be investing big money to
> buil the base of their software.

Not to debate. But give a moment's thought to this. I have a company,
not a software company, say. I need s/w to run my business. In today's
world,  I should be outsourcing it to other s/w companies.  But I
still have my team of s/w people who work with/interface with the
outsourcing company. If the same code is there in OSS, I can employ my
people to fix/customize the gpl'ed code to my need. Can I not? Will it
not be cheaper than outsourcing? *The dispute is not about outsourcing
being right/wrong*. Then why will the OSS company survive? No, I am
not disputing your idea.

That will reduce the number of areas you can concentrate as an OSS
company. More people trying to work on lesser areas breeds competition
and some will have to go *evil*? Correct me, if i am wrong.

> 2. Now, the company can afford to give away modifications since their
> initial investment is low compared to a closed source company.
Isnt this also called forking? Maybe it isnt. I have much lesser
knowledge on this.

> A business failing or being successful depends on many other factors than
> whether their model is closed source or open source.
Sure.

> Closed source model played its part in evolving software industry. With the
> advent of internet that lost its relevance, and is being slowly replaced by
> the OSS model. This is what I feel.
>
A very positive analysis and a great one to read.

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Abishek Goda
http://goda.abishek.googlepages.com
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Kenneth Gonsalves | 14 Oct 07:25

Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?


On 14-Oct-06, at 10:31 AM, Ingeneur wrote:


*



> That will reduce the number of areas you can concentrate as an OSS
> company. More people trying to work on lesser areas breeds competition
> and some will have to go *evil*? Correct me, if i am wrong.


two points to be noted here:

1. a view has been expressed that foss and proprietary can co-exist -  
yin and yang. This is not so. Good and evil can never co-exist.  
Either good must prevail or evil must prevail. Yin and yang or  
coexistence can be something like FOSS and OSS or Gnome and Kde. It  
is undisputed that the foss method of software development through  
openeness, sharing, code re-use, non-duplication of code etc etc is  
the best method of software development. So why is this method not  
universally used? Only one reason - fear of the proprietary people  
stealing the code. In short, the very existence of prop software  
tends to stifle and inhibit the growth of a healthy programming  
method/environment.

2. So if all code was free and shared, wouldnt a large number of  
software companies go out of business? wouldnt the programmers be  
starving on the streets? This same argument has been used throughout  
history to resist change. When the automobile came, did all the horse  
carriage owners, and everyone concerned in the horse drawn transport  
industry go out of business? Or did they adapt and change their  
business model? When autos were introduced in chennai in around 1980,  
did the taxis go out of business? Computerisation of banks was  
resisted saying that bank employees would lose their jobs. Have they?  
or are there more bank jobs now. Sure, most software companies will  
have to change their business model or perish. They will change and  
be better for the change.
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Mano | 15 Oct 04:37
Picon

Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

There are some similarities to this thread with one that happened last year.
Thankfully, this one is less acrimonious than that one :-) .

The thread is available here:

http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/pipermail/ilugc/2005-September/020946.html

The similarity in issues raised comes further down in that thread. Am
quoting myself from that thread below - an arguement similar to what Prem
has made in this thread:

"A software company does not patent any of its innovations (cute ones

*



> included) and releases all its code to the general community. If the
> innovation is of value there will be dozens of other companies that seek to
> provide support for the same s/w undercutting prices to a level that throws
> the original company out of business (if it is not properly managed). After
> a period the market will only have highly efficient players who can account
> for the productivity of every penny.
>
> Now, the question is: Can these super efficient players afford sinking
> money in research projects that might (just might) give them the next killer
> app. Since developing a killer app is unpredictable, can these companies
> stay in business till their research team comes out with the 'killer'? Can
> these companies do a Bell and employ the likes of Ken Thompson, Dennis
> Ritchi, Kernighan, Pike etc and not care for 5 years or so about what value
> they have added to their revenues? Would not the other efficient players
> wipe such a company out of the market in a year? How will the free thinking
> of great minds be funded? And even if  such a company gives out such a
> product will it have sufficient time to recoup investments before the others
> catch up (the others can be super efficient because they did not spend a
> penny on research and have got the source code for free)?"
>
> "Physical product companies do not make that big a noise about reverse
> engineering because the infrastructure cost of replicating the product is
> itself a barrier to competition. Where the barrier is not strong enough
> product patents come in. Example, a Ferrari model is not patented but the
> suspension subsystem might be patented. So, if patents are OK in other
> fields (where there are other barriers to copying) why is it a bad idea in
> s/w (where the barrier to copying is weak - by copying I mean rewriting the
> code... not pirating)?
>
> If the source code of a s/w is to be given out and also there are to be no
> s/w patents, how will a software company ensure that the product it has just
> released in the market will earn them enough money to pay for more research,
> give the programmers a pay hike (the biggest cost for a s/w company) and
> offer better returns to its investors? Will not another company lift the
> code make fancy modifications to it (just enough to fool the courts) and
> sell it at a much lesser price?
>
> Of course, it can be argued that it benefits the end user by being less
> expensive! But then, the govt giving free food, free clothes and free cash
> also benefits end  users. But does it benefit society?"


Am not sure FOSS business model is definitively advantageous to society (of
which the hacker community is only a subset) than proprietary ones.

regds,
mano
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Sivakumar Ma | 15 Oct 07:09
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

On 10/15/06, Mano <manokaran@...> wrote:
>
> "A software company does not patent any of its innovations (cute ones
> > included) and releases all its code to the general community. If the
> > innovation is of value there will be dozens of other companies that seek
> to
> > provide support for the same s/w undercutting prices to a level that
> throws
> > the original company out of business (if it is not properly managed).
> After
> > a period the market will only have highly efficient players who can
> account
> > for the productivity of every penny.

Good point :-)

>
> > Now, the question is: Can these super efficient players afford sinking
> > money in research projects that might (just might) give them the next
> killer
> > app. Since developing a killer app is unpredictable, can these companies
> > stay in business till their research team comes out with the 'killer'?
> Can
> > these companies do a Bell and employ the likes of Ken Thompson, Dennis
> > Ritchi, Kernighan, Pike etc and not care for 5 years or so about what
> value
> > they have added to their revenues? Would not the other efficient players
> > wipe such a company out of the market in a year? How will the free
> thinking
> > of great minds be funded? And even if  such a company gives out such a
> > product will it have sufficient time to recoup investments before the
> others
> > catch up (the others can be super efficient because they did not spend a
> > penny on research and have got the source code for free)?"
> >

Why the research activity should take place inside private companies?
Research is the domain of universities and publicly funded institutes. The
model has been tried and tested to create new discoveries and innovations
over centuries.

To add to that, most of the next-big-break-through comes not from large
corporations but from the university labs and young students backyard.

> "Physical product companies do not make that big a noise about reverse
> > engineering because the infrastructure cost of replicating the product
> is
> > itself a barrier to competition. Where the barrier is not strong enough
> > product patents come in. Example, a Ferrari model is not patented but
> the
> > suspension subsystem might be patented. So, if patents are OK in other
> > fields (where there are other barriers to copying) why is it a bad idea
> in
> > s/w (where the barrier to copying is weak - by copying I mean rewriting
> the
> > code... not pirating)?
> >
> > If the source code of a s/w is to be given out and also there are to be
> no
> > s/w patents, how will a software company ensure that the product it has
> just
> > released in the market will earn them enough money to pay for more
> research,
> > give the programmers a pay hike (the biggest cost for a s/w company) and
> > offer better returns to its investors? Will not another company lift the
> > code make fancy modifications to it (just enough to fool the courts) and
> > sell it at a much lesser price?
> >

Same as above. You do not pay for the research. You might pay taxes or fixed
royalties to the institute from where the innovations originated. That does
not call for billions of dollars waiting in the bank for
'just-in-case-i-might-need' scenario.

Just imagine the cash held on to by Microsoft coporation (30+ billion
dollars), and how it could have fuelled innovation if released to the
shareholders.

> Of course, it can be argued that it benefits the end user by being less
> > expensive! But then, the govt giving free food, free clothes and free
> cash
> > also benefits end  users. But does it benefit society?"

After all corporations exist to serve the society, not the other way around.
The society made specific laws to allow formations of companies to carry out
specific economic activities, which can not be carried out by individuals.
When the companies step outside the boundaries, they have to be held back.

Am not sure FOSS business model is definitively advantageous to society (of
> which the hacker community is only a subset) than proprietary ones.
(Continue reading)

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Vamsee Kanakala | 15 Oct 08:15
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Gravatar

Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

Sivakumar Ma wrote:
> Why the research activity should take place inside private companies?
> Research is the domain of universities and publicly funded institutes. 
> The
> model has been tried and tested to create new discoveries and innovations
> over centuries.
>
Why not? You're forgetting that most academic projects go nowhere near a 
market, and most of them continue to remain 'of academic interest'. If 
they do, they will take a long time to mature into marketable 
technologies. I'm not saying universities play any lesser role in 
innovation - their role is indisputable in basic research, which most 
companies shy away from.

> To add to that, most of the next-big-break-through comes not from large
> corporations but from the university labs and young students backyard.
>
Not always. One can also argue that corporations have  a better feel of 
the market, and what technology/product might or might not work. They 
have a more ready understanding of the current big problems faced by the 
industry and are willing to deploy significant capital if you can 
provide a solution.

> Just imagine the cash held on to by Microsoft coporation (30+ billion
> dollars), and how it could have fuelled innovation if released to the
> shareholders.
>
I doubt it, unless you 'release' the money to universities (for specific 
projects) or fund startups with that money. Most shareholders of big 
companies are pension funds, institutional investors and regular people 
employed in other fields, but are interested in making money on the 
stock market. Paying dividends would make them happy, but not much apart 
from that.

> After all corporations exist to serve the society, not the other way 
> around.
> The society made specific laws to allow formations of companies to 
> carry out
> specific economic activities, which can not be carried out by 
> individuals.
> When the companies step outside the boundaries, they have to be held 
> back.
>
Excuse me? Corporations don't exist to 'serve' the society. They can 
solve your problems - provide facilities - provided you can pay the 
money. They are not morally obligated to serve the society, but they do 
anyways because they create jobs, increase your standard of living, 
deploy capital efficiently, etc. Are you, as an individual, obligated to 
'serve' the society? It's your choice. So why do the rules change for 
corporations? After all, they are just a bunch of people operating under 
a common entity. If they want to make money, they have equal right to 
take the position.
(Continue reading)

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Chakkaradeep C C | 15 Oct 09:10
Picon

Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

>
> Why not? You're forgetting that most academic projects go nowhere near a
> market, and most of them continue to remain 'of academic interest'. If
> they do, they will take a long time to mature into marketable
> technologies. I'm not saying universities play any lesser role in
> innovation - their role is indisputable in basic research, which most
> companies shy away from.

Yes , I agree. Academic Projects are done so most of the time as Semester
Projects or put up in IEEE papers, but we do see them rarely come up in
Market. Its not that none of the projects come up to market.

> Do we expect a company like Apple or Sony to give away it's hardware
> design plans? No. It's highly secret, their future as a corporation
> depends on them. It's their right to have it & keep it secret because
> they invested in it, and they expect a reasonable return for it. You
> think you can do better? Sure, go ahead, start another company.

Vamsee, you are in a FOSS list and if you ask the question to this group now
as this thread is going on, they would suggest that Apple and Sony should
give away their hardware. For the FOSS , it doesnt matter whether it is big
firm or small, what does all matter is FREEDOM, which they firmly believe
that it can be brought from only OSS Model(which i think , they are inclined
towards only FOSS that makes them to utter this).

How many in ths World, use a Linux Distribution, rebuild for their personal
use and again use them?. We are talking about Business. There is no "we will
try" in the Business World, else you are sued by your Investors. The
solution what you chosse should be Business Ready. Simply for the sake that
am FOSS person, I could not say that "I can make it to work, but just give
me few days" - Believe me, that "few days" does matter. I cann give you
several examples but thats confidential.

Not all who use FOSS do rebuild things, except Product Development Companies
which are handling FOSS prototypes. Just think am a service based company,
how much profit I can expect from handling OSS calls and charge those people
? . People cannot be charged more than extent due to the FOSS(Free)
world.But in the other regards, try to also have support for other
platforms, like Microsoft,Apple, think of your comany. It is going to earn
you much profit than only adopting FOSS Model.

Wat does Microsoft does not allow you to play with their OS ?. *I am
(Continue reading)

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Sivakumar Ma | 15 Oct 08:47
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

On 10/15/06, Vamsee Kanakala <vamlists@...> wrote:
>
> Why not? You're forgetting that most academic projects go nowhere near a
> market, and most of them continue to remain 'of academic interest'. If
> they do, they will take a long time to mature into marketable
> technologies. I'm not saying universities play any lesser role in
> innovation - their role is indisputable in basic research, which most
> companies shy away from.

Now it became circular, no? :-)

I asked the question to say that a company need not earn huge profits to
support R&D efforts. That can be funded publicly.

The biggest originator of new marketable technologies is defence
departments, which are publicly funded.

Not always. One can also argue that corporations have  a better feel of
> the market, and what technology/product might or might not work. They
> have a more ready understanding of the current big problems faced by the
> industry and are willing to deploy significant capital if you can
> provide a solution.

With market driven private research we find more money going in for hair
loss treatment compared to treatment to Malaria. Research is better done
through public funding.

When a company grows too big, its focus is only on their customers. They
lose sight of other opportunities. With Microsoft's pc monopoly, the
personal pc paradigm froze at desktops.  MS would not invest in develop a
new paradigm, why should they?

If there were free play of ideas, probably we would have half a dozen
personal pc user interface paradigms to suit different cultures, use
patterns.

> Just imagine the cash held on to by Microsoft coporation (30+ billion
> > dollars), and how it could have fuelled innovation if released to the
> > shareholders.
> >
> I doubt it, unless you 'release' the money to universities (for specific
> projects) or fund startups with that money. Most shareholders of big
> companies are pension funds, institutional investors and regular people
> employed in other fields, but are interested in making money on the
> stock market. Paying dividends would make them happy, but not much apart
> from that.

The point is they were just sitting on it. The resources could have been
deployed more effectively when distributed outside (as dividends, larger
bonuses or lower product pricing). Each individual putting his money to his
best interests is the way to innovation, right?
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Chakkaradeep C C | 15 Oct 22:49
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

*



>
> That is what happening in thousands of start ups around the world. In
> 10-15
> years we will have a truly free market economy (atleast in software
> industry), free of domination by the monsters.


Well, I may partially agree with you.Here is an interesting
Article<http://www.serverwatch.com/tutorials/article.php/3636251>.
I see the reasons to be genuine as I have faced them personally.May be
others did not. Even the figures what he has mentioned are true.

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http://www.yoper.com
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Vamsee Kanakala | 15 Oct 09:45
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

Sivakumar Ma wrote:
> With market driven private research we find more money going in for hair
> loss treatment compared to treatment to Malaria. Research is better done
> through public funding.

Quite subjective. If a company wants to give you better hair, why stop 
it? There are pharma companies (I'm not saying they are paragons of 
virtue) which spend billions of dollars on R&D on stuff like malaria, 
aids and what not.

>
> When a company grows too big, its focus is only on their customers. They
> lose sight of other opportunities. With Microsoft's pc monopoly, the
> personal pc paradigm froze at desktops.  MS would not invest in develop a
> new paradigm, why should they?
>

And they completely missed the 'web as platform' paradigm - which Google 
is dominating now. When companies become insular to change, they die. 
Quite acceptable, and that's how it should be. Creative destruction :).

> If there were free play of ideas, probably we would have half a dozen
> personal pc user interface paradigms to suit different cultures, use
> patterns.
>

I'm not really trying to make a point here, but are you sure you want 
that? Do you really want to learn half-a-dozen desktop paradigms to help 
a hapless user? Or would he prefer working on a different desktop 
everytime he changes companies? He simply doesn't care.  Standardization 
has it's own benefits. Use when it makes sense. Innovate and change it 
when it gets cumbersome.

> Otherwise corporations do not have the basic right to life as an 
> individual
> does. It is a creation of our legal system. that is all.
>
No, there is a need for such a structure while conducting business. The 
legal system or government makes certain rules under which they can 
operate, so that they don't cheat each other or the consumers. Which is 
fine. What I'm trying to say is, the courts or government don't 
_sanction_ a company. There is a need for such a structure, so the govt. 
recognizes it and provides a framework for it's operation.

> Your crown jewels should be customer service and delivering efficient
> products. Why should be hoarded information be the crown jewels of a
> company?
>

Because, efficiency is not the only game in town, as Dell is finding out 
painfully, as Apple has just surpassed it in revenues and market cap. 
Tell me honestly, what do you prefer? A me-too Dell/Compaq/HP laptop or
(Continue reading)

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Sivakumar Ma | 15 Oct 10:13
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

On 10/15/06, Vamsee Kanakala <vamlists@...> wrote:
>
> Sivakumar Ma wrote:
> > With market driven private research we find more money going in for hair
> > loss treatment compared to treatment to Malaria. Research is better done
> > through public funding.
>
> Quite subjective. If a company wants to give you better hair, why stop
> it? There are pharma companies (I'm not saying they are paragons of
> virtue) which spend billions of dollars on R&D on stuff like malaria,
> aids and what not.

I think from here it goes very philosophical, we will leave it at this :-)

>
> > When a company grows too big, its focus is only on their customers. They
> > lose sight of other opportunities. With Microsoft's pc monopoly, the
> > personal pc paradigm froze at desktops.  MS would not invest in develop
> a
> > new paradigm, why should they?
> >
>
> And they completely missed the 'web as platform' paradigm - which Google
> is dominating now. When companies become insular to change, they die.
> Quite acceptable, and that's how it should be. Creative destruction :).

My point is before that destruction happens how much we lose as a society? A
company holding back the industry for a decade before  a David can emerge.
That can be avoided.

> If there were free play of ideas, probably we would have half a dozen
> > personal pc user interface paradigms to suit different cultures, use
> > patterns.
> >
> I'm not really trying to make a point here, but are you sure you want
> that? Do you really want to learn half-a-dozen desktop paradigms to help
> a hapless user? Or would he prefer working on a different desktop
> everytime he changes companies? He simply doesn't care.  Standardization
> has it's own benefits. Use when it makes sense. Innovate and change it
> when it gets cumbersome.

Standardization is  good. But  why should a farmer have a desktop paradigm
when he does not use a desk for his work?

In my opinion, the lack of PC penetration in India is due to the design
constraint, which is highly oriented towards a western audience.

> Otherwise corporations do not have the basic right to life as an
> > individual
> > does. It is a creation of our legal system. that is all.
> >
> No, there is a need for such a structure while conducting business. The
> legal system or government makes certain rules under which they can
> operate, so that they don't cheat each other or the consumers. Which is
> fine. What I'm trying to say is, the courts or government don't
> _sanction_ a company. There is a need for such a structure, so the govt.
> recognizes it and provides a framework for it's operation.

Yes, we agree here.

The need for a such a structure is recongnized by the government (the
society).

But when the actions of such a structure overtakes the benefits of
fulfilling the needs, then the government/courts (society) has the right to
step in (regulation).

Can  not wait for the market to play it out, because in the first place in a
free market there would have been no corporations. You created something,
you better monitor it.

> Your crown jewels should be customer service and delivering efficient
> > products. Why should be hoarded information be the crown jewels of a
> > company?
> Because, efficiency is not the only game in town, as Dell is finding out
> painfully, as Apple has just surpassed it in revenues and market cap.
> Tell me honestly, what do you prefer? A me-too Dell/Compaq/HP laptop or
> a MacBookPro? When you do ground-breaking stuff, you want to keep it
> under wraps until the technology is workable and make sure your
> competitors won't steal your work and beat you to the market. I guess
> the argument turns philosophical too, from here. As for me, as a
> consumer, I really don't care if Apple keeps it's plans secret as long
> as it's turning out those yummy products. If Apple becomes lazy, there's
> always another Zune to keep it awake.
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Ramanraj K | 15 Oct 07:38
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

*



On 10/15/06, Sivakumar Ma <masivakumar@...> wrote:

> To add to that, most of the next-big-break-through comes not from large
> corporations but from the university labs and young students backyard.


A student appears to have come up with a nice and usable project:
http://www.deccanherald.com/deccanherald/sep62006/cyberspace163748200695.asp

Conceptually, it appears to be sound and could solve a number of problems.
The attempt there is to devise a compact representation of data using
geometric symbols and colors.  It may be possible to achieve a high
degree of compression The innovation is largely about the ability to
represent text and other info as visible pictures that is called there
as
"rainbow format".  Incidentally, it allows storing compressed data on
just plain paper, that is another major innovation.
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Binand Sethumadhavan | 14 Oct 09:39
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

On 14/10/06, Kenneth Gonsalves <lawgon@...> wrote:
> 1. a view has been expressed that foss and proprietary can co-exist -
> yin and yang. This is not so. Good and evil can never co-exist.
> Either good must prevail or evil must prevail. Yin and yang or
> coexistence can be something like FOSS and OSS or Gnome and Kde. It

The moment you come up with a black-and-white argument such as this
one above to a socio-economic debate like the present one, you lose.
Anything further you say will only go to prove that you understand
neither sociology nor economics.

> is undisputed that the foss method of software development through
> openeness, sharing, code re-use, non-duplication of code etc etc is
> the best method of software development. So why is this method not

Even proprietary companies "share, re-use, duplicate etc." code from
other companies. Every time a copy of Windows XP is sold, a part of
the proceeds go to several non-MIcrosoft companies. Couple of examples
I can think of - the CD burning code in XP is licensed from Roxio.
Codebase of IE is licensed from Spyglass. And so on. It is hardly a
specific FOSS method - everyone, FOSS or non-FOSS, has been using it
for decades.

> universally used? Only one reason - fear of the proprietary people
> stealing the code. In short, the very existence of prop software
> tends to stifle and inhibit the growth of a healthy programming
> method/environment.

Argued from the other side, the very existence of FOSS tends to stifle
and inhibit the growth of a healthy programming/software development
industry. Which is why I said this is not a black-and-white,
us-or-them kind of debate.

> 2. So if all code was free and shared, wouldnt a large number of
> software companies go out of business? wouldnt the programmers be
> starving on the streets? This same argument has been used throughout
> history to resist change. When the automobile came, did all the horse
> carriage owners, and everyone concerned in the horse drawn transport
> industry go out of business? Or did they adapt and change their
> business model? When autos were introduced in chennai in around 1980,
> did the taxis go out of business? Computerisation of banks was
> resisted saying that bank employees would lose their jobs. Have they?
> or are there more bank jobs now. Sure, most software companies will
> have to change their business model or perish. They will change and
> be better for the change.

Again, a bunch of fallacious arguments and non sequiturs. The real
argument is "if I ran a few autos in Chennai that would take
passengers for FREE anywhere they want, will the other autowallahs go
out of business?". Or the bank manager saying: "I can get employees
for FREE under certain conditions, so let me fire all salary-drawing
current employees and fulfil those conditions". And so on.

Binand
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Sivakumar Ma | 14 Oct 07:17
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

Abishek,

On 10/14/06, Ingeneur <goda.abishek@...> wrote:
>
> Not to debate. But give a moment's thought to this. I have a company,
> not a software company, say. I need s/w to run my business. In today's
> world,  I should be outsourcing it to other s/w companies.  But I
> still have my team of s/w people who work with/interface with the
> outsourcing company. If the same code is there in OSS, I can employ my
> people to fix/customize the gpl'ed code to my need. Can I not? Will it
> not be cheaper than outsourcing? *The dispute is not about outsourcing
> being right/wrong*. Then why will the OSS company survive? No, I am
> not disputing your idea.

Our point is about developer salaries. Now your company has  employed  and
paid salaries to s/w people to fix/customize the code.

In a closed source model the money would have been routed through the vendor
of software and that company would have grown monstrous.

Open Source enables everyone to choose how they should run their business
and distributes wealth and business opportunities more evenly. There will be
no hassles about evil/benign  monopoly, stiffling of innovation etc.

That will reduce the number of areas you can concentrate as an OSS
> company. More people trying to work on lesser areas breeds competition
> and some will have to go *evil*? Correct me, if i am wrong.

You need not go to *evil*. You just  can not become a Mittal or Bill Gates
and shake billions of dollars at the world. You will be putting your
resources to the best of your abilities for the benefit of your company as
well as the software ecosystem.

> 2. Now, the company can afford to give away modifications since their
> > initial investment is low compared to a closed source company.
> Isnt this also called forking? Maybe it isnt. I have much lesser
> knowledge on this.

If you do not release the code and use it only internally it is allowed
under GPL. If you are going to distrubute it, then the modified source has
to be provided to the buyers of your software, not necessarily RELEASED
PUBLICLY ( to my understanding)

But, since you can not restrict your buyers from distributing what they
received, in effect your code is available to all.
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Ingeneur | 16 Oct 07:13
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

> Our point is about developer salaries. Now your company has  employed  and
> paid salaries to s/w people to fix/customize the code.
To have salaries we dont need to go OSS or FOSS (if they arent the same)
>
> In a closed source model the money would have been routed through the vendor
> of software and that company would have grown monstrous.
After all, why will I start a company to do charity?

> Open Source enables everyone to choose how they should run their business
> and distributes wealth and business opportunities more evenly. There will be
> no hassles about evil/benign  monopoly, stiffling of innovation etc.
But do innovations happen in the industry? Can companies invest time
and money in research that they will *give away* to the community?

> You need not go to *evil*. You just  can not become a Mittal or Bill Gates
> and shake billions of dollars at the world. You will be putting your
> resources to the best of your abilities for the benefit of your company
Which is make profit over and above what I just need to package and ship it.

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Abishek Goda
http://goda.abishek.googlepages.com
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Toufeeq Hussain | 16 Oct 07:46
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

Hi,

On 10/16/06, Ingeneur <goda.abishek@...> wrote:

*



> > Our point is about developer salaries. Now your company has  employed  and
> > paid salaries to s/w people to fix/customize the code.
> To have salaries we dont need to go OSS or FOSS (if they arent the same)
> >
> > In a closed source model the money would have been routed through the vendor
> > of software and that company would have grown monstrous.
> After all, why will I start a company to do charity?
>
> > Open Source enables everyone to choose how they should run their business
> > and distributes wealth and business opportunities more evenly. There will be
> > no hassles about evil/benign  monopoly, stiffling of innovation etc.
> But do innovations happen in the industry? Can companies invest time
> and money in research that they will *give away* to the community?


A wise man once told me:

"Free Software is not about altruism but about self-preservation".

Your notion that companies need to _give_away_ software as charity is
wrong. When a company decides to contribute to the Free software
society it is doing it mainly on _business_ grounds.

Robert 'r0ml' Lefkowitz explains this beautifully in his talk
'Seismology of Open Source'[1] why OpenSource/Free Software is what it
is today. I suggest you give it a hear.

Google is an excellent example of FOSS-based business. They spent
years  developing their products behind closed doors using FOSS. Today
their needs on Free Software is so much that they _NEED_ to hire the
best Free Software developers available. Do you think people like Greg
Stein, Guido and Andrew Morton are hired by Google out of charity ? Do
you think each of their commits is blessed by Google's do-no-evil
deity ? The truth is Google needs Free Software as a form of
self-preservation because it depends on it, there is no charity
involved in any case. The Free Software community is not being
charitable towards Google nor is Google being charitable to the
free-software community. It's a symbiotic relationship.

Of course, Google was not a active FOSS-player from day-one of it's
inception and so will no other startup be. The transition towards
(Continue reading)

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ஸ்ரீ ராமதாஸ் | 20 Oct 17:06
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Forum software suggestion needed..

Hi,

Would like you hear recommendation of Forum Softwares released under GPL.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Internet_forum_software

I found the above link but would like to hear from experts here...

Thank You.

Regards.
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Ingeneur | 16 Oct 07:55
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

> "Free Software is not about altruism but about self-preservation".
> Your notion that companies need to _give_away_ software as charity is
> wrong. When a company decides to contribute to the Free software
> society it is doing it mainly on _business_ grounds.
Well, I am not convinced with this stmt.
>
> Robert 'r0ml' Lefkowitz explains this beautifully in his talk
> 'Seismology of Open Source'[1] why OpenSource/Free Software is what it
> is today. I suggest you give it a hear.
Sure, I ll get back on my views after I heard that.
>
> Google is an excellent example of FOSS-based business. They spent
> years  developing their products behind closed doors using FOSS.
That is exactly the point. They will need FOSS developers, you still
cannot commit google search algorithm to my subversion, can you? You
work for Proprietory FOSS.

> their needs on Free Software is so much that they _NEED_ to hire the
> best Free Software developers available. Do you think people like Greg
> Stein, Guido and Andrew Morton are hired by Google out of charity ?
They will not have to be. Google kinda rules a part of the market!

> involved in any case. The Free Software community is not being
> charitable towards Google nor is Google being charitable to the
> free-software community. It's a symbiotic relationship.
I hate biology ;-)

> 1. Recognize that the Free Software community exists. (discovery)
> 2. Utilize Free Software as a replacement to proprietary software and
> discover the merits if any exist (usage).
> 3. If the outcome from Step 2 is positive , then make sure that the
> free software being used for it's needs is the best. (perfection)

Sounds like a vision statement. Realisable, agreed.
> 4. Contribute the changes made to the community on a case-by-case
> basis (active contribution).
This is vision.
>
> A FOSS based business never starts out thinking it is going to
> actively contribute code back to the community. As it evolves and
> reaches a strong position (while still using FOSS), contribution to
> Free Software becomes an eventuality.
Let us hope it does.

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Abishek Goda
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Toufeeq Hussain | 16 Oct 08:11
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

On 10/16/06, Ingeneur <goda.abishek@...> wrote:
> > Google is an excellent example of FOSS-based business. They spent
> > years  developing their products behind closed doors using FOSS.
> That is exactly the point. They will need FOSS developers, you still
> cannot commit google search algorithm to my subversion, can you? You
> work for Proprietory FOSS.

There are always going to be some parts of software which will be very
specific to a business. Releasing it as Free Software will not be a
value add. Honestly, if Google did release their implementation as a
FOSS product how many would be interested in using it ? The
implementation would be tied into Google's infrastructure that any
small-company which hopes to emulate Google will not be able to afford
to use it as efficiently as Google does.

OTOH, They do believe in sharing knowledge[1] [2] which is good. The
algorithm is there for you, go ahead and implement it if you want to
use it.

[1] http://www-db.stanford.edu/~backrub/google.html
[2] http://labs.google.com/papers/mapreduce-osdi04.pdf

> > their needs on Free Software is so much that they _NEED_ to hire the
> > best Free Software developers available. Do you think people like Greg
> > Stein, Guido and Andrew Morton are hired by Google out of charity ?
> They will not have to be. Google kinda rules a part of the market!

Correct. Hence Google gets the best. The rest of the developers will
find opportunities elsewhere till they become the best.

> > 1. Recognize that the Free Software community exists. (discovery)
> > 2. Utilize Free Software as a replacement to proprietary software and
> > discover the merits if any exist (usage).
> > 3. If the outcome from Step 2 is positive , then make sure that the
> > free software being used for it's needs is the best. (perfection)
>
> Sounds like a vision statement. Realisable, agreed.

No, not a vision. Most of the companies are waking up to realize this[1].

[1] http://port25.technet.com/archive/2006/09/11/Lessons-from-OSCON_3A00_--The-Powertoys-Team-Learns-How-To-Go-_2200_Open_2200_.aspx

> > 4. Contribute the changes made to the community on a case-by-case
> > basis (active contribution).
> This is vision.

ERR! Wrong again. It's happening.

http://opensource.nokia.com/
http://oss.oracle.com/
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Ingeneur | 16 Oct 08:17
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

*



> ERR! Wrong again. It's happening.
>
> http://opensource.nokia.com/
> http://oss.oracle.com/

I ve been to the oracle link myself. Anyways, this is not their major
work. They do this also. Like I said, If I earnt millions in my
business, I will not hesitate to setup a FOSS division and contribute
to the community. But, that FOSS may not (read need not) return me
anything. Am I converting my business to FOSS? No, atleast I think
not.

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Abishek Goda
http://goda.abishek.googlepages.com
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Toufeeq Hussain | 16 Oct 08:24
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

*



On 10/16/06, Ingeneur <goda.abishek@...> wrote:
> > ERR! Wrong again. It's happening.
> >
> > http://opensource.nokia.com/
> > http://oss.oracle.com/
> I ve been to the oracle link myself. Anyways, this is not their major
> work. They do this also. Like I said, If I earnt millions in my
> business, I will not hesitate to setup a FOSS division and contribute
> to the community. But, that FOSS may not (read need not) return me
> anything. Am I converting my business to FOSS? No, atleast I think
> not.


Agreed that the companies mentioned above are not using FOSS as their
USP. But they   are not doing this for charity either, which proves
the point that 'FOSS is not about charity'.

-Toufeeq
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Ingeneur | 16 Oct 08:34
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

*



> Agreed that the companies mentioned above are not using FOSS as their
> USP. But they   are not doing this for charity either, which proves
> the point that 'FOSS is not about charity'.

My sincere apologies to the list, if any of my statements so far
suggested that FOSS is all about charity. I was all the time trying to
sell the point that FOSS cannot become that glossy business that
proprietary companies do. Again, there are exceptions to both sides
(before someone points that out!)

But, the point to ponder is *Should FOSS try to be business?* No, let
us not start any debate over this, atleast I haven't constructed my
argument!!!
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Abishek Goda
http://goda.abishek.googlepages.com
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Kenneth Gonsalves | 16 Oct 15:06

Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?


On 16-Oct-06, at 12:04 PM, Ingeneur wrote:


*



> But, the point to ponder is *Should FOSS try to be business?*


this is a question for a philosopher. The question for a software  
entrpreneur is: 'how to make money?'. And many of them have found the  
answer in the FOSS model

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Ingeneur | 17 Oct 05:28
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

*



On 10/16/06, Kenneth Gonsalves <lawgon@...> wrote:
>
> On 16-Oct-06, at 12:04 PM, Ingeneur wrote:
>
> > But, the point to ponder is *Should FOSS try to be business?*
>
> this is a question for a philosopher. The question for a software
> entrpreneur is: 'how to make money?'. And many of them have found the
> answer in the FOSS model


And the best have made millions remaining proprietary. Even if I am
quoting examples, Microsoft, IBM, Apple, Oracle etc.
Every engineer (read professional) must be a philosopher. It will help
your remaining creative.
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Toufeeq Hussain | 17 Oct 06:46
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

Hi,

On 10/17/06, Ingeneur <goda.abishek@...> wrote:

*



> On 10/16/06, Kenneth Gonsalves <lawgon@...> wrote:
> >
> > On 16-Oct-06, at 12:04 PM, Ingeneur wrote:
> >
> > > But, the point to ponder is *Should FOSS try to be business?*
> >
> > this is a question for a philosopher. The question for a software
> > entrpreneur is: 'how to make money?'. And many of them have found the
> > answer in the FOSS model
>
> And the best have made millions remaining proprietary. Even if I am
> quoting examples, Microsoft, IBM, Apple, Oracle etc.
> Every engineer (read professional) must be a philosopher. It will help
> your remaining creative.


What we tend to forget here when we make comparisons of FOSS vs
Proprietary models is the time-frame which it has taken for the above
mentioned companies to reach the stature of multi-million dollar
empires.

Let's just go back and have a look at their beginnings.

- Microsoft[1] Founded in 1975, which means it has taken them 31 years
to reach the current position as leader in the Software business.

- IBM [2] : Founded in 1888, whew! more than 100+ years in existence.

- Apple and Oracle [3][4] : Founded in 1976 and 77 respectively, a
couple of 30 year old corporations.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MICROSOFT
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM
[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Computer
[4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oracle_Corporation

Now I want all of you to make an assumption that we are in the 1970's.
A time when selling computer hardware (big iron b0xen) was considered
the most(only) viable business model in the software industry.
Hardware was 'proprietary' back then, not the off-the-shelf industry
it is today. With that in mind consider the mentality of Bill Gates,
Larry Ellison and the Steve's as they start to go about creating their
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Sivakumar Ma | 17 Oct 07:14
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

*



On 10/17/06, Toufeeq Hussain <toufeeqh@...> wrote:
>
> What we tend to forget here when we make comparisons of FOSS vs
> Proprietary models is the time-frame which it has taken for the above
> mentioned companies to reach the stature of multi-million dollar
> empires.
>
> Let's just go back and have a look at their beginnings.
>
> - Microsoft[1] Founded in 1975, which means it has taken them 31 years
> to reach the current position as leader in the Software business.
>
> - IBM [2] : Founded in 1888, whew! more than 100+ years in existence.
>
> - Apple and Oracle [3][4] : Founded in 1976 and 77 respectively, a
> couple of 30 year old corporations.
>
> [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MICROSOFT
> [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM
> [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Computer
> [4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oracle_Corporation
>
> Now I want all of you to make an assumption that we are in the 1970's.
> A time when selling computer hardware (big iron b0xen) was considered
> the most(only) viable business model in the software industry.
> Hardware was 'proprietary' back then, not the off-the-shelf industry
> it is today. With that in mind consider the mentality of Bill Gates,
> Larry Ellison and the Steve's as they start to go about creating their
> business plans. They would have asked the same question which we are
> (sort of)asking today, 'How can proprietary software be a viable
> software model when compared to proprietary hardware which has created
> such million-dollar businesses ?'.
>
> I'm sure they would not have had an answer to that question, as is the
> same case today. But consider the fact that a few determined
> individuals do take the plunge at the same time believing that the
> FOSS-business model is the right way forward for the future of the
> computer industry then think of the implications that these companies
> will have after 30+ years of their inception.
>
> Ofcourse, this is purely based on the fact that what they are
> selling/marketing is unique enough that it creates a need in the
> market and people would like to pay for it. I see RedHat/Canonical and
> Novel worth keeping an eye on for the next 30 years. Remember, MS had
> to wait nearly 30 years before their product (Win 3.0) could create
> sufficient demand for them. Also, remember that Apple was once on the
> verge of bankruptcy.
>
> The real question to ask oneself is, 'Am I going to sit and debate
> about whether the business-model which I'm seeing grow in front of me
> is a good one or not or take a risk and plunge into it and see what
> happens ?'
>
> By the time a business model is stabilized and an industry has grown
> around it, it's usually too late for a brilliant industrialist to make
> his move. That's why you see so many web-based startups meet so much
> success. The time is now ripe for a FOSS-based startup's to flourish.
> The question is, 'Do you want to see them grow, or grow one yourself'.
>
> -Toufeeq


Toufeeq,

Brilliant insight.

Best regards,

Ma Sivakumar
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Ingeneur | 17 Oct 07:10
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

> couple of 30 year old corporations.
Well we can counter/accept this for FOSS after maybe another 30 years.
> business plans. They would have asked the same question which we are
> (sort of)asking today, 'How can proprietary software be a viable
> software model when compared to proprietary hardware which has created
> such million-dollar businesses ?'.
Would they have? That was a time when nobody was writing Linux for
free. They did need some kind of (at least) assembly language to
operate on these machines. That they could foresee a requirement to do
software is why they are what they are today.

IBM had os/2 and I read from some books that it is amongst the best
OSes written till date. Maybe they don't ship it any more. I dont even
know how user friendly it is. Technically a superior one as claimed in
some literature. They had a huge hardware business and a very
sucessful one. If os/2 were to ship free and remain open (I agree,
nobody thought in those lines), would there have been a windows at
all? Not that I want windows here today. But when they neednt have
seen software as a viable business option, they neednt have sold it.
Wouldnt you agree?
> I'm sure they would not have had an answer to that question, as is the
> same case today.
I needed that. This is why I avoid quoting examples!!
> But consider the fact that a few determined
> individuals do take the plunge at the same time believing that the
> FOSS-business model is the right way forward for the future of the
> computer industry then think of the implications that these companies
> will have after 30+ years of their inception.
My wishes to those. But let me tell you- Keep business and interests
separate whenever possible. If all you want is market share, then one
thing to do is keep competitors at bay. And give me some good ways of
doing that with FOSS and I will buy one.
>Also, remember that Apple was once on the
> verge of bankruptcy.
So was IBM, they were in h/w industry. Not bankrupt but huge losses.
That is a part of most business and is irrelevant to being FOSS/not.
But can you survive one is an important question.
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Toufeeq Hussain | 17 Oct 07:51
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

On 10/17/06, Ingeneur <goda.abishek@...> wrote:
> > couple of 30 year old corporations.
> Well we can counter/accept this for FOSS after maybe another 30 years.

If we are still arguing/discussing this after 30 years, we have failed
haven't we ? :)

> > business plans. They would have asked the same question which we are
> > (sort of)asking today, 'How can proprietary software be a viable
> > software model when compared to proprietary hardware which has created
> > such million-dollar businesses ?'.
>
> Would they have? That was a time when nobody was writing Linux for
> free. They did need some kind of (at least) assembly language to
> operate on these machines. That they could foresee a requirement to do
> software is why they are what they are today.

It's the evolution of computer software isn't it. The time has come
people needn't depend on other's to kickstart their companies. Free
Software provides a platform for anyone in any corner of the world to
become the next mega-corporation provided the idea is brilliant
enough. It solves all the nitty-gritty problems that proprietary
licensed software used to cause allowing you to concentrate on your
'killer' idea.

> IBM had os/2 and I read from some books that it is amongst the best
> OSes written till date. Maybe they don't ship it any more. I dont even
> know how user friendly it is. Technically a superior one as claimed in
> some literature. They had a huge hardware business and a very
> sucessful one. If os/2 were to ship free and remain open (I agree,
> nobody thought in those lines), would there have been a windows at
> all? Not that I want windows here today. But when they neednt have
> seen software as a viable business option, they neednt have sold it.
> Wouldnt you agree?

OS/2 Warp was developed by IBM in collaboration with MS at a point
when MS had it's own OS in the market. Is that a good business move ?

> > I'm sure they would not have had an answer to that question, as is the
> > same case today.
> I needed that. This is why I avoid quoting examples!!

History is the greatest teacher. It's always useful to refer to
history (examples in your case) to make sure one does not repeat
mistakes committed in the past.

> > But consider the fact that a few determined
> > individuals do take the plunge at the same time believing that the
> > FOSS-business model is the right way forward for the future of the
> > computer industry then think of the implications that these companies
> > will have after 30+ years of their inception.
>
> My wishes to those. But let me tell you- Keep business and interests
> separate whenever possible. If all you want is market share, then one
> thing to do is keep competitors at bay. And give me some good ways of
> doing that with FOSS and I will buy one.

Restricting technology to a select few goes against the Free Software
principles. If your idea is unique and brilliant enough it will
warrant a market of it's own. Having a minuscule idea/concept which
can be easily replicated and then going to market with it will lead to
failure both in the proprietary and FOSS business model. Technological
superiority and good-will in the market in which you operate will
always serve as a good yardstick on how well your business does. Other
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Ingeneur | 17 Oct 08:49
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

> If we are still arguing/discussing this after 30 years, we have failed
> haven't we ? :)
No, I dont mean we continue discussing this for the next few years.
But, will chill it and reflect after 30 years!!!
> It's the evolution of computer software isn't it. The time has come
> people needn't depend on other's to kickstart their companies. Free
> Software provides a platform for anyone in any corner of the world to
> become the next mega-corporation provided the idea is brilliant
> enough. It solves all the nitty-gritty problems that proprietary
> licensed software used to cause allowing you to concentrate on your
> 'killer' idea.
Ok. The topic diverges here. The question here is if the software is
my product or if my product depends on the software. For the former,
it is the nitty-gritty problems of proprietary software that can earn
us market share. On the other hand, If I merely depended on some
software to get my product going, FOSS helps me a lot. Remember I am
not selling FOSS but only my  product.
> OS/2 Warp was developed by IBM in collaboration with MS at a point
> when MS had it's own OS in the market. Is that a good business move ?
Well, maybe they didnt forsee windows 3 in the making!?
Again, OS/2 was an example I chose to use. But I have no clues onto
its origins. I am not interested either.

--

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Abishek Goda
http://goda.abishek.googlepages.com
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Sivakumar Ma | 17 Oct 08:08
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

*



On 10/17/06, Toufeeq Hussain <toufeeqh@...> wrote:
>
> It's the evolution of computer software isn't it. The time has come
> people needn't depend on other's to kickstart their companies. Free
> Software provides a platform for anyone in any corner of the world to
> become the next mega-corporation provided the idea is brilliant
> enough. It solves all the nitty-gritty problems that proprietary
> licensed software used to cause allowing you to concentrate on your
> 'killer' idea.


Yes, in economic discussions barriers to entry for new competitors is cited
as one of the main reasons for  anti-competitive behaviour by established
firms. OSS model makes the barrier to entry low enough to permit 'killer'
ideas to thrive on their merit.

Best regards,

Ma Sivakumar

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Chakkaradeep C C | 17 Oct 07:19
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

Can we stop this from now on ?.

I am sure, nobody is going to agree to each other and just go on discussing.
Each ones perception is different and each one lives on his/her ethics. So,
we shall continue living that way and now stop arguing :(

Thanks :)

--

-- 
Regards,
C.C.Chakkaradeep,
Novatium Solutions Limited,Chennai.
http://chakkaradeep.livejournal.com
http://www.yoper.com
http://wiki.freespire.org/index.php/Freespire_Community_Board_Home

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something can't be done. I didnt ask for permission or approval. I just went
ahead and did it."  - from "Direct from Dell"
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Toufeeq Hussain | 17 Oct 07:24
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

Hi,

On 10/17/06, Chakkaradeep C C <chaks.yoper@...> wrote:

*



> Can we stop this from now on ?.
>
> I am sure, nobody is going to agree to each other and just go on discussing.
> Each ones perception is different and each one lives on his/her ethics. So,
> we shall continue living that way and now stop arguing :(


Nobody is arguing/flaming/fighting here. There is no animosity in any
of the discussions so far. Is there any rule in ILUGC which says a
conversation has to come to a conclusion or should be limited to less
than 10 replies.

If people feel this discussion carries no meaning to they are free to
ignore it. If see you are on Gmail, ignoring this discussion is just
two clicks away, I'm sure it's somewhat similar for others too.

-Toufeeq
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Sivakumar Ma | 17 Oct 07:28
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

*



On 10/17/06, Toufeeq Hussain <toufeeqh@...> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> On 10/17/06, Chakkaradeep C C <chaks.yoper@...> wrote:
> > Can we stop this from now on ?.
> >
> > I am sure, nobody is going to agree to each other and just go on
> discussing.
> > Each ones perception is different and each one lives on his/her ethics.
> So,
> > we shall continue living that way and now stop arguing :(
>
> Nobody is arguing/flaming/fighting here. There is no animosity in any
> of the discussions so far. Is there any rule in ILUGC which says a
> conversation has to come to a conclusion or should be limited to less
> than 10 replies.
>
> If people feel this discussion carries no meaning to they are free to
> ignore it. If see you are on Gmail, ignoring this discussion is just
> two clicks away, I'm sure it's somewhat similar for others too.
>
> -Toufeeq
>


I personally learnt quite a bit from this discussion. I feel, as long as it
is on topic, we need not stop a conversation midway.

And let us keep the animosity/flaming/fighting out of it.

Best regards,

Ma Sivakumar
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Binand Sethumadhavan | 16 Oct 21:18
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

*



On 16/10/06, Kenneth Gonsalves <lawgon@...> wrote:
> The question for a software entrpreneur is: 'how to make money?'.


This is not quite correct. The question for any entrepreneur (or in
fact, any businessman) is "how to increase the shareholder value?".
Several companies make heavy losses but still have created
considerable shareholder value and hence have been acquired at massive
costs. A recent example is Youtube.

FOSS-based software businesses don't create the kind of value you see
in other software companies because the source code, where they spend
the bulk of their funding in, in itself (the intellectual property)
doesn't have any value. Source code has been commoditized.

Binand
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Binand Sethumadhavan | 13 Oct 12:16
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

*



On 13/10/06, Kenneth Gonsalves <lawgon@...> wrote:
> afaik infosys and wipro dont write software - they write code for
> hire. I read somewhere that only 2% of infosys work is actualy
> software. So what exactly are they going to patent?


I remember reading that the entire ICICI Bank IT infrastructure is
"powered" by Infosys-written software. Their online banking, their
ATMs, their portals for share trading, insurance etc., their back
office, databases, warehouses, disaster recovery - everything is done
by Infosys. The way it was projected, it sure sounded like a symbiotic
relationship to me then.

The big four are probably less about writing software and more about
"system integration".

Binand
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Anurag | 13 Oct 12:24

Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

*



On 10/13/06, Binand Sethumadhavan <binand@...> wrote:
> I remember reading that the entire ICICI Bank IT infrastructure is
> "powered" by Infosys-written software. Their online banking, their
> ATMs, their portals for share trading, insurance etc., their back
> office, databases, warehouses, disaster recovery - everything is done
> by Infosys. The way it was projected, it sure sounded like a symbiotic
> relationship to me then.


And i was under an impression that 3i Infotech (formely ICICI
Infotech) was setup just for taking care of ICICI Bank's infotech
needs.

Anurag
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Anand Saha | 13 Oct 12:21
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

*



On 10/13/06, Binand Sethumadhavan <binand@...> wrote:
> The big four are probably less about writing software and more about
> "system integration".


you might say 'solution providers' than 'product developers', which most
company in India are all about (you name any technology under the sun
and they would proovide you with a solution) ....

saha
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Natarajan K | 12 Oct 10:06
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

*



On 10/12/06, Kenneth Gonsalves <lawgon@...> wrote:
> are you implying that foss cannot earn people money???? that people
> arent getting paid for doing foss??????


I don't think that it what Vamsee implies.  I think he just wants to
say distributing/selling/using/making closed source applications is
not evil.

Natarajan
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Kenneth Gonsalves | 12 Oct 10:37

Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?


On 12-Oct-06, at 1:36 PM, Natarajan K wrote:


*



>> are you implying that foss cannot earn people money???? that people
>> arent getting paid for doing foss??????
>
> I don't think that it what Vamsee implies.  I think he just wants to
> say distributing/selling/using/making closed source applications is
> not evil.


it is

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Chakkaradeep C C | 12 Oct 07:38
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

*



>
>  I just hope
> people get on with their lives and stop seeing things in free vs.
> proprietary holy war mindset. With all due respect to everyone
> concerned, grow up, guys.


Well said. Technology is created for Users to use it and not to debate on
them. How many of us worry how the food is made when we take food in Hotels
:) ?.

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http://wiki.freespire.org/index.php/Freespire_Community_Board_Home

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something can't be done. I didnt ask for permission or approval. I just went
ahead and did it."  - from "Direct from Dell"
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Mano | 12 Oct 06:44
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

*



On 10/12/06, Kenneth Gonsalves <lawgon@...> wrote:
>
>
> On 11-Oct-06, at 7:54 PM, Ramanraj K wrote:
>
> > No father - much less a free software developer - would have the heart
> > to bear that.
>
> this whole post is way way OT - what has free software development to
> do with morals? In fact, in the FOSS world it is considered
> irrelevant who you are, what your name is, where you live, whether
> you beat your wife - the only relevant factor is the quality and
> quantity of your commits.
>
>

The above snippet was OT.  But the rest was relevant. Though I did not see
the connection between the 2 parts!

regds,
mano
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Ramanraj K | 12 Oct 14:21
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

*



Mano wrote:

 > ... I did not see
 > the connection between the 2 parts!


I am sure it is less difficult than finding the connection between logarithms, 
compound interest, golden rectangle, google, knuth's metafont and all that has 
with computers and free software !

Here is a snippet from an interview, and
the connection you would like to see:

<quote>
Jeremy Andrews: How important is the GPL
to you? Do you have any interest or
intention of working on a filesystem for
any of the BSD operating systems, or for
any closed source operating systems?

Hans Reiser: Doing GPL work is doing
charity work in our current legal and
economic framework. That should be and
could be changed, but for now it is so.
I have done my share of charity, and I
would not have a problem doing
proprietary work. I think people should
keep their lives in balance, and that
includes balancing charity work and
better paid work. That said, I have no
tempting offers at the moment, so I will
probably keep on doing GPL work for now.
It is not an easy life, I am $200k or
more in debt and drive a 1989 CRX Si. I
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Girish Venkatachalam | 12 Oct 15:25
Picon

Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

On Thu, Oct 12, 2006 at 05:51:58PM +0530, Ramanraj K wrote:
> Mano wrote:
 <gory details snipped>
> What appeared to be originally free is slowly and gradually turning 
> non-free and could easily become just the usual dull and boring bait and 
> switch variety of the usual "free" products available in a market place.  
> Rather than collecting any license fees indirectly or imposing terms and 
> conditions with trademarks as an excuse, it would be more straight forward 
I am a simple man who loves simplicity. To quote Einstein,

  " Everything should be kept simple, no simpler."

  There is a lot of wisdom in the few words coming from one of the foremost thinkers of the last century.

  IOW, solutions should be simple and not simplistic.

  Coming to the point, I find GPL horribly complicated, I wonder if even RMS understands it properly. :-)

  OTOH however BSD license is so simple. 

  Now, I like to be practical too.

  Companies flout GPL left, right and center. (Sorry for this Indian English :-)

	If you want to know which company in Chennai does that I will tell you in private. :-)

	And there are many more around the world. Compare this to piracy.

	So laying down laws are not the solution.

This is like the practice followed in Tamil Nadu engg colleges to keep boys from not interacting with girls.
Does it help? No, it only hurts.

Or, rather let me put it this way to avoid hurting the academicians in the list. Maybe it helps, but you overdo
it. 

Lawmakers should be practical and be pragmatic in their approach.
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Ramanraj K | 13 Oct 11:42
Picon

Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

*



Girish Venkatachalam wrote:

>   Companies flout GPL left, right and center. (Sorry for this Indian English :-)
> 
>   If you want to know which company in Chennai does that I will tell you in private. :-)


You may write to rms@... about any GPL violation you know of, if it relates
to GNU software maintained by FSF, or otherwise to the respective owners of the
copyright.

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Krishna P | 12 Oct 15:49
Picon

Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

On 10/12/06, Girish Venkatachalam
<girishvenkatachalam@...> wrote:

*



>
> On Thu, Oct 12, 2006 at 05:51:58PM +0530, Ramanraj K wrote:
> > Mano wrote:
> <gory details snipped>
> > What appeared to be originally free is slowly and gradually turning
> > non-free and could easily become just the usual dull and boring bait and
> > switch variety of the usual "free" products available in a market place.
> > Rather than collecting any license fees indirectly or imposing terms and
> > conditions with trademarks as an excuse, it would be more straight
> forward
> I am a simple man who loves simplicity. To quote Einstein,
>
>   " Everything should be kept simple, no simpler."
>
>   There is a lot of wisdom in the few words coming from one of the
> foremost thinkers of the last century.
>
>   IOW, solutions should be simple and not simplistic.
>
>   Coming to the point, I find GPL horribly complicated, I wonder if even
> RMS understands it properly. :-)
>
>   OTOH however BSD license is so simple.


Its simple, I agree with it.
Take linux it is  surviving because of its GPL license with copy left
feature, unlike *BSD many part of code are taken by properitary companies,
and has become proprietary.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSD_and_GPL_licensing

Bye,
Krishna.
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Kenneth Gonsalves | 13 Oct 02:49

Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?


On 12-Oct-06, at 7:19 PM, Krishna P wrote:


*



> Its simple, I agree with it.
> Take linux it is  surviving because of its GPL license with copy left
> feature, unlike *BSD many part of code are taken by properitary  
> companies,
> and has become proprietary.


how do you say it has become proprietary? Arent those parts still  
used by BSD? Or is BSD prevented from using them? I listened to Eben  
Moglen the other day and he said something like this: If i have money  
and you dont, and i give you money, then you have money and i dont.  
If I have knowledge and you dont, and i give you knowledge, we both  
have knowledge. Or, if i have source code and you dont, and i give  
you my source code, then we both have source code, [even if you hide  
yours from the world.] The part in square brackets is my own addition.

As far as i can see, *BSD is surviving also, as are postgresql, sqlite 
(public domain), apache, subversion, zope, plone, python, php and  
thousands of other packages, in spite of the fact that they have bsd- 
style licenses.

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Krishna P | 13 Oct 08:45
Picon

Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

*



On 10/13/06, Kenneth Gonsalves <lawgon@...> wrote:
>
>
> On 12-Oct-06, at 7:19 PM, Krishna P wrote:
>
> > Its simple, I agree with it.
> > Take linux it is  surviving because of its GPL license with copy left
> > feature, unlike *BSD many part of code are taken by properitary
> > companies,
> > and has become proprietary.
>
> how do you say it has become proprietary?
>


Proprietory in the sense, Fixes made by them(proprietory company) arent
going to be ported . I agree that *BSD evolves but  not like Linux , Im
talking in terms of license.

Bye,
Krishna.

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Kenneth Gonsalves | 13 Oct 09:09

Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?


On 13-Oct-06, at 12:15 PM, Krishna P wrote:


*



> Proprietory in the sense, Fixes made by them(proprietory company)  
> arent
> going to be ported


who cares - fixes are probably crap anyway

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Binand Sethumadhavan | 13 Oct 09:12
Picon

Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

*



On 13/10/06, Kenneth Gonsalves <lawgon@...> wrote:
> > Proprietory in the sense, Fixes made by them(proprietory company)
> > arent
> > going to be ported
>
> who cares - fixes are probably crap anyway


I think one Mr. Richard Stallman did care.

Binand
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Kenneth Gonsalves | 13 Oct 09:33

Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?


On 13-Oct-06, at 12:42 PM, Binand Sethumadhavan wrote:


*



>> > Proprietory in the sense, Fixes made by them(proprietory company)
>> > arent
>> > going to be ported
>>
>> who cares - fixes are probably crap anyway
>
> I think one Mr. Richard Stallman did care.


that is the difference between the GPL point of view and the BSD  
point of view

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Binand Sethumadhavan | 13 Oct 09:29
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

*



On 13/10/06, Kenneth Gonsalves <lawgon@...> wrote:
> that is the difference between the GPL point of view and the BSD
> point of view


Oh yes. And by saying that YOU didn't care, you have effectively ruled
yourself out of the GPL point of view. Next flamewar, please.

Binand
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Kenneth Gonsalves | 13 Oct 09:45

Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?


On 13-Oct-06, at 12:59 PM, Binand Sethumadhavan wrote:


*



>> that is the difference between the GPL point of view and the BSD
>> point of view
>
> Oh yes. And by saying that YOU didn't care, you have effectively ruled
> yourself out of the GPL point of view. Next flamewar, please.


no - if i was writing code for a business, i would go the BSD way. if  
i was writing to contribute to or contribute back to the community i  
would go the GPL way. If i was using other's modules, again,  
depending on what i want to do, i would choose modules with the  
appropriate license. I have learnt a lot by seeing how mysql has  
messed themselves up by trying to ride two horses going in different  
directions with dual licensing based on GPL.

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Krishna P | 13 Oct 09:11
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

*



On 10/13/06, Kenneth Gonsalves <lawgon@...> wrote:
>
>
> who cares - fixes are probably crap anyway


thats true ;-)

Bye,
Krishna.
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Kenneth Gonsalves | 12 Oct 14:41

Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?


On 12-Oct-06, at 5:51 PM, Ramanraj K wrote:


*



> - For sometome now, Linus Torvalds has been making claims that  
> "Linux" is a trademark and demanding that people using "Linux" pay  
> a license fee.


who has he demanded this license fee from?

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Chakkaradeep C C | 12 Oct 14:45
Picon

Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

*



>
> who has he demanded this license fee from?

>From Wikipedia <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_Mark_Institute>,


*The Linux Mark Institute (LMI) is an organization which administers the
"Linux" **trademark* <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trademark>* on behalf of
**Linus Torvalds* <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linus_Torvalds>* for
computer **software* <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software>* which includes
the **Linux kernel* <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_kernel>*, computer
hardware utilizing Linux-based software, and for services associated with
the implementation and documentation of Linux-based products.*

*The Linux trademark is owned by Linus Torvalds in the U.S., Germany, the
European Community, and Japan. In the U.S., the mark is registered (U.S Reg.
No.: 1916230) for "Computer operating system software to facilitate computer
use and operation." The assignment of the trademark to Torvalds occurred
after an attorney, one William R. Della Croce, Jr, in
**1996*≤http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996>
* began sending letters to various Linux distributors claiming to own the
Linux trademark and demanding royalties. The distributors rapidly pooled
resources, appealed against the original trademark assignment and had it
reassigned to Linus Torvalds.*
And the Official Link - The Linux Mark Institute <http://www.linuxmark.org/>

Here is clear explanation from the site -

*Examples of Fair Use.
If you are a journalist interested in writing articles that include the term
"Linux," you do not need a sublicense.** If you are printing up pencils,
stenciling T-shirts, or distributing coffee cups with a legend on them like
"Linux(r)is the greatest!" or "Even my Mother uses Linux(r)!" this is normally
considered "fair use".
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Kenneth Gonsalves | 12 Oct 15:04

Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?


On 12-Oct-06, at 6:15 PM, Chakkaradeep C C wrote:


*



>> who has he demanded this license fee from?
>
>
>
>> From Wikipedia <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_Mark_Institute>,


that doesnt answer my question: 'who has he demanded the license fee  
from?"

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Chakkaradeep C C | 12 Oct 15:07
Picon

Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

*



>
> that doesnt answer my question: 'who has he demanded the license fee
> from?"


Hoping this would answer you - http://www.linuxmark.org/lmi_news.html

That link says that there is also a case going on at Australia :)

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Kenneth Gonsalves | 13 Oct 02:38

Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?


On 12-Oct-06, at 6:37 PM, Chakkaradeep C C wrote:


*



> Hoping this would answer you - http://www.linuxmark.org/lmi_news.html
>
> That link says that there is also a case going on at Australia :)


i am unable to find any reference to any case going on at Australia  
in the link

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Rahul Sundaram | 12 Oct 15:34
Favicon

Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

*



Chakkaradeep C C wrote:
>>
>> that doesnt answer my question: 'who has he demanded the license fee
>> from?"
> 
> 
> Hoping this would answer you - http://www.linuxmark.org/lmi_news.html
> 
> That link says that there is also a case going on at Australia :)


No. That link doesnt answer it. Linus personally doesnt get any money 
from the trademark license. It goes towards enforcing the trademark to 
the LMI. If you dont enforce the trademark you lose it and "Linux" as a 
name has been abused before which is what LMI is trying to prevent.

http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95

Rahul
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Kenneth Gonsalves | 13 Oct 02:42

Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?


On 12-Oct-06, at 7:04 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:


*



>>>
>>> that doesnt answer my question: 'who has he demanded the license fee
>>> from?"
>> Hoping this would answer you - http://www.linuxmark.org/lmi_news.html
>> That link says that there is also a case going on at Australia :)
>
> No. That link doesnt answer it. Linus personally doesnt get any  
> money from the trademark license. It goes towards enforcing the  
> trademark to the LMI. If you dont enforce the trademark you lose it  
> and "Linux" as a name has been abused before which is what LMI is  
> trying to prevent.


i didnt want to say this before, but i think there is a deliberate  
attempt here, by giving links and making half true statements, to  
make people think that Linus is doing something underhand. Hence  
words like 'linus is demanding royalties' and 'a case is going on in  
australia'.

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Mano | 13 Oct 03:44
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

*



On 10/13/06, Kenneth Gonsalves <lawgon@...> wrote:
>
>
> i didnt want to say this before, but i think there is a deliberate
> attempt here, by giving links and making half true statements, to
> make people think that Linus is doing something underhand.
>


Am afraid this accusation is true. I had known about the Australian trouble
but when I read the post accusing Linus of demanding royalties I thought
this is 'news' to me. Now I know it is no more new than the australian
incident. Looks like it is a (wilful?) misinterpretation.

regds,
mano
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Kannan Krishnan | 14 Oct 08:51
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

Hi,


*



>On 10/13/06, Mano <manokaran@...> wrote:
> this is 'news' to me. Now I know it is no more new than the australian
> incident. Looks like it is a (wilful?) misinterpretation.


+1, I have read his biography (http://www.thinkgeek.com/books/nonfiction/38b2/)
, in which he answers one question during interview with the author ..
It goes like this

Question : "Have you made a million dollars ?"
Linus : (Smiles) May be i have won a million hearts.

Kannan

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Mano | 13 Oct 04:00
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Re: Is the proprietary camp winning ?

*



On 10/13/06, Mano <manokaran@...> wrote:
>
> On 10/13/06, Kenneth Gonsalves <lawgon@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > i didnt want to say this before, but i think there is a deliberate
> > attempt here, by giving links and making half true statements, to
> > make people think that Linus is doing something underhand.
> >
>
> Am afraid this accusation is true. I had known about the Australian
> trouble but when I read the post accusing Linus of demanding royalties I
> thought this is 'news' to me. Now I know it is no more new than the
> australian incident. Looks like it is a (wilful?) misinterpretation.


Is this because Linus has rubbished GPLv3? Going through the original
accusation again, I get this feeling!!

regds,
mano
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