Danny Ayers | 29 Mar 21:39 2010
Picon

call to arms

Right now, despite the promise, things seem mired in the mud. People
aren't seeing the things that the Web of Data has proposed.

How do we get over this?

Face to face maybe - the bits the interwebs can't provide.

I suggest the leading lights of this sturm sit down in a room
somewhere in northern Europe, and hammer the damn thing down. It is so
stupid for it to take so long.

The Internet, and the Web is excellent at providing miraculous stuff,
but the humans that tie the things together seem to be disappearing
into different worlds.

The Semantic Web should be useful by now, by anyone's predictions.

something better change

(I'm a scaredy pacifist, so don't take that to heart)

--

-- 
http://danny.ayers.name

Sandro Hawke | 29 Mar 22:00 2010
Picon

Re: call to arms


> Right now, despite the promise, things seem mired in the mud. People
> aren't seeing the things that the Web of Data has proposed.
> 
> How do we get over this?
> 
> Face to face maybe - the bits the interwebs can't provide.
> 
> I suggest the leading lights of this sturm sit down in a room
> somewhere in northern Europe, and hammer the damn thing down. It is so
> stupid for it to take so long.
> 
> The Internet, and the Web is excellent at providing miraculous stuff,
> but the humans that tie the things together seem to be disappearing
> into different worlds.
> 
> The Semantic Web should be useful by now, by anyone's predictions.
> 
> something better change
> 
> (I'm a scaredy pacifist, so don't take that to heart)

I think I'll just pitch the RDF Next Steps Workshop [1] as one concrete
way to make progress.  The deadline for position papers was just
extended by a week, so it's now 13 days away.  If you have a
fundamental-technology idea for how to advance the cause, please write
it down and send it in.  [ Oh, and if you can come to California.  Alas,
I know, that's not practical for everyone.  :-( ]

As for a "call to arms", well, I suggest each person think about this
(Continue reading)

Brian Manley | 29 Mar 22:16 2010
Picon

Re: call to arms

I humbly concur with Daniel's observations and suggestions. :P

On Mar 29, 2010, at 12:39 PM, Danny Ayers <danny.ayers <at> gmail.com> wrote:

> Right now, despite the promise, things seem mired in the mud. People
> aren't seeing the things that the Web of Data has proposed.
>
> How do we get over this?
>
> Face to face maybe - the bits the interwebs can't provide.
>
> I suggest the leading lights of this sturm sit down in a room
> somewhere in northern Europe, and hammer the damn thing down. It is so
> stupid for it to take so long.
>
> The Internet, and the Web is excellent at providing miraculous stuff,
> but the humans that tie the things together seem to be disappearing
> into different worlds.
>
> The Semantic Web should be useful by now, by anyone's predictions.
>
> something better change
>
> (I'm a scaredy pacifist, so don't take that to heart)
>
> -- 
> http://danny.ayers.name
>

(Continue reading)

Michael F Uschold | 1 Apr 00:01 2010
Picon

Re: call to arms

I concur. The examples are great, if you are a programmer. The semantic web will be truly off the ground when all the functionality  described by Melvin is built-in to everyday desktop software.


Michael

On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 1:16 PM, Brian Manley <brian.manley <at> gmail.com> wrote:
I humbly concur with Daniel's observations and suggestions. :P


On Mar 29, 2010, at 12:39 PM, Danny Ayers <danny.ayers <at> gmail.com> wrote:

Right now, despite the promise, things seem mired in the mud. People
aren't seeing the things that the Web of Data has proposed.

How do we get over this?

Face to face maybe - the bits the interwebs can't provide.

I suggest the leading lights of this sturm sit down in a room
somewhere in northern Europe, and hammer the damn thing down. It is so
stupid for it to take so long.

The Internet, and the Web is excellent at providing miraculous stuff,
but the humans that tie the things together seem to be disappearing
into different worlds.

The Semantic Web should be useful by now, by anyone's predictions.

something better change

(I'm a scaredy pacifist, so don't take that to heart)

--
http://danny.ayers.name



Gunnar Aastrand Grimnes | 16 Apr 11:21 2010
Picon

Re: call to arms


On 01/04/10 00:01, Michael F Uschold wrote:
> I concur. The examples are great, if you are a programmer. The semantic
> web will be truly off the ground when all the functionality  described
> by Melvin is built-in to everyday desktop software.

And there - the amount of semantics that are getting snuck into KDE4.X 
are amazing.

Virtuoso with sparql endpoint on every (KDE) desktop!
All your PIM data as RDF.
etc.

--

-- 
Gunnar Aastrand Grimnes
DFKI GmbH
http://www.dfki.uni-kl.de/~grimnes

Danny Ayers | 17 Apr 16:22 2010
Picon

Re: call to arms

On 16 April 2010 11:21, Gunnar Aastrand Grimnes <gunnar.grimnes <at> dfki.de> wrote:

>
> Virtuoso with sparql endpoint on every (KDE) desktop!
> All your PIM data as RDF.
> etc.

How?

I have a reasonably recent laptop, I want this stuff. Talk me through
what I need to do.

(er, is it possible on Gnome/Ubuntu default?)

--

-- 
http://danny.ayers.name

adasal | 17 Apr 16:54 2010
Picon

Re: call to arms

Ah, boy, there's a question.
Three alternative in principle.
Virtual machine can be good.
KDE for windows - when you say recent laptop I assume windows, or maybe Mac?
Partition and install, which I would personally go for.
If you have a Mac maybe KDE for mac is up to scratch now, but I doubt it. Last I looked, <2 months ago, not everything had been migrated, there is a KDE for mac project.
As far as I know it isn't possible on gnome, everything has been tied in with KDE.
You may spend a lot of time on this and still be met with disappointment. Last I looked also <2 months ago, there is no real working version. However there a lot of dependencies and different KDE versions, it can be difficult to upgrade a KDE version, my position, as opposed to install a new one from scratch. It may be that the latest KDE does offer a functioning version.

The project is nepomuk
http://nepomuk.kde.org/aggregator/categories/1
The last post is from february.
http://nepomuk.kde.org/discover/developer
= useful.
Trueg also has a blog.

Adam


On 17 April 2010 15:22, Danny Ayers <danny.ayers <at> gmail.com> wrote:
On 16 April 2010 11:21, Gunnar Aastrand Grimnes <gunnar.grimnes <at> dfki.de> wrote:

>
> Virtuoso with sparql endpoint on every (KDE) desktop!
> All your PIM data as RDF.
> etc.

How?

I have a reasonably recent laptop, I want this stuff. Talk me through
what I need to do.

(er, is it possible on Gnome/Ubuntu default?)



--
http://danny.ayers.name


Danny Ayers | 17 Apr 18:35 2010
Picon

Re: call to arms

how easy is it to flip from Gnome to KDE?

On 17 April 2010 16:54, adasal <adam.saltiel <at> gmail.com> wrote:
> Ah, boy, there's a question.
> Three alternative in principle.
> Virtual machine can be good.
> KDE for windows - when you say recent laptop I assume windows, or maybe Mac?
> Partition and install, which I would personally go for.
> If you have a Mac maybe KDE for mac is up to scratch now, but I doubt it.
> Last I looked, <2 months ago, not everything had been migrated, there is a
> KDE for mac project.
> As far as I know it isn't possible on gnome, everything has been tied in
> with KDE.
> You may spend a lot of time on this and still be met with disappointment.
> Last I looked also <2 months ago, there is no real working version. However
> there a lot of dependencies and different KDE versions, it can be difficult
> to upgrade a KDE version, my position, as opposed to install a new one from
> scratch. It may be that the latest KDE does offer a functioning version.
>
> The project is nepomuk
> http://nepomuk.kde.org/aggregator/categories/1
> The last post is from february.
> http://nepomuk.kde.org/discover/developer
> = useful.
> Trueg also has a blog.
>
> Adam
>
>
> On 17 April 2010 15:22, Danny Ayers <danny.ayers <at> gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On 16 April 2010 11:21, Gunnar Aastrand Grimnes <gunnar.grimnes <at> dfki.de>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > Virtuoso with sparql endpoint on every (KDE) desktop!
>> > All your PIM data as RDF.
>> > etc.
>>
>> How?
>>
>> I have a reasonably recent laptop, I want this stuff. Talk me through
>> what I need to do.
>>
>> (er, is it possible on Gnome/Ubuntu default?)
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> http://danny.ayers.name
>>
>
>

--

-- 
http://danny.ayers.name

Danny Ayers | 17 Apr 18:37 2010
Picon

Re: call to arms

On 17 April 2010 18:35, Danny Ayers <danny.ayers <at> gmail.com> wrote:
> how easy is it to flip from Gnome to KDE?
>

sorry, from Ubuntu default - personally I'm up for it, if there is the
possibility of my computer experience being more useful

Anthony Bryan | 17 Apr 18:50 2010
Picon

Re: call to arms

On Sat, Apr 17, 2010 at 12:37 PM, Danny Ayers <danny.ayers <at> gmail.com> wrote:
> On 17 April 2010 18:35, Danny Ayers <danny.ayers <at> gmail.com> wrote:
>> how easy is it to flip from Gnome to KDE?
>>
>
> sorry, from Ubuntu default - personally I'm up for it, if there is the
> possibility of my computer experience being more useful

use one of the GUI package managers or try something like 'sudo
apt-get install kubuntu-desktop', then select KDE from the login
screen.

I don't think it was ever done, but one of the ideas was to use
metalink (XML) to populate the local RDF store w/ information about
downloads. there's that GRDDL profile you worked up a bit ago.
--

-- 
(( Anthony Bryan ... Metalink [ http://www.metalinker.org ]
  )) Easier, More Reliable, Self Healing Downloads

Danny Ayers | 17 Apr 19:17 2010
Picon

Re: call to arms

On 17 April 2010 18:50, Anthony Bryan <anthonybryan <at> gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 17, 2010 at 12:37 PM, Danny Ayers <danny.ayers <at> gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 17 April 2010 18:35, Danny Ayers <danny.ayers <at> gmail.com> wrote:
>>> how easy is it to flip from Gnome to KDE?
>>>
>>
>> sorry, from Ubuntu default - personally I'm up for it, if there is the
>> possibility of my computer experience being more useful
>
> use one of the GUI package managers or try something like 'sudo
> apt-get install kubuntu-desktop', then select KDE from the login
> screen.

After this operation, 515MB of additional disk space will be used.

hope so, not like I'm collecting pr0n on this drive

> I don't think it was ever done, but one of the ideas was to use
> metalink (XML) to populate the local RDF store w/ information about
> downloads. there's that GRDDL profile you worked up a bit ago.

Indeed. Shame on me I didn't realise it was you.

> (( Anthony Bryan ... Metalink [ http://www.metalinker.org ]
>  )) Easier, More Reliable, Self Healing Downloads
>
>

--

-- 
http://danny.ayers.name

Danny Ayers | 17 Apr 19:22 2010
Picon

Re: call to arms

Anthony, I know you know your stuff. Out of curiosity could I ask what
you think of the SWIG list?

On 17 April 2010 19:17, Danny Ayers <danny.ayers <at> gmail.com> wrote:
> On 17 April 2010 18:50, Anthony Bryan <anthonybryan <at> gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, Apr 17, 2010 at 12:37 PM, Danny Ayers <danny.ayers <at> gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 17 April 2010 18:35, Danny Ayers <danny.ayers <at> gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> how easy is it to flip from Gnome to KDE?
>>>>
>>>
>>> sorry, from Ubuntu default - personally I'm up for it, if there is the
>>> possibility of my computer experience being more useful
>>
>> use one of the GUI package managers or try something like 'sudo
>> apt-get install kubuntu-desktop', then select KDE from the login
>> screen.
>
> After this operation, 515MB of additional disk space will be used.
>
> hope so, not like I'm collecting pr0n on this drive
>
>
>> I don't think it was ever done, but one of the ideas was to use
>> metalink (XML) to populate the local RDF store w/ information about
>> downloads. there's that GRDDL profile you worked up a bit ago.
>
> Indeed. Shame on me I didn't realise it was you.
>
>> (( Anthony Bryan ... Metalink [ http://www.metalinker.org ]
>>  )) Easier, More Reliable, Self Healing Downloads
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> http://danny.ayers.name
>

--

-- 
http://danny.ayers.name

Toby Inkster | 19 Apr 20:44 2010
Picon

Re: call to arms

On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 18:35:16 +0200
Danny Ayers <danny.ayers <at> gmail.com> wrote:

> how easy is it to flip from Gnome to KDE?

You can run KDE programs within GNOME and vice versa.

--

-- 
Toby A Inkster
<mailto:mail <at> tobyinkster.co.uk>
<http://tobyinkster.co.uk>

adasal | 19 Apr 23:49 2010
Picon

Re: call to arms

Can you run dolphin within gnome? I think that nepomuk is intimately tied to it, and some other applications that I had thought were KDE specific. The point is that KDE pulls in the correct set of dependencies for that version. That would be more difficult outside of KDE.

Adam

On 19 April 2010 19:44, Toby Inkster <tai <at> g5n.co.uk> wrote:
On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 18:35:16 +0200
Danny Ayers <danny.ayers <at> gmail.com> wrote:

> how easy is it to flip from Gnome to KDE?

You can run KDE programs within GNOME and vice versa.

--
Toby A Inkster
<mailto:mail <at> tobyinkster.co.uk>
<http://tobyinkster.co.uk>


Toby Inkster | 20 Apr 00:27 2010
Picon

Re: call to arms

On Mon, 19 Apr 2010 22:49:06 +0100
adasal <adam.saltiel <at> gmail.com> wrote:

> Can you run dolphin within gnome? 

Of course. They're all just X-Windows programs. You could run it within
fluxbox or fvwm I'm sure.

> I think that nepomuk is intimately tied to it, and some other
> applications that I had thought were KDE specific. The point is that
> KDE pulls in the correct set of dependencies for that version. That
> would be more difficult outside of KDE.

KDE's libraries and other supporting files would obviously need to be
installed, but I'd expect the distribution's package manager to take
care of that.

--

-- 
Toby A Inkster
<mailto:mail <at> tobyinkster.co.uk>
<http://tobyinkster.co.uk>

Melvin Carvalho | 17 Apr 17:41 2010
Picon

Re: call to arms



2010/4/16 Gunnar Aastrand Grimnes <gunnar.grimnes <at> dfki.de>


On 01/04/10 00:01, Michael F Uschold wrote:
I concur. The examples are great, if you are a programmer. The semantic
web will be truly off the ground when all the functionality  described
by Melvin is built-in to everyday desktop software.


And there - the amount of semantics that are getting snuck into KDE4.X are amazing.

Virtuoso with sparql endpoint on every (KDE) desktop!
All your PIM data as RDF.

It's absolutely huge, and we're 2 weeks away from the next kubuntu.  This could be a game changer.

I got virtuoso open source running on gnome (thanks nathan), and the functionality is immense. 

Nepomuk + virtuoso will start to make kde very attractive as a semantic power desktop ...

 
etc.


--
Gunnar Aastrand Grimnes
DFKI GmbH
http://www.dfki.uni-kl.de/~grimnes


Paola Di Maio | 17 Apr 18:25 2010
Picon

Re: call to arms

Thanks Melvin


Can you  or someone please, as Danny asked, kindly jot down the process
for the rest of us?

such as what to downnload/install, any config notes, and what actions to carry out ?


 Maybe even set up a wiki page somwehre where people can report their experiences/test some data sets, etc

i
thanks

PDM

On Sat, Apr 17, 2010 at 3:41 PM, Melvin Carvalho <melvincarvalho <at> gmail.com> wrote:


2010/4/16 Gunnar Aastrand Grimnes <gunnar.grimnes <at> dfki.de>



On 01/04/10 00:01, Michael F Uschold wrote:
I concur. The examples are great, if you are a programmer. The semantic
web will be truly off the ground when all the functionality  described
by Melvin is built-in to everyday desktop software.


And there - the amount of semantics that are getting snuck into KDE4.X are amazing.

Virtuoso with sparql endpoint on every (KDE) desktop!
All your PIM data as RDF.

It's absolutely huge, and we're 2 weeks away from the next kubuntu.  This could be a game changer.

I got virtuoso open source running on gnome (thanks nathan), and the functionality is immense. 

Nepomuk + virtuoso will start to make kde very attractive as a semantic power desktop ...

 
etc.


--
Gunnar Aastrand Grimnes
DFKI GmbH
http://www.dfki.uni-kl.de/~grimnes





--
Paola Di Maio
**************************************************
“Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
Albert Einstein
**************************************************

Melvin Carvalho | 17 Apr 18:34 2010
Picon

Re: call to arms



2010/4/17 Paola Di Maio <paola.dimaio <at> gmail.com>
Thanks Melvin

Can you  or someone please, as Danny asked, kindly jot down the process
for the rest of us?

such as what to downnload/install, any config notes, and what actions to carry out ?

Everything you need is here:

http://virtuoso.openlinksw.com/dataspace/dav/wiki/Main/

But in brief:

1. Download the latest version (6.1)
2. Unpack the file
3. cd to the unpacked directory
4. ./conrigure
5. sudo make install
6. sudo /usr/local/virtuoso-opensource/bin/virtuoso-t

Then start trying it out on http://<your-host>:8890 replacing your-host with the host you're running on ...

Hope that helps! 
 


 Maybe even set up a wiki page somwehre where people can report their experiences/test some data sets, etc

i
thanks

PDM

On Sat, Apr 17, 2010 at 3:41 PM, Melvin Carvalho <melvincarvalho <at> gmail.com> wrote:


2010/4/16 Gunnar Aastrand Grimnes <gunnar.grimnes <at> dfki.de>



On 01/04/10 00:01, Michael F Uschold wrote:
I concur. The examples are great, if you are a programmer. The semantic
web will be truly off the ground when all the functionality  described
by Melvin is built-in to everyday desktop software.


And there - the amount of semantics that are getting snuck into KDE4.X are amazing.

Virtuoso with sparql endpoint on every (KDE) desktop!
All your PIM data as RDF.

It's absolutely huge, and we're 2 weeks away from the next kubuntu.  This could be a game changer.

I got virtuoso open source running on gnome (thanks nathan), and the functionality is immense. 

Nepomuk + virtuoso will start to make kde very attractive as a semantic power desktop ...

 
etc.


--
Gunnar Aastrand Grimnes
DFKI GmbH
http://www.dfki.uni-kl.de/~grimnes





--
Paola Di Maio
**************************************************
“Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
Albert Einstein
**************************************************


Danny Ayers | 17 Apr 18:47 2010
Picon

Re: call to arms

I am now downloading, this machine hasn't seen Virtuoso before.

I have a slow line, enough to say - should not this be a cloud thing?
My(data)Space?

Ideally I'd like the front end stuff that OpenLink offer, and a Talis back end.

On 17 April 2010 18:34, Melvin Carvalho <melvincarvalho <at> gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> 2010/4/17 Paola Di Maio <paola.dimaio <at> gmail.com>
>>
>> Thanks Melvin
>> Can you  or someone please, as Danny asked, kindly jot down the process
>> for the rest of us?
>> such as what to downnload/install, any config notes, and what actions to
>> carry out ?
>
> Everything you need is here:
>
> http://virtuoso.openlinksw.com/dataspace/dav/wiki/Main/
>
> But in brief:
>
> 1. Download the latest version (6.1)
> 2. Unpack the file
> 3. cd to the unpacked directory
> 4. ./conrigure
> 5. sudo make install
> 6. sudo /usr/local/virtuoso-opensource/bin/virtuoso-t
>
> Then start trying it out on http://<your-host>:8890 replacing your-host with
> the host you're running on ...
>
> Hope that helps!
>
>>
>>  Maybe even set up a wiki page somwehre where people can report
>> their experiences/test some data sets, etc
>> i
>> thanks
>> PDM
>> On Sat, Apr 17, 2010 at 3:41 PM, Melvin Carvalho
>> <melvincarvalho <at> gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> 2010/4/16 Gunnar Aastrand Grimnes <gunnar.grimnes <at> dfki.de>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 01/04/10 00:01, Michael F Uschold wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I concur. The examples are great, if you are a programmer. The semantic
>>>>> web will be truly off the ground when all the functionality  described
>>>>> by Melvin is built-in to everyday desktop software.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And there - the amount of semantics that are getting snuck into KDE4.X
>>>> are amazing.
>>>>
>>>> Virtuoso with sparql endpoint on every (KDE) desktop!
>>>> All your PIM data as RDF.
>>>
>>> It's absolutely huge, and we're 2 weeks away from the next kubuntu.  This
>>> could be a game changer.
>>>
>>> I got virtuoso open source running on gnome (thanks nathan), and the
>>> functionality is immense.
>>>
>>> Nepomuk + virtuoso will start to make kde very attractive as a semantic
>>> power desktop ...
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> etc.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Gunnar Aastrand Grimnes
>>>> DFKI GmbH
>>>> http://www.dfki.uni-kl.de/~grimnes
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Paola Di Maio
>> **************************************************
>> “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
>> Albert Einstein
>> **************************************************
>>
>
>

--

-- 
http://danny.ayers.name

Paola Di Maio | 17 Apr 18:54 2010
Picon

Re: call to arms

was thinking the same thing


personally, Ill most grateful when I dont have to download/install anything to browse RDF/linked data sets
thats why i so like RELFinder concept (in principle, still work to do to that interneface but in the right direction)
in the meantime,  may decide to give the download a go,

where does nopomuck fit in? have been waiting to use nepomuck ...
thanks

PDM


On Sat, Apr 17, 2010 at 4:47 PM, Danny Ayers <danny.ayers <at> gmail.com> wrote:
I am now downloading, this machine hasn't seen Virtuoso before.

I have a slow line, enough to say - should not this be a cloud thing?
My(data)Space?

Ideally I'd like the front end stuff that OpenLink offer, and a Talis back end.



On 17 April 2010 18:34, Melvin Carvalho <melvincarvalho <at> gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> 2010/4/17 Paola Di Maio <paola.dimaio <at> gmail.com>
>>
>> Thanks Melvin
>> Can you  or someone please, as Danny asked, kindly jot down the process
>> for the rest of us?
>> such as what to downnload/install, any config notes, and what actions to
>> carry out ?
>
> Everything you need is here:
>
> http://virtuoso.openlinksw.com/dataspace/dav/wiki/Main/
>
> But in brief:
>
> 1. Download the latest version (6.1)
> 2. Unpack the file
> 3. cd to the unpacked directory
> 4. ./conrigure
> 5. sudo make install
> 6. sudo /usr/local/virtuoso-opensource/bin/virtuoso-t
>
> Then start trying it out on http://<your-host>:8890 replacing your-host with
> the host you're running on ...
>
> Hope that helps!
>
>>
>>  Maybe even set up a wiki page somwehre where people can report
>> their experiences/test some data sets, etc
>> i
>> thanks
>> PDM
>> On Sat, Apr 17, 2010 at 3:41 PM, Melvin Carvalho
>> <melvincarvalho <at> gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> 2010/4/16 Gunnar Aastrand Grimnes <gunnar.grimnes <at> dfki.de>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 01/04/10 00:01, Michael F Uschold wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I concur. The examples are great, if you are a programmer. The semantic
>>>>> web will be truly off the ground when all the functionality  described
>>>>> by Melvin is built-in to everyday desktop software.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And there - the amount of semantics that are getting snuck into KDE4.X
>>>> are amazing.
>>>>
>>>> Virtuoso with sparql endpoint on every (KDE) desktop!
>>>> All your PIM data as RDF.
>>>
>>> It's absolutely huge, and we're 2 weeks away from the next kubuntu.  This
>>> could be a game changer.
>>>
>>> I got virtuoso open source running on gnome (thanks nathan), and the
>>> functionality is immense.
>>>
>>> Nepomuk + virtuoso will start to make kde very attractive as a semantic
>>> power desktop ...
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> etc.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Gunnar Aastrand Grimnes
>>>> DFKI GmbH
>>>> http://www.dfki.uni-kl.de/~grimnes
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Paola Di Maio
>> **************************************************
>> “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
>> Albert Einstein
>> **************************************************
>>
>
>



--
http://danny.ayers.name



--
Paola Di Maio
**************************************************
“Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
Albert Einstein
**************************************************

adasal | 17 Apr 19:51 2010
Picon

Re: call to arms

Nepomuk + virtuoso will start to make kde very attractive as a semantic power desktop ...

No, as an *experimental* semantic power desktop. Which I think is great and in the Linux tradition, but that is what it is at this stage.
And certainly good ideas in it will be taken by the two OS vendors.

Best,

Adam

On 17 April 2010 16:41, Melvin Carvalho <melvincarvalho <at> gmail.com> wrote:


2010/4/16 Gunnar Aastrand Grimnes <gunnar.grimnes <at> dfki.de>



On 01/04/10 00:01, Michael F Uschold wrote:
I concur. The examples are great, if you are a programmer. The semantic
web will be truly off the ground when all the functionality  described
by Melvin is built-in to everyday desktop software.


And there - the amount of semantics that are getting snuck into KDE4.X are amazing.

Virtuoso with sparql endpoint on every (KDE) desktop!
All your PIM data as RDF.

It's absolutely huge, and we're 2 weeks away from the next kubuntu.  This could be a game changer.

I got virtuoso open source running on gnome (thanks nathan), and the functionality is immense. 

Nepomuk + virtuoso will start to make kde very attractive as a semantic power desktop ...

 
etc.


--
Gunnar Aastrand Grimnes
DFKI GmbH
http://www.dfki.uni-kl.de/~grimnes



Danny Ayers | 17 Apr 20:27 2010
Picon

Re: call to arms

this is a pain
I hoped for a 100 posts on the other thread :)

On 17 April 2010 19:51, adasal <adam.saltiel <at> gmail.com> wrote:
>> Nepomuk + virtuoso will start to make kde very attractive as a semantic
>> power desktop ...
>
> No, as an *experimental* semantic power desktop. Which I think is great and
> in the Linux tradition, but that is what it is at this stage.
> And certainly good ideas in it will be taken by the two OS vendors.
>
> Best,
>
> Adam
>
> On 17 April 2010 16:41, Melvin Carvalho <melvincarvalho <at> gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> 2010/4/16 Gunnar Aastrand Grimnes <gunnar.grimnes <at> dfki.de>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 01/04/10 00:01, Michael F Uschold wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I concur. The examples are great, if you are a programmer. The semantic
>>>> web will be truly off the ground when all the functionality  described
>>>> by Melvin is built-in to everyday desktop software.
>>>
>>>
>>> And there - the amount of semantics that are getting snuck into KDE4.X
>>> are amazing.
>>>
>>> Virtuoso with sparql endpoint on every (KDE) desktop!
>>> All your PIM data as RDF.
>>
>> It's absolutely huge, and we're 2 weeks away from the next kubuntu.  This
>> could be a game changer.
>>
>> I got virtuoso open source running on gnome (thanks nathan), and the
>> functionality is immense.
>>
>> Nepomuk + virtuoso will start to make kde very attractive as a semantic
>> power desktop ...
>>
>>
>>>
>>> etc.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Gunnar Aastrand Grimnes
>>> DFKI GmbH
>>> http://www.dfki.uni-kl.de/~grimnes
>>>
>>
>
>

--

-- 
http://danny.ayers.name

Danny Ayers | 17 Apr 20:34 2010
Picon

Re: call to arms

years ago, timbl talked of it being inverted - problems like the outside world.

your desktop is the world, deal with it!

but I seem to remember MS trying this, did not really get started.

simple questions like where is a place where I can put my doggs, near
here, in spring.

On 17 April 2010 19:51, adasal <adam.saltiel <at> gmail.com> wrote:
>> Nepomuk + virtuoso will start to make kde very attractive as a semantic
>> power desktop ...
>
> No, as an *experimental* semantic power desktop. Which I think is great and
> in the Linux tradition, but that is what it is at this stage.
> And certainly good ideas in it will be taken by the two OS vendors.
>
> Best,
>
> Adam
>
> On 17 April 2010 16:41, Melvin Carvalho <melvincarvalho <at> gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> 2010/4/16 Gunnar Aastrand Grimnes <gunnar.grimnes <at> dfki.de>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 01/04/10 00:01, Michael F Uschold wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I concur. The examples are great, if you are a programmer. The semantic
>>>> web will be truly off the ground when all the functionality  described
>>>> by Melvin is built-in to everyday desktop software.
>>>
>>>
>>> And there - the amount of semantics that are getting snuck into KDE4.X
>>> are amazing.
>>>
>>> Virtuoso with sparql endpoint on every (KDE) desktop!
>>> All your PIM data as RDF.
>>
>> It's absolutely huge, and we're 2 weeks away from the next kubuntu.  This
>> could be a game changer.
>>
>> I got virtuoso open source running on gnome (thanks nathan), and the
>> functionality is immense.
>>
>> Nepomuk + virtuoso will start to make kde very attractive as a semantic
>> power desktop ...
>>
>>
>>>
>>> etc.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Gunnar Aastrand Grimnes
>>> DFKI GmbH
>>> http://www.dfki.uni-kl.de/~grimnes
>>>
>>
>
>

--

-- 
http://danny.ayers.name

Danny Ayers | 17 Apr 20:47 2010
Picon

Re: call to arms

sorry, bit too general

when do I plant my tomatoes? is much more in scope

we have the raw data I'm sure, perhaps even linked. but I still cannot
sit down and get an answer to such questions without a huge amount of
human heuristics. I expect better from the technology

On 17 April 2010 20:34, Danny Ayers <danny.ayers <at> gmail.com> wrote:
> years ago, timbl talked of it being inverted - problems like the outside world.
>
> your desktop is the world, deal with it!
>
> but I seem to remember MS trying this, did not really get started.
>
> simple questions like where is a place where I can put my doggs, near
> here, in spring.
>
>
> On 17 April 2010 19:51, adasal <adam.saltiel <at> gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Nepomuk + virtuoso will start to make kde very attractive as a semantic
>>> power desktop ...
>>
>> No, as an *experimental* semantic power desktop. Which I think is great and
>> in the Linux tradition, but that is what it is at this stage.
>> And certainly good ideas in it will be taken by the two OS vendors.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Adam
>>
>> On 17 April 2010 16:41, Melvin Carvalho <melvincarvalho <at> gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> 2010/4/16 Gunnar Aastrand Grimnes <gunnar.grimnes <at> dfki.de>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 01/04/10 00:01, Michael F Uschold wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I concur. The examples are great, if you are a programmer. The semantic
>>>>> web will be truly off the ground when all the functionality  described
>>>>> by Melvin is built-in to everyday desktop software.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And there - the amount of semantics that are getting snuck into KDE4.X
>>>> are amazing.
>>>>
>>>> Virtuoso with sparql endpoint on every (KDE) desktop!
>>>> All your PIM data as RDF.
>>>
>>> It's absolutely huge, and we're 2 weeks away from the next kubuntu.  This
>>> could be a game changer.
>>>
>>> I got virtuoso open source running on gnome (thanks nathan), and the
>>> functionality is immense.
>>>
>>> Nepomuk + virtuoso will start to make kde very attractive as a semantic
>>> power desktop ...
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> etc.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Gunnar Aastrand Grimnes
>>>> DFKI GmbH
>>>> http://www.dfki.uni-kl.de/~grimnes
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> http://danny.ayers.name
>

--

-- 
http://danny.ayers.name

Karl Dubost | 18 Apr 01:31 2010
Picon

When do I plant my tomatoes? Re: call to arms


Le 18 avr. 2010 à 03:47, Danny Ayers a écrit :
> when do I plant my tomatoes? is much more in scope
> we have the raw data I'm sure, perhaps even linked. but I still cannot
> sit down and get an answer to such questions without a huge amount of
> human heuristics. I expect better from the technology

what about this
http://www.flickr.com/search/?s=rec&ss=2&mt=all&adv=1&w=all&q=tomato+garden+italy&m=text

It's not exactly structured, but that would be possible to make it a bit better. Social networks capture
what people do in some areas of the world.

For example, I'm pretty sure it would be possible to track the progress of cherry blossoms through the
seasons depending on the latitude in Japan. 
http://www.jma.go.jp/jma/en/News/sakura2009.html

Not many gardeners in the south of France ;)
http://search.twitter.com/search?q=+plantations+near%3A%22Nice%2C+France%22+within%3A100km

twitter annotation feature could help in the future.

The other solutions is to pimp above the fence of someone else :)

--

-- 
Karl Dubost
Montréal, QC, Canada
http://www.la-grange.net/karl/

Danny Ayers | 18 Apr 09:19 2010
Picon

Re: When do I plant my tomatoes? Re: call to arms

On 18 April 2010 01:31, Karl Dubost <karl <at> la-grange.net> wrote:
>
> Le 18 avr. 2010 à 03:47, Danny Ayers a écrit :
>> when do I plant my tomatoes? is much more in scope
>> we have the raw data I'm sure, perhaps even linked. but I still cannot
>> sit down and get an answer to such questions without a huge amount of
>> human heuristics. I expect better from the technology
>
> what about this
> http://www.flickr.com/search/?s=rec&ss=2&mt=all&adv=1&w=all&q=tomato+garden+italy&m=text

Very good - I can probably figure out the answer from that, but it is
still relying so much on human heuristics.

> It's not exactly structured, but that would be possible to make it a bit better. Social networks capture
what people do in some areas of the world.

Very good point. The counterpoint to structured data is the real-world
stuff we rely on day to day.

> For example, I'm pretty sure it would be possible to track the progress of cherry blossoms through the
seasons depending on the latitude in Japan.
> http://www.jma.go.jp/jma/en/News/sakura2009.html

Very sweet.

> Not many gardeners in the south of France ;)
> http://search.twitter.com/search?q=+plantations+near%3A%22Nice%2C+France%22+within%3A100km
>
> twitter annotation feature could help in the future.

hmm...

> The other solutions is to pimp above the fence of someone else :)

Absolutely!
But I want my machine to do that for me - Connolly's bane and so on.

Cheers,
Danny.

--

-- 
http://danny.ayers.name

Danny Ayers | 18 Apr 09:24 2010
Picon

Re: When do I plant my tomatoes? Re: call to arms

Sorry, if I make a reference I should provide a link

On 18 April 2010 09:19, Danny Ayers <danny.ayers <at> gmail.com> wrote:

 - Connolly's bane and so on.

http://www.ninebynine.org/SWAD-E/Scenario-HomeNetwork/HomeNetwork/HomeNetwork-347.htm

Roger Menday | 18 Apr 15:31 2010

Re: When do I plant my tomatoes? Re: call to arms


On 18 Apr 2010, at 00:31, Karl Dubost wrote:


Le 18 avr. 2010 à 03:47, Danny Ayers a écrit :
when do I plant my tomatoes? is much more in scope
we have the raw data I'm sure, perhaps even linked. but I still cannot
sit down and get an answer to such questions without a huge amount of
human heuristics. I expect better from the technology

what about this
http://www.flickr.com/search/?s=rec&ss=2&mt=all&adv=1&w=all&q=tomato+garden+italy&m=text

It's not exactly structured, but that would be possible to make it a bit better. Social networks capture what people do in some areas of the world.

For example, I'm pretty sure it would be possible to track the progress of cherry blossoms through the seasons depending on the latitude in Japan.
http://www.jma.go.jp/jma/en/News/sakura2009.html

related, I think. 


Roger


Not many gardeners in the south of France ;)
http://search.twitter.com/search?q=+plantations+near%3A%22Nice%2C+France%22+within%3A100km

twitter annotation feature could help in the future.

The other solutions is to pimp above the fence of someone else :)


--
Karl Dubost
Montréal, QC, Canada
http://www.la-grange.net/karl/




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Michael Schneider | 18 Apr 12:54 2010
Picon

RE: call to arms

Danny Ayers wrote:

>when do I plant my tomatoes?

We are in early Spring now. Tomatoes don't grow well in this period. At
least not in the outside. Well, you can find them in the greenhouse, but
that's probably not what you are looking for. So, I'm afraid, you have to be
patient.

Michael

Danny Ayers | 18 Apr 13:11 2010
Picon

Re: call to arms

On 18 April 2010 12:54, Michael Schneider <schneid <at> fzi.de> wrote:
> Danny Ayers wrote:
>
>>when do I plant my tomatoes?
>
> We are in early Spring now. Tomatoes don't grow well in this period. At
> least not in the outside. Well, you can find them in the greenhouse, but
> that's probably not what you are looking for. So, I'm afraid, you have to be
> patient.

Thank you Michael, but I wish to make you redundant. This box of
circuits in front of me should have told me that.

Did you take into consideration that I live on this side of the
Garfagnana valley?

--

-- 
http://danny.ayers.name

Dan Brickley | 18 Apr 15:17 2010

Re: call to arms

On Sun, Apr 18, 2010 at 1:11 PM, Danny Ayers <danny.ayers <at> gmail.com> wrote:
> On 18 April 2010 12:54, Michael Schneider <schneid <at> fzi.de> wrote:
>> Danny Ayers wrote:
>>
>>>when do I plant my tomatoes?
>>
>> We are in early Spring now. Tomatoes don't grow well in this period. At
>> least not in the outside. Well, you can find them in the greenhouse, but
>> that's probably not what you are looking for. So, I'm afraid, you have to be
>> patient.
>
> Thank you Michael, but I wish to make you redundant. This box of
> circuits in front of me should have told me that.
>
> Did you take into consideration that I live on this side of the
> Garfagnana valley?

When I think about linked information these days, I see three major flavours:

* information in classic document form (analog stuff made of bits;
human-oriented prose, video, imagery)
* information in source-attributed RDF claims (aka Linked Data, quads, etc)
* information in people's heads

For me, the RDFWeb/FOAF story I think has always been about the 3-way
relationship between these different equally important ways of
learning about the world. Linked people *and* linked information.

You can think of lots of aspects of SemWeb as positioned as edges of
this simple triangle where the nodes are the categories above. RDF
syntaxes, GRDDL for microformats, RDFa, Adobe XMP, ebook metadata,
Dublin Core etc are often links between classic document forms and RDF
quads. Sometimes RDF quads are more to summarise what the document
says about the world; other times they are to help find it. Similarly,
provenance, authorship and other people-describing RDF, also
people-describing non-RDF information, can all help us to find whose
*head* might have the right information. A YouTube video can capture
something of a person's subjective knowledge of the world and put it
out there in document form for others to find; tags and RDF stuff can
help others find that video and either learn directly or get in touch.
SemWeb people (all of us) can easily focus only on one of these forms
of information, at the expense not only of the other two, but their
rich interconnections. Machine-unfriendly video, images, audio or .xls
files can still be very useful, and the 'RDF as metadata about files'
use case is one we too easily neglect.

> Did you take into consideration that I live on this side of the Garfagnana valley?

In this case I think the answer is best found in the heads of your
neighbours, rather than on the Web. How's your Italian coming along?

cheers,

Dan

K. Krasnow Waterman | 18 Apr 16:29 2010
Picon

RE: call to arms - planting tomatoes

Perhaps I'm too literal, but when I think about linked data, I think about
linking existing data (rather than having it created in response to a
request, as social networking would require), and mostly about collapsing
lots of searches into one.  

So, assuming Danny's request doesn't literally mean "my" tomatoes (as in,
guess which varietal and what state they're in now), here are the searches
I'd expect to do today and the results I'd hope linked data could bring me.

1) Find a tomato grow zone map or database (see, e.g.,
http://www.tomatofest.com/tomato-growing-zone-map.html) 

2) Find my location on that map and fetch my zone number

3) Find out the names of tomatoes that grow in my zone number

4) Get basic adjectives about those varieties (e.g., sweet, thin-skinned,
drought-resistant)

5)a) Find the "planting season" for each variety for my zone number
OR
5)b)i) Find out how long it takes for each variety to grow from seedling to
fruit-bearing
AND
5)b)ii) Find out how long it takes for each variety to grow from seed to
seedling (this info tends to be provided in different places from #4)

6) "Rinse and repeat".  Grow zone maps have variation (by seed vendor and
gardening expert), so I'd typically look at a few and work out a blended
average sort of understanding.

7) Build a little table that puts this together (which would be so much
better than the notes I scratch on the back of an envelope while I'm
reading)

Today this would probably take me 2+ hours of searching.

I understand that there's no magic to producing this as a linked data query
(no NLP that's going to produce my query so clearly and no algorithm that's
going to implement it so perfectly), but I think building out more of these
as demonstrations lets the business and government communities see the
efficiency, effectiveness, and user wow factor.  If Burpee can help
prospective gardeners reduce the time to understanding from hours to
moments, won't they expect significantly more "conversions" from hits and
reap the "first mover advantage"?  That's what provides the incentive for
bigger players to publish more data, build more linked queries, and spend
resources on the bigger picture -- my answer for an early question in the
thread of last few days about how to get more engagement.  

Thanks, -k

-----Original Message-----
From: semantic-web-request <at> w3.org [mailto:semantic-web-request <at> w3.org] On
Behalf Of Dan Brickley
Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 9:17 AM
To: Danny Ayers
Cc: Semantic Web
Subject: Re: call to arms

On Sun, Apr 18, 2010 at 1:11 PM, Danny Ayers <danny.ayers <at> gmail.com> wrote:
> On 18 April 2010 12:54, Michael Schneider <schneid <at> fzi.de> wrote:
>> Danny Ayers wrote:
>>
>>>when do I plant my tomatoes?
>>
>> We are in early Spring now. Tomatoes don't grow well in this period. At
>> least not in the outside. Well, you can find them in the greenhouse, but
>> that's probably not what you are looking for. So, I'm afraid, you have to
be
>> patient.
>
> Thank you Michael, but I wish to make you redundant. This box of
> circuits in front of me should have told me that.
>
> Did you take into consideration that I live on this side of the
> Garfagnana valley?

When I think about linked information these days, I see three major
flavours:

* information in classic document form (analog stuff made of bits;
human-oriented prose, video, imagery)
* information in source-attributed RDF claims (aka Linked Data, quads, etc)
* information in people's heads

For me, the RDFWeb/FOAF story I think has always been about the 3-way
relationship between these different equally important ways of
learning about the world. Linked people *and* linked information.

You can think of lots of aspects of SemWeb as positioned as edges of
this simple triangle where the nodes are the categories above. RDF
syntaxes, GRDDL for microformats, RDFa, Adobe XMP, ebook metadata,
Dublin Core etc are often links between classic document forms and RDF
quads. Sometimes RDF quads are more to summarise what the document
says about the world; other times they are to help find it. Similarly,
provenance, authorship and other people-describing RDF, also
people-describing non-RDF information, can all help us to find whose
*head* might have the right information. A YouTube video can capture
something of a person's subjective knowledge of the world and put it
out there in document form for others to find; tags and RDF stuff can
help others find that video and either learn directly or get in touch.
SemWeb people (all of us) can easily focus only on one of these forms
of information, at the expense not only of the other two, but their
rich interconnections. Machine-unfriendly video, images, audio or .xls
files can still be very useful, and the 'RDF as metadata about files'
use case is one we too easily neglect.

> Did you take into consideration that I live on this side of the Garfagnana
valley?

In this case I think the answer is best found in the heads of your
neighbours, rather than on the Web. How's your Italian coming along?

cheers,

Dan

adasal | 18 Apr 16:59 2010
Picon

Re: call to arms - planting tomatoes

Utility value:-
Actually I was on a walk the end of last year with someone who had been the editor for agricultural affairs on BBC World Service. I hope I have the correct title. This was cut as the BBC thought that agricultural news was covered in current affairs programs if it was significant enough.
He pointed out to me that agricultural news is not current affairs. What happened in the agricultural programs was that if, say, a seed supplier introduced a new seed then the use and benefits of this could be discussed by having a few people from different regions on air.
I have to say at this point I cannot see any semantic web alternative to this for the obvious reason that the radio is accessible, the internet is not.
Moreover, such a regional representative discussion (they would be experts in local conditions) cannot easily be replicated either.
That said, I'm sure the semantic web will have some contribution to make in this area?

Adam

On 18 April 2010 15:29, K. Krasnow Waterman <kkw <at> mit.edu> wrote:
Perhaps I'm too literal, but when I think about linked data, I think about
linking existing data (rather than having it created in response to a
request, as social networking would require), and mostly about collapsing
lots of searches into one.

So, assuming Danny's request doesn't literally mean "my" tomatoes (as in,
guess which varietal and what state they're in now), here are the searches
I'd expect to do today and the results I'd hope linked data could bring me.


1) Find a tomato grow zone map or database (see, e.g.,
http://www.tomatofest.com/tomato-growing-zone-map.html)

2) Find my location on that map and fetch my zone number

3) Find out the names of tomatoes that grow in my zone number

4) Get basic adjectives about those varieties (e.g., sweet, thin-skinned,
drought-resistant)

5)a) Find the "planting season" for each variety for my zone number
OR
5)b)i) Find out how long it takes for each variety to grow from seedling to
fruit-bearing
AND
5)b)ii) Find out how long it takes for each variety to grow from seed to
seedling (this info tends to be provided in different places from #4)

6) "Rinse and repeat".  Grow zone maps have variation (by seed vendor and
gardening expert), so I'd typically look at a few and work out a blended
average sort of understanding.

7) Build a little table that puts this together (which would be so much
better than the notes I scratch on the back of an envelope while I'm
reading)

Today this would probably take me 2+ hours of searching.

I understand that there's no magic to producing this as a linked data query
(no NLP that's going to produce my query so clearly and no algorithm that's
going to implement it so perfectly), but I think building out more of these
as demonstrations lets the business and government communities see the
efficiency, effectiveness, and user wow factor.  If Burpee can help
prospective gardeners reduce the time to understanding from hours to
moments, won't they expect significantly more "conversions" from hits and
reap the "first mover advantage"?  That's what provides the incentive for
bigger players to publish more data, build more linked queries, and spend
resources on the bigger picture -- my answer for an early question in the
thread of last few days about how to get more engagement.

Thanks, -k



-----Original Message-----
From: semantic-web-request <at> w3.org [mailto:semantic-web-request <at> w3.org] On
Behalf Of Dan Brickley
Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 9:17 AM
To: Danny Ayers
Cc: Semantic Web
Subject: Re: call to arms

On Sun, Apr 18, 2010 at 1:11 PM, Danny Ayers <danny.ayers <at> gmail.com> wrote:
> On 18 April 2010 12:54, Michael Schneider <schneid <at> fzi.de> wrote:
>> Danny Ayers wrote:
>>
>>>when do I plant my tomatoes?
>>
>> We are in early Spring now. Tomatoes don't grow well in this period. At
>> least not in the outside. Well, you can find them in the greenhouse, but
>> that's probably not what you are looking for. So, I'm afraid, you have to
be
>> patient.
>
> Thank you Michael, but I wish to make you redundant. This box of
> circuits in front of me should have told me that.
>
> Did you take into consideration that I live on this side of the
> Garfagnana valley?

When I think about linked information these days, I see three major
flavours:

* information in classic document form (analog stuff made of bits;
human-oriented prose, video, imagery)
* information in source-attributed RDF claims (aka Linked Data, quads, etc)
* information in people's heads

For me, the RDFWeb/FOAF story I think has always been about the 3-way
relationship between these different equally important ways of
learning about the world. Linked people *and* linked information.

You can think of lots of aspects of SemWeb as positioned as edges of
this simple triangle where the nodes are the categories above. RDF
syntaxes, GRDDL for microformats, RDFa, Adobe XMP, ebook metadata,
Dublin Core etc are often links between classic document forms and RDF
quads. Sometimes RDF quads are more to summarise what the document
says about the world; other times they are to help find it. Similarly,
provenance, authorship and other people-describing RDF, also
people-describing non-RDF information, can all help us to find whose
*head* might have the right information. A YouTube video can capture
something of a person's subjective knowledge of the world and put it
out there in document form for others to find; tags and RDF stuff can
help others find that video and either learn directly or get in touch.
SemWeb people (all of us) can easily focus only on one of these forms
of information, at the expense not only of the other two, but their
rich interconnections. Machine-unfriendly video, images, audio or .xls
files can still be very useful, and the 'RDF as metadata about files'
use case is one we too easily neglect.

> Did you take into consideration that I live on this side of the Garfagnana
valley?

In this case I think the answer is best found in the heads of your
neighbours, rather than on the Web. How's your Italian coming along?

cheers,

Dan





K. Krasnow Waterman | 18 Apr 17:50 2010
Picon

RE: call to arms - planting tomatoes

Glass half empty or half full?  I look at the massive amounts of data that people have and use s-l-o-w-l-y and say "how can we do it faster or more effectively?"  In the world of things, nearly every industry has a significant base of granular facts and standards -  rug makers have knots per inch and dye sources; pottery makers have types of clay, glazes, firing temperatures; seed vendors have types of plants and soil, grow zones, etc.  Or, as recently came up in my life, how many linear shelf feet (rather than box cu feet) are there in competing refrigerators of the same general dimensions.  That's a world of opportunity to reduce the amount of time folks spend drowning in data at home or work and a world of commercial opportunity presumably more than sufficient to win hearts, minds, and dollars.  But, just as the vast majority of the population cannot look at an apartment with black walls and visualize what it will look like with white walls, nor can they look at "Grace is the mother of Anne" and intuit what that means for government or industry.  I'm also optimistic in believing that lots more resources and instances will provide the fodder needed to solve the next harder problems (e.g., somehow including personal opinions of the regional representative you describe).

 

I guess this really comes down to two different questions: 1) how to get more folks engaged in linked data as we know it now? 2) how the visionaries, as you all are, should envision extending the boundaries of that capability?

 

-k

 

 

From: semantic-web-request <at> w3.org [mailto:semantic-web-request <at> w3.org] On Behalf Of adasal
Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 11:00 AM
To: K. Krasnow Waterman
Cc: Dan Brickley; Danny Ayers; Semantic Web
Subject: Re: call to arms - planting tomatoes

 

Utility value:-
Actually I was on a walk the end of last year with someone who had been the editor for agricultural affairs on BBC World Service. I hope I have the correct title. This was cut as the BBC thought that agricultural news was covered in current affairs programs if it was significant enough.
He pointed out to me that agricultural news is not current affairs. What happened in the agricultural programs was that if, say, a seed supplier introduced a new seed then the use and benefits of this could be discussed by having a few people from different regions on air.
I have to say at this point I cannot see any semantic web alternative to this for the obvious reason that the radio is accessible, the internet is not.
Moreover, such a regional representative discussion (they would be experts in local conditions) cannot easily be replicated either.
That said, I'm sure the semantic web will have some contribution to make in this area?

Adam

On 18 April 2010 15:29, K. Krasnow Waterman <kkw <at> mit.edu> wrote:

Perhaps I'm too literal, but when I think about linked data, I think about
linking existing data (rather than having it created in response to a
request, as social networking would require), and mostly about collapsing
lots of searches into one.

So, assuming Danny's request doesn't literally mean "my" tomatoes (as in,
guess which varietal and what state they're in now), here are the searches
I'd expect to do today and the results I'd hope linked data could bring me.


1) Find a tomato grow zone map or database (see, e.g.,
http://www.tomatofest.com/tomato-growing-zone-map.html)

2) Find my location on that map and fetch my zone number

3) Find out the names of tomatoes that grow in my zone number

4) Get basic adjectives about those varieties (e.g., sweet, thin-skinned,
drought-resistant)

5)a) Find the "planting season" for each variety for my zone number
OR
5)b)i) Find out how long it takes for each variety to grow from seedling to
fruit-bearing
AND
5)b)ii) Find out how long it takes for each variety to grow from seed to
seedling (this info tends to be provided in different places from #4)

6) "Rinse and repeat".  Grow zone maps have variation (by seed vendor and
gardening expert), so I'd typically look at a few and work out a blended
average sort of understanding.

7) Build a little table that puts this together (which would be so much
better than the notes I scratch on the back of an envelope while I'm
reading)

Today this would probably take me 2+ hours of searching.

I understand that there's no magic to producing this as a linked data query
(no NLP that's going to produce my query so clearly and no algorithm that's
going to implement it so perfectly), but I think building out more of these
as demonstrations lets the business and government communities see the
efficiency, effectiveness, and user wow factor.  If Burpee can help
prospective gardeners reduce the time to understanding from hours to
moments, won't they expect significantly more "conversions" from hits and
reap the "first mover advantage"?  That's what provides the incentive for
bigger players to publish more data, build more linked queries, and spend
resources on the bigger picture -- my answer for an early question in the
thread of last few days about how to get more engagement.

Thanks, -k



-----Original Message-----
From: semantic-web-request <at> w3.org [mailto:semantic-web-request <at> w3.org] On
Behalf Of Dan Brickley
Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 9:17 AM
To: Danny Ayers
Cc: Semantic Web
Subject: Re: call to arms

On Sun, Apr 18, 2010 at 1:11 PM, Danny Ayers <danny.ayers <at> gmail.com> wrote:
> On 18 April 2010 12:54, Michael Schneider <schneid <at> fzi.de> wrote:
>> Danny Ayers wrote:
>>
>>>when do I plant my tomatoes?
>>
>> We are in early Spring now. Tomatoes don't grow well in this period. At
>> least not in the outside. Well, you can find them in the greenhouse, but
>> that's probably not what you are looking for. So, I'm afraid, you have to
be
>> patient.
>
> Thank you Michael, but I wish to make you redundant. This box of
> circuits in front of me should have told me that.
>
> Did you take into consideration that I live on this side of the
> Garfagnana valley?

When I think about linked information these days, I see three major
flavours:

* information in classic document form (analog stuff made of bits;
human-oriented prose, video, imagery)
* information in source-attributed RDF claims (aka Linked Data, quads, etc)
* information in people's heads

For me, the RDFWeb/FOAF story I think has always been about the 3-way
relationship between these different equally important ways of
learning about the world. Linked people *and* linked information.

You can think of lots of aspects of SemWeb as positioned as edges of
this simple triangle where the nodes are the categories above. RDF
syntaxes, GRDDL for microformats, RDFa, Adobe XMP, ebook metadata,
Dublin Core etc are often links between classic document forms and RDF
quads. Sometimes RDF quads are more to summarise what the document
says about the world; other times they are to help find it. Similarly,
provenance, authorship and other people-describing RDF, also
people-describing non-RDF information, can all help us to find whose
*head* might have the right information. A YouTube video can capture
something of a person's subjective knowledge of the world and put it
out there in document form for others to find; tags and RDF stuff can
help others find that video and either learn directly or get in touch.
SemWeb people (all of us) can easily focus only on one of these forms
of information, at the expense not only of the other two, but their
rich interconnections. Machine-unfriendly video, images, audio or ..xls
files can still be very useful, and the 'RDF as metadata about files'
use case is one we too easily neglect.

> Did you take into consideration that I live on this side of the Garfagnana
valley?

In this case I think the answer is best found in the heads of your
neighbours, rather than on the Web. How's your Italian coming along?

cheers,

Dan



 

adasal | 18 Apr 21:31 2010
Picon

Re: call to arms - planting tomatoes

Yes, I'm generally optimistic. It is just that the example brought to mind this adjunct very difficult problem. It is good to have such things play on one's mind.

Adam

On 18 April 2010 16:50, K. Krasnow Waterman <kkw <at> mit.edu> wrote:

Glass half empty or half full?  I look at the massive amounts of data that people have and use s-l-o-w-l-y and say "how can we do it faster or more effectively?"  In the world of things, nearly every industry has a significant base of granular facts and standards -  rug makers have knots per inch and dye sources; pottery makers have types of clay, glazes, firing temperatures; seed vendors have types of plants and soil, grow zones, etc.  Or, as recently came up in my life, how many linear shelf feet (rather than box cu feet) are there in competing refrigerators of the same general dimensions.  That's a world of opportunity to reduce the amount of time folks spend drowning in data at home or work and a world of commercial opportunity presumably more than sufficient to win hearts, minds, and dollars.  But, just as the vast majority of the population cannot look at an apartment with black walls and visualize what it will look like with white walls, nor can they look at "Grace is the mother of Anne" and intuit what that means for government or industry.  I'm also optimistic in believing that lots more resources and instances will provide the fodder needed to solve the next harder problems (e.g., somehow including personal opinions of the regional representative you describe).

 

I guess this really comes down to two different questions: 1) how to get more folks engaged in linked data as we know it now? 2) how the visionaries, as you all are, should envision extending the boundaries of that capability?

 

-k

 

 

From: semantic-web-request <at> w3.org [mailto:semantic-web-request <at> w3.org] On Behalf Of adasal
Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 11:00 AM
To: K. Krasnow Waterman
Cc: Dan Brickley; Danny Ayers; Semantic Web
Subject: Re: call to arms - planting tomatoes

 

Utility value:-
Actually I was on a walk the end of last year with someone who had been the editor for agricultural affairs on BBC World Service. I hope I have the correct title. This was cut as the BBC thought that agricultural news was covered in current affairs programs if it was significant enough.
He pointed out to me that agricultural news is not current affairs. What happened in the agricultural programs was that if, say, a seed supplier introduced a new seed then the use and benefits of this could be discussed by having a few people from different regions on air.
I have to say at this point I cannot see any semantic web alternative to this for the obvious reason that the radio is accessible, the internet is not.
Moreover, such a regional representative discussion (they would be experts in local conditions) cannot easily be replicated either.
That said, I'm sure the semantic web will have some contribution to make in this area?

Adam

On 18 April 2010 15:29, K. Krasnow Waterman <kkw <at> mit.edu> wrote:

Perhaps I'm too literal, but when I think about linked data, I think about
linking existing data (rather than having it created in response to a
request, as social networking would require), and mostly about collapsing
lots of searches into one.

So, assuming Danny's request doesn't literally mean "my" tomatoes (as in,
guess which varietal and what state they're in now), here are the searches
I'd expect to do today and the results I'd hope linked data could bring me.


1) Find a tomato grow zone map or database (see, e.g.,
http://www.tomatofest.com/tomato-growing-zone-map.html)

2) Find my location on that map and fetch my zone number

3) Find out the names of tomatoes that grow in my zone number

4) Get basic adjectives about those varieties (e.g., sweet, thin-skinned,
drought-resistant)

5)a) Find the "planting season" for each variety for my zone number
OR
5)b)i) Find out how long it takes for each variety to grow from seedling to
fruit-bearing
AND
5)b)ii) Find out how long it takes for each variety to grow from seed to
seedling (this info tends to be provided in different places from #4)

6) "Rinse and repeat".  Grow zone maps have variation (by seed vendor and
gardening expert), so I'd typically look at a few and work out a blended
average sort of understanding.

7) Build a little table that puts this together (which would be so much
better than the notes I scratch on the back of an envelope while I'm
reading)

Today this would probably take me 2+ hours of searching.

I understand that there's no magic to producing this as a linked data query
(no NLP that's going to produce my query so clearly and no algorithm that's
going to implement it so perfectly), but I think building out more of these
as demonstrations lets the business and government communities see the
efficiency, effectiveness, and user wow factor.  If Burpee can help
prospective gardeners reduce the time to understanding from hours to
moments, won't they expect significantly more "conversions" from hits and
reap the "first mover advantage"?  That's what provides the incentive for
bigger players to publish more data, build more linked queries, and spend
resources on the bigger picture -- my answer for an early question in the
thread of last few days about how to get more engagement.

Thanks, -k



-----Original Message-----
From: semantic-web-request <at> w3.org [mailto:semantic-web-request <at> w3.org] On
Behalf Of Dan Brickley
Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 9:17 AM
To: Danny Ayers
Cc: Semantic Web
Subject: Re: call to arms

On Sun, Apr 18, 2010 at 1:11 PM, Danny Ayers <danny.ayers <at> gmail.com> wrote:
> On 18 April 2010 12:54, Michael Schneider <schneid <at> fzi.de> wrote:
>> Danny Ayers wrote:
>>
>>>when do I plant my tomatoes?
>>
>> We are in early Spring now. Tomatoes don't grow well in this period. At
>> least not in the outside. Well, you can find them in the greenhouse, but
>> that's probably not what you are looking for. So, I'm afraid, you have to
be
>> patient.
>
> Thank you Michael, but I wish to make you redundant. This box of
> circuits in front of me should have told me that.
>
> Did you take into consideration that I live on this side of the
> Garfagnana valley?

When I think about linked information these days, I see three major
flavours:

* information in classic document form (analog stuff made of bits;
human-oriented prose, video, imagery)
* information in source-attributed RDF claims (aka Linked Data, quads, etc)
* information in people's heads

For me, the RDFWeb/FOAF story I think has always been about the 3-way
relationship between these different equally important ways of
learning about the world. Linked people *and* linked information.

You can think of lots of aspects of SemWeb as positioned as edges of
this simple triangle where the nodes are the categories above. RDF
syntaxes, GRDDL for microformats, RDFa, Adobe XMP, ebook metadata,
Dublin Core etc are often links between classic document forms and RDF
quads. Sometimes RDF quads are more to summarise what the document
says about the world; other times they are to help find it. Similarly,
provenance, authorship and other people-describing RDF, also
people-describing non-RDF information, can all help us to find whose
*head* might have the right information. A YouTube video can capture
something of a person's subjective knowledge of the world and put it
out there in document form for others to find; tags and RDF stuff can
help others find that video and either learn directly or get in touch.
SemWeb people (all of us) can easily focus only on one of these forms
of information, at the expense not only of the other two, but their
rich interconnections. Machine-unfriendly video, images, audio or .xls
files can still be very useful, and the 'RDF as metadata about files'
use case is one we too easily neglect.

> Did you take into consideration that I live on this side of the Garfagnana
valley?

In this case I think the answer is best found in the heads of your
neighbours, rather than on the Web. How's your Italian coming along?

cheers,

Dan



 


Danny Ayers | 18 Apr 23:07 2010
Picon

Re: call to arms - planting tomatoes

Perfect, you know how to find such things out - Connolly's bane again.
This machine should be able to tell me those things.

On 18 April 2010 16:29, K. Krasnow Waterman <kkw <at> mit.edu> wrote:
> Perhaps I'm too literal, but when I think about linked data, I think about
> linking existing data (rather than having it created in response to a
> request, as social networking would require), and mostly about collapsing
> lots of searches into one.
>
> So, assuming Danny's request doesn't literally mean "my" tomatoes (as in,
> guess which varietal and what state they're in now), here are the searches
> I'd expect to do today and the results I'd hope linked data could bring me.
>
>
> 1) Find a tomato grow zone map or database (see, e.g.,
> http://www.tomatofest.com/tomato-growing-zone-map.html)
>
> 2) Find my location on that map and fetch my zone number
>
> 3) Find out the names of tomatoes that grow in my zone number
>
> 4) Get basic adjectives about those varieties (e.g., sweet, thin-skinned,
> drought-resistant)
>
> 5)a) Find the "planting season" for each variety for my zone number
> OR
> 5)b)i) Find out how long it takes for each variety to grow from seedling to
> fruit-bearing
> AND
> 5)b)ii) Find out how long it takes for each variety to grow from seed to
> seedling (this info tends to be provided in different places from #4)
>
> 6) "Rinse and repeat".  Grow zone maps have variation (by seed vendor and
> gardening expert), so I'd typically look at a few and work out a blended
> average sort of understanding.
>
> 7) Build a little table that puts this together (which would be so much
> better than the notes I scratch on the back of an envelope while I'm
> reading)
>
> Today this would probably take me 2+ hours of searching.
>
> I understand that there's no magic to producing this as a linked data query
> (no NLP that's going to produce my query so clearly and no algorithm that's
> going to implement it so perfectly), but I think building out more of these
> as demonstrations lets the business and government communities see the
> efficiency, effectiveness, and user wow factor.  If Burpee can help
> prospective gardeners reduce the time to understanding from hours to
> moments, won't they expect significantly more "conversions" from hits and
> reap the "first mover advantage"?  That's what provides the incentive for
> bigger players to publish more data, build more linked queries, and spend
> resources on the bigger picture -- my answer for an early question in the
> thread of last few days about how to get more engagement.
>
> Thanks, -k
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: semantic-web-request <at> w3.org [mailto:semantic-web-request <at> w3.org] On
> Behalf Of Dan Brickley
> Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 9:17 AM
> To: Danny Ayers
> Cc: Semantic Web
> Subject: Re: call to arms
>
> On Sun, Apr 18, 2010 at 1:11 PM, Danny Ayers <danny.ayers <at> gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 18 April 2010 12:54, Michael Schneider <schneid <at> fzi.de> wrote:
>>> Danny Ayers wrote:
>>>
>>>>when do I plant my tomatoes?
>>>
>>> We are in early Spring now. Tomatoes don't grow well in this period. At
>>> least not in the outside. Well, you can find them in the greenhouse, but
>>> that's probably not what you are looking for. So, I'm afraid, you have to
> be
>>> patient.
>>
>> Thank you Michael, but I wish to make you redundant. This box of
>> circuits in front of me should have told me that.
>>
>> Did you take into consideration that I live on this side of the
>> Garfagnana valley?
>
> When I think about linked information these days, I see three major
> flavours:
>
> * information in classic document form (analog stuff made of bits;
> human-oriented prose, video, imagery)
> * information in source-attributed RDF claims (aka Linked Data, quads, etc)
> * information in people's heads
>
> For me, the RDFWeb/FOAF story I think has always been about the 3-way
> relationship between these different equally important ways of
> learning about the world. Linked people *and* linked information.
>
> You can think of lots of aspects of SemWeb as positioned as edges of
> this simple triangle where the nodes are the categories above. RDF
> syntaxes, GRDDL for microformats, RDFa, Adobe XMP, ebook metadata,
> Dublin Core etc are often links between classic document forms and RDF
> quads. Sometimes RDF quads are more to summarise what the document
> says about the world; other times they are to help find it. Similarly,
> provenance, authorship and other people-describing RDF, also
> people-describing non-RDF information, can all help us to find whose
> *head* might have the right information. A YouTube video can capture
> something of a person's subjective knowledge of the world and put it
> out there in document form for others to find; tags and RDF stuff can
> help others find that video and either learn directly or get in touch.
> SemWeb people (all of us) can easily focus only on one of these forms
> of information, at the expense not only of the other two, but their
> rich interconnections. Machine-unfriendly video, images, audio or .xls
> files can still be very useful, and the 'RDF as metadata about files'
> use case is one we too easily neglect.
>
>> Did you take into consideration that I live on this side of the Garfagnana
> valley?
>
> In this case I think the answer is best found in the heads of your
> neighbours, rather than on the Web. How's your Italian coming along?
>
> cheers,
>
> Dan
>
>
>

--

-- 
http://danny.ayers.name

adasal | 18 Apr 16:43 2010
Picon

Re: call to arms

The original question was why has not adoption been broader at this point, asked in different forms. What are the barriers?
There is no one answer. The answer is not solely in the way the technologies are presented either by people or approached through tools or any other possibility including the nature of the data.
Nor is the answer in what I am going to bring to your attention.
If we look at the adoption of foaf we can see how things can be rapidly adopted.
But when I suggested exploring semantic technologies at Serco PLC as a solution to some of their problems in surfacing information for businesslink (on behalf of the UK government and HMRC) this was point blank refused.
It is reasonable to consider why this might be.
Defending their own position from a threat, cost, other factors?
Thinking about cost, is the cost of introducing foaf so much less than a more comprehensive semantic solution?
Immediately the question is asked and I realise that I am not in possession of any cost benefit analysis for reference. I don't think they exist yet.
Looking at the adoption of foaf I realise that probably in the case of its adoption cost benefit analysis was not necessary, since the costs were very low.
One of the reasons for the disjoint between research and business implementation is that academic research is set up to produce papers that present results, but not field implementations. Of course not.
Field implementations are expensive.
I have suggested that one reason for enthusiasm for a public semantic web is to defend by example against data corruption for gain.
But another maybe that there is a lock in to this vision because other possibilities are inaccessible?
Media companies such as the BBC and its rivals on one scale and google, on another, are grappling with difficult problems such as semantic markup of video. Niggling away at these problems solutions emerge and other web sites, businesslink perhaps, will fall into line.
This happens at the point that not taking up the technology is more expensive than its adoption.
With businesslink I expect it will be mark up of assets, where they are stronger, rather than an approach to underlying core technology, where they are week. (Although this begs the question of how they would support it, but still ... )
Semantic technology is really too vast a subject area, just think of the chasm between the semantics as information architecture and semantics in a core application that I have just alluded to.

It is also incredibly interesting.
There are so many unanswered questions in my mind.
For instance, on the subject of the soundness of data, thinking in terms of a semantic application invites the production of different data than that traditionally stored, data about the application itself.
We do not know to what extent a traditional core application could be converted into a semantic engine.
What data might it produce to feed its own functioning?
What overlap is there here between site usage statistics and other aspects of the application?
What would be left out from the traditional design patterns, and what new design patterns would be used?
Can a semantic application be developed that would have semantics as a first class design pattern just as MVC is now? I am not at all sure what such an application looks like architecturally.
On the level of code, I want an annotations framework that allows me to drop in semantic descriptions which work like aspects, (actually that are aspects, but not necessarily using aspectj, how about run time aspects? Or traits in Scala?) because I think that the relationship between a semantic class and its properties is as that between an object and object aspects, those properties imply behaviours that aspects on an object would express.
Or should I rely on a script to tie things together, which is another approach?

Many issues ...

Adam




On 18 April 2010 14:17, Dan Brickley <danbri <at> danbri.org> wrote:
On Sun, Apr 18, 2010 at 1:11 PM, Danny Ayers <danny.ayers <at> gmail.com> wrote:
> On 18 April 2010 12:54, Michael Schneider <schneid <at> fzi.de> wrote:
>> Danny Ayers wrote:
>>
>>>when do I plant my tomatoes?
>>
>> We are in early Spring now. Tomatoes don't grow well in this period. At
>> least not in the outside. Well, you can find them in the greenhouse, but
>> that's probably not what you are looking for. So, I'm afraid, you have to be
>> patient.
>
> Thank you Michael, but I wish to make you redundant. This box of
> circuits in front of me should have told me that.
>
> Did you take into consideration that I live on this side of the
> Garfagnana valley?

When I think about linked information these days, I see three major flavours:

* information in classic document form (analog stuff made of bits;
human-oriented prose, video, imagery)
* information in source-attributed RDF claims (aka Linked Data, quads, etc)
* information in people's heads

For me, the RDFWeb/FOAF story I think has always been about the 3-way
relationship between these different equally important ways of
learning about the world. Linked people *and* linked information.

You can think of lots of aspects of SemWeb as positioned as edges of
this simple triangle where the nodes are the categories above. RDF
syntaxes, GRDDL for microformats, RDFa, Adobe XMP, ebook metadata,
Dublin Core etc are often links between classic document forms and RDF
quads. Sometimes RDF quads are more to summarise what the document
says about the world; other times they are to help find it. Similarly,
provenance, authorship and other people-describing RDF, also
people-describing non-RDF information, can all help us to find whose
*head* might have the right information. A YouTube video can capture
something of a person's subjective knowledge of the world and put it
out there in document form for others to find; tags and RDF stuff can
help others find that video and either learn directly or get in touch.
SemWeb people (all of us) can easily focus only on one of these forms
of information, at the expense not only of the other two, but their
rich interconnections. Machine-unfriendly video, images, audio or .xls
files can still be very useful, and the 'RDF as metadata about files'
use case is one we too easily neglect.

> Did you take into consideration that I live on this side of the Garfagnana valley?

In this case I think the answer is best found in the heads of your
neighbours, rather than on the Web. How's your Italian coming along?

cheers,

Dan


Danny Ayers | 18 Apr 22:16 2010
Picon

Re: call to arms

On 18 April 2010 15:17, Dan Brickley <danbri <at> danbri.org> wrote:

> In this case I think the answer is best found in the heads of your
> neighbours, rather than on the Web. How's your Italian coming along?

Like the Web, piano piano

--

-- 
http://danny.ayers.name

Richard Light | 19 Apr 11:38 2010
Picon
Picon

Re: call to arms

In message 
<q2reb19f3361004180617g1dbfdd67i358df9881b9e9b98 <at> mail.gmail.com>, Dan 
Brickley <danbri <at> danbri.org> writes
>
>When I think about linked information these days, I see three major flavours:
>
>* information in classic document form (analog stuff made of bits;
>human-oriented prose, video, imagery)
>* information in source-attributed RDF claims (aka Linked Data, quads, etc)
>* information in people's heads

I suggest that there is an important breakdown within the "classic 
document form" flavour, into machine-processible (e.g. XHTML, 
application-specific XML) and machine-opaque (HTML, images, video).

>For me, the RDFWeb/FOAF story I think has always been about the 3-way
>relationship between these different equally important ways of
>learning about the world. Linked people *and* linked information.
>
>You can think of lots of aspects of SemWeb as positioned as edges of
>this simple triangle where the nodes are the categories above. RDF
>syntaxes, GRDDL for microformats, RDFa, Adobe XMP, ebook metadata,
>Dublin Core etc are often links between classic document forms and RDF
>quads. Sometimes RDF quads are more to summarise what the document
>says about the world; other times they are to help find it. Similarly,
>provenance, authorship and other people-describing RDF, also
>people-describing non-RDF information, can all help us to find whose
>*head* might have the right information. A YouTube video can capture
>something of a person's subjective knowledge of the world and put it
>out there in document form for others to find; tags and RDF stuff can
>help others find that video and either learn directly or get in touch.
>SemWeb people (all of us) can easily focus only on one of these forms
>of information, at the expense not only of the other two, but their
>rich interconnections. Machine-unfriendly video, images, audio or .xls
>files can still be very useful, and the 'RDF as metadata about files'
>use case is one we too easily neglect.

All true and useful, but once your machine lookup has resolved to a 
"document form", it can do further processing on a processible resource, 
e.g. to check its relevance, or extract a summary from it to incorporate 
within a larger response.  All it can do with an opaque source is lob it 
back to the human reader "as found", for them to make of what they will.

Richard
--

-- 
Richard Light

henry.story | 29 Mar 23:33 2010
Picon

Re: call to arms

May I suggest a very simple solution.
To get the web to be part of every body's life, the key step is to touch people directly. The best way to touch
people is by helping them tie up with other people, ie social networking. People are interested in
people.People are interested in belonging to social groups, where they can gain advantages by joining.
If one has a system whereby one gains advantages by joining, and this advantage can be extended to other
people, then one has a viral system. We want people not only to join semantic social networks but for them to
perceive the advantage in getting others to join. If those advantages are clear enough, the technology
simple enough, then we will gain more and more supporters, who will in turn convert others.
For this the key technology is foaf+ssl. It is reasonably simple to implement too. Take any web site with
public profiles, foaf enable it, add a generate WebId 
button, and then allow people to login to that site using foaf+ssl. Make this cr
oss organisational, so that someone who has one WebId can immediately and in one click gain access to
another web site. Then make it possible to have simple acc
ess control rules such as allowing friends of friends access to some resources. 
If you do this you will have a viral system.

An example of how easy the user interface should be is 

http://webid.myxwiki.org/

This was a simple Web 2.0 application that can now generate WebId certificates. 
We still need to make it possible to login to that service using foaf+ssl, and t
hat will be my next task. 

This can be a student summer project. They will learn a lot, it will be useful, 
and it will grow our knowledge, and our community.

    Henry

Social Web Architect
http://bblfish.net/

On 29 Mar 2010, at 21:39, Danny Ayers wrote:
> Right now, despite the promise, things seem mired in the mud. People
> aren't seeing the things that the Web of Data has proposed.
> 
> How do we get over this?
>
> Face to face maybe - the bits the interwebs can't provide.
>
> I suggest the leading lights of this sturm sit down in a room
> somewhere in northern Europe, and hammer the damn thing down. It is so
> stupid for it to take so long.
>
> The Internet, and the Web is excellent at providing miraculous stuff,
> but the humans that tie the things together seem to be disappearing
> into different worlds.
> 
> The Semantic Web should be useful by now, by anyone's predictions.
>
>
> something better change
>
> (I'm a scaredy pacifist, so don't take that to heart)
>
> --
> http://danny.ayers.name

Melvin Carvalho | 29 Mar 23:38 2010
Picon

Re: call to arms



2010/3/29 Danny Ayers <danny.ayers <at> gmail.com>
Right now, despite the promise, things seem mired in the mud. People
aren't seeing the things that the Web of Data has proposed.

How do we get over this?

Face to face maybe - the bits the interwebs can't provide.

I suggest the leading lights of this sturm sit down in a room
somewhere in northern Europe, and hammer the damn thing down. It is so
stupid for it to take so long.

The Internet, and the Web is excellent at providing miraculous stuff,
but the humans that tie the things together seem to be disappearing
into different worlds.

The Semantic Web should be useful by now, by anyone's predictions.

The Semantic Web IS useful, at least I find it so.

For years and years I looked for a way to login to a website without me having to run a server or have lots of passwords, my search lead me to FOAF+SSL, I now run half a dozen little websites, each part of my linked data footprint, and use my certificate to login.  I can also log in to any openid site with my own FOAF certificate.  Before apple broke it, I was able to log into my sites using an ipod touch with one press, which I dont think anyone has done before. 

For a long time I wanted to create a task list and notifications system.  I now use sparql update to upload my tasks to my own personal data wiki (I sometimes use webdav), use roqet and sparql to get some values back, process them a bit (one day I'll learn RIF or N3 rules), and then it hooks into my kalarm clock and notifies me when I have to do stuff. 

My tasks are stored in my personal 'nano' blog which scores me an integer between 0-255 for the various things I do during the day.  I can track how productive I've been on a given day, week or month, and compare that to my historical and moving averages for that day, or in other contexts.  I can update my nanoblog with the press of a key, or, just for fun I made a little device I can hang round my neck, when I press a button, it sends a keystroke to my machine, and relays that off to the cloud.

I run a small open source project, and wanted to reward people with some karma every time I fixed a bug.  I can do that by hooking my ticket system into another site which stores karma for people for the things they've done and it's marked up in RDFa.  Indeed they can transfer that karma to someone else, if that other person has contributed, and use FOAF+SSL.  I can get notified when someone has fixed a bug in my project, or made an improvement to the wiki.  In effect my project has done a virtual IPO and is issuing it's own virtual currency, karma.  One day it might offer to buy the karma back.

One other thing I do is that I can aggregate all the accounts in my FOAF and my blog, and can see all the activities that they have done recently, delicious bookmarks, twitter, flickr etc.  I can jump to a someone in my foaf:knows list and see what they've done.  With smob I host my own microblog on my homepage, and my posts get relayed out to my followers, twitter, and sindice.

I haven't even mentioned linked data yet.  With linked geo data I can look at all the amenites on my street, in my town, and link them to other resources.  It wont be long before my friends with smartphones will be able to check in to places, and I'll be able to meet them for a coffee.

I've only been really following the Semantic Web closely for about 2 years, and most of that time has been learning, but if there's one thing I would describe it as, it would be USEFUL.  Some of this stuff can only really be done on the semantic web.  I cant describe to you how happy this makes me.  And there's so much more to come, it's only going to get better and better.  I build this stuff primarily for myself to use, but it's usable by anyone.  Once other people start using global data, using authorization, making things read write, and linking it together, the usefulness will expand exponentially.

I'm LOVING the Semantic Web.  We have this incredible playground, this universe, and it's all ours!   They say that all good innovation comes from scratching an itch.  What's your itch?  Why not use the web of data to give it a scratch?  And maybe we can all become a bit richer from it ... :)
 

something better change

(I'm a scaredy pacifist, so don't take that to heart)

--
http://danny.ayers.name


Danny Ayers | 29 Mar 23:43 2010
Picon

Re: call to arms

Good news Melvin. Now how do I get something like you've got?

On 29 March 2010 23:38, Melvin Carvalho <melvincarvalho <at> gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> 2010/3/29 Danny Ayers <danny.ayers <at> gmail.com>
>>
>> Right now, despite the promise, things seem mired in the mud. People
>> aren't seeing the things that the Web of Data has proposed.
>>
>> How do we get over this?
>>
>> Face to face maybe - the bits the interwebs can't provide.
>>
>> I suggest the leading lights of this sturm sit down in a room
>> somewhere in northern Europe, and hammer the damn thing down. It is so
>> stupid for it to take so long.
>>
>> The Internet, and the Web is excellent at providing miraculous stuff,
>> but the humans that tie the things together seem to be disappearing
>> into different worlds.
>>
>> The Semantic Web should be useful by now, by anyone's predictions.
>
> The Semantic Web IS useful, at least I find it so.
>
> For years and years I looked for a way to login to a website without me
> having to run a server or have lots of passwords, my search lead me to
> FOAF+SSL, I now run half a dozen little websites, each part of my linked
> data footprint, and use my certificate to login.  I can also log in to any
> openid site with my own FOAF certificate.  Before apple broke it, I was able
> to log into my sites using an ipod touch with one press, which I dont think
> anyone has done before.
>
> For a long time I wanted to create a task list and notifications system.  I
> now use sparql update to upload my tasks to my own personal data wiki (I
> sometimes use webdav), use roqet and sparql to get some values back, process
> them a bit (one day I'll learn RIF or N3 rules), and then it hooks into my
> kalarm clock and notifies me when I have to do stuff.
>
> My tasks are stored in my personal 'nano' blog which scores me an integer
> between 0-255 for the various things I do during the day.  I can track how
> productive I've been on a given day, week or month, and compare that to my
> historical and moving averages for that day, or in other contexts.  I can
> update my nanoblog with the press of a key, or, just for fun I made a little
> device I can hang round my neck, when I press a button, it sends a keystroke
> to my machine, and relays that off to the cloud.
>
> I run a small open source project, and wanted to reward people with some
> karma every time I fixed a bug.  I can do that by hooking my ticket system
> into another site which stores karma for people for the things they've done
> and it's marked up in RDFa.  Indeed they can transfer that karma to someone
> else, if that other person has contributed, and use FOAF+SSL.  I can get
> notified when someone has fixed a bug in my project, or made an improvement
> to the wiki.  In effect my project has done a virtual IPO and is issuing
> it's own virtual currency, karma.  One day it might offer to buy the karma
> back.
>
> One other thing I do is that I can aggregate all the accounts in my FOAF and
> my blog, and can see all the activities that they have done recently,
> delicious bookmarks, twitter, flickr etc.  I can jump to a someone in my
> foaf:knows list and see what they've done.  With smob I host my own
> microblog on my homepage, and my posts get relayed out to my followers,
> twitter, and sindice.
>
> I haven't even mentioned linked data yet.  With linked geo data I can look
> at all the amenites on my street, in my town, and link them to other
> resources.  It wont be long before my friends with smartphones will be able
> to check in to places, and I'll be able to meet them for a coffee.
>
> I've only been really following the Semantic Web closely for about 2 years,
> and most of that time has been learning, but if there's one thing I would
> describe it as, it would be USEFUL.  Some of this stuff can only really be
> done on the semantic web.  I cant describe to you how happy this makes me.
> And there's so much more to come, it's only going to get better and better.
> I build this stuff primarily for myself to use, but it's usable by anyone.
> Once other people start using global data, using authorization, making
> things read write, and linking it together, the usefulness will expand
> exponentially.
>
> I'm LOVING the Semantic Web.  We have this incredible playground, this
> universe, and it's all ours!   They say that all good innovation comes from
> scratching an itch.  What's your itch?  Why not use the web of data to give
> it a scratch?  And maybe we can all become a bit richer from it ... :)
>
>>
>> something better change
>>
>> (I'm a scaredy pacifist, so don't take that to heart)
>>
>> --
>> http://danny.ayers.name
>>
>
>

--

-- 
http://danny.ayers.name

Melvin Carvalho | 29 Mar 23:58 2010
Picon

Re: call to arms



2010/3/29 Danny Ayers <danny.ayers <at> gmail.com>
Good news Melvin. Now how do I get something like you've got?

Work out what you do, then build it piece by piece.  I think when more people start using sparql update we'll have a lot more interesting situations on our hands, so sparql 1.1 is going to be great in that respect.

Some Components I Use (probably in order of usefulness):

Desktop -- I use Ubuntu with all the excellent command line tooling
SPARQL Update / Datawiki -- I use http://bnode.org/blog/2008/01/15/arc-data-wiki-plugin
Certificates -- Probably right now the best place is xwiki http://webid.myxwiki.org/
FOAF+SSL Login -- I use henry's delegated server to become a login https://foafssl.org/srv/idp?authreqissuer=<SITE_URI>
WebDAV -- I use a the PEAR server http://pear.php.net/package/HTTP_WebDAV_Server/redirected

I'm generally inspired by the discussions on the foaf-protocols list, which is where I've shared most of the things I've looked at ( http://lists.foaf-project.org/mailman/listinfo/foaf-protocols ).  I tend to share my code on github etc. some is still quite basic and in progress, but it tends to get cleaned up according to interest. 
 

On 29 March 2010 23:38, Melvin Carvalho <melvincarvalho <at> gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> 2010/3/29 Danny Ayers <danny.ayers <at> gmail.com>
>>
>> Right now, despite the promise, things seem mired in the mud. People
>> aren't seeing the things that the Web of Data has proposed.
>>
>> How do we get over this?
>>
>> Face to face maybe - the bits the interwebs can't provide.
>>
>> I suggest the leading lights of this sturm sit down in a room
>> somewhere in northern Europe, and hammer the damn thing down. It is so
>> stupid for it to take so long.
>>
>> The Internet, and the Web is excellent at providing miraculous stuff,
>> but the humans that tie the things together seem to be disappearing
>> into different worlds.
>>
>> The Semantic Web should be useful by now, by anyone's predictions.
>
> The Semantic Web IS useful, at least I find it so.
>
> For years and years I looked for a way to login to a website without me
> having to run a server or have lots of passwords, my search lead me to
> FOAF+SSL, I now run half a dozen little websites, each part of my linked
> data footprint, and use my certificate to login.  I can also log in to any
> openid site with my own FOAF certificate.  Before apple broke it, I was able
> to log into my sites using an ipod touch with one press, which I dont think
> anyone has done before.
>
> For a long time I wanted to create a task list and notifications system.  I
> now use sparql update to upload my tasks to my own personal data wiki (I
> sometimes use webdav), use roqet and sparql to get some values back, process
> them a bit (one day I'll learn RIF or N3 rules), and then it hooks into my
> kalarm clock and notifies me when I have to do stuff.
>
> My tasks are stored in my personal 'nano' blog which scores me an integer
> between 0-255 for the various things I do during the day.  I can track how
> productive I've been on a given day, week or month, and compare that to my
> historical and moving averages for that day, or in other contexts.  I can
> update my nanoblog with the press of a key, or, just for fun I made a little
> device I can hang round my neck, when I press a button, it sends a keystroke
> to my machine, and relays that off to the cloud.
>
> I run a small open source project, and wanted to reward people with some
> karma every time I fixed a bug.  I can do that by hooking my ticket system
> into another site which stores karma for people for the things they've done
> and it's marked up in RDFa.  Indeed they can transfer that karma to someone
> else, if that other person has contributed, and use FOAF+SSL.  I can get
> notified when someone has fixed a bug in my project, or made an improvement
> to the wiki.  In effect my project has done a virtual IPO and is issuing
> it's own virtual currency, karma.  One day it might offer to buy the karma
> back.
>
> One other thing I do is that I can aggregate all the accounts in my FOAF and
> my blog, and can see all the activities that they have done recently,
> delicious bookmarks, twitter, flickr etc.  I can jump to a someone in my
> foaf:knows list and see what they've done.  With smob I host my own
> microblog on my homepage, and my posts get relayed out to my followers,
> twitter, and sindice.
>
> I haven't even mentioned linked data yet.  With linked geo data I can look
> at all the amenites on my street, in my town, and link them to other
> resources.  It wont be long before my friends with smartphones will be able
> to check in to places, and I'll be able to meet them for a coffee.
>
> I've only been really following the Semantic Web closely for about 2 years,
> and most of that time has been learning, but if there's one thing I would
> describe it as, it would be USEFUL.  Some of this stuff can only really be
> done on the semantic web.  I cant describe to you how happy this makes me.
> And there's so much more to come, it's only going to get better and better.
> I build this stuff primarily for myself to use, but it's usable by anyone.
> Once other people start using global data, using authorization, making
> things read write, and linking it together, the usefulness will expand
> exponentially.
>
> I'm LOVING the Semantic Web.  We have this incredible playground, this
> universe, and it's all ours!   They say that all good innovation comes from
> scratching an itch.  What's your itch?  Why not use the web of data to give
> it a scratch?  And maybe we can all become a bit richer from it ... :)
>
>>
>> something better change
>>
>> (I'm a scaredy pacifist, so don't take that to heart)
>>
>> --
>> http://danny.ayers.name
>>
>
>



--
http://danny.ayers.name

Paola Di Maio | 30 Mar 00:17 2010
Picon

Re: call to arms

Melvin

you provide a nice list, but I have the impression most people find it ..... not fun?

I think you can achieve most of what you say below with less complexity using more intuitive systems (say open ID)

if there were  intefaces to wrap around the components without me having to handle the complexity, and
provide what you say below as a web service, I ll be the first to have a go

Do not expect non geeks, non experts, to actually work tru the complexity below to achive what is
from the 'operational logic' a very marginal utility that can be achieved using other means with less effort

As I emailed Danny and Sandro offlist, user centric design starts developing a system from the users viewpoint
(the interfaces).

from where I stand, the main thing the SW needs is interfaces that simplyfy/enable/support/facilitate the navigation thru the sw functions
(for example a comprehensive dumbproof website with an interface that guides me thru all the things I can do with the zillion triples already in the wild)
try this, try that, enter some data here to transform it into RDF, then enter some data here to see the relation of this object with another object etc)

task model orientation kind of thing
 

give me an interface that does all that for me I ll test drive it any day



PDM




On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 9:58 PM, Melvin Carvalho <melvincarvalho <at> gmail.com> wrote:


2010/3/29 Danny Ayers <danny.ayers <at> gmail.com>
Good news Melvin. Now how do I get something like you've got?

Work out what you do, then build it piece by piece.  I think when more people start using sparql update we'll have a lot more interesting situations on our hands, so sparql 1.1 is going to be great in that respect.

Some Components I Use (probably in order of usefulness):

Desktop -- I use Ubuntu with all the excellent command line tooling
SPARQL Update / Datawiki -- I use http://bnode.org/blog/2008/01/15/arc-data-wiki-plugin
Certificates -- Probably right now the best place is xwiki http://webid.myxwiki.org/
FOAF+SSL Login -- I use henry's delegated server to become a login https://foafssl.org/srv/idp?authreqissuer=<SITE_URI>
WebDAV -- I use a the PEAR server http://pear.php.net/package/HTTP_WebDAV_Server/redirected

I'm generally inspired by the discussions on the foaf-protocols list, which is where I've shared most of the things I've looked at ( http://lists.foaf-project.org/mailman/listinfo/foaf-protocols ).  I tend to share my code on github etc. some is still quite basic and in progress, but it tends to get cleaned up according to interest. 
 

On 29 March 2010 23:38, Melvin Carvalho <melvincarvalho <at> gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> 2010/3/29 Danny Ayers <danny.ayers <at> gmail.com>
>>
>> Right now, despite the promise, things seem mired in the mud. People
>> aren't seeing the things that the Web of Data has proposed.
>>
>> How do we get over this?
>>
>> Face to face maybe - the bits the interwebs can't provide.
>>
>> I suggest the leading lights of this sturm sit down in a room
>> somewhere in northern Europe, and hammer the damn thing down. It is so
>> stupid for it to take so long.
>>
>> The Internet, and the Web is excellent at providing miraculous stuff,
>> but the humans that tie the things together seem to be disappearing
>> into different worlds.
>>
>> The Semantic Web should be useful by now, by anyone's predictions.
>
> The Semantic Web IS useful, at least I find it so.
>
> For years and years I looked for a way to login to a website without me
> having to run a server or have lots of passwords, my search lead me to
> FOAF+SSL, I now run half a dozen little websites, each part of my linked
> data footprint, and use my certificate to login.  I can also log in to any
> openid site with my own FOAF certificate.  Before apple broke it, I was able
> to log into my sites using an ipod touch with one press, which I dont think
> anyone has done before.
>
> For a long time I wanted to create a task list and notifications system.  I
> now use sparql update to upload my tasks to my own personal data wiki (I
> sometimes use webdav), use roqet and sparql to get some values back, process
> them a bit (one day I'll learn RIF or N3 rules), and then it hooks into my
> kalarm clock and notifies me when I have to do stuff.
>
> My tasks are stored in my personal 'nano' blog which scores me an integer
> between 0-255 for the various things I do during the day.  I can track how
> productive I've been on a given day, week or month, and compare that to my
> historical and moving averages for that day, or in other contexts.  I can
> update my nanoblog with the press of a key, or, just for fun I made a little
> device I can hang round my neck, when I press a button, it sends a keystroke
> to my machine, and relays that off to the cloud.
>
> I run a small open source project, and wanted to reward people with some
> karma every time I fixed a bug.  I can do that by hooking my ticket system
> into another site which stores karma for people for the things they've done
> and it's marked up in RDFa.  Indeed they can transfer that karma to someone
> else, if that other person has contributed, and use FOAF+SSL.  I can get
> notified when someone has fixed a bug in my project, or made an improvement
> to the wiki.  In effect my project has done a virtual IPO and is issuing
> it's own virtual currency, karma.  One day it might offer to buy the karma
> back.
>
> One other thing I do is that I can aggregate all the accounts in my FOAF and
> my blog, and can see all the activities that they have done recently,
> delicious bookmarks, twitter, flickr etc.  I can jump to a someone in my
> foaf:knows list and see what they've done.  With smob I host my own
> microblog on my homepage, and my posts get relayed out to my followers,
> twitter, and sindice.
>
> I haven't even mentioned linked data yet.  With linked geo data I can look
> at all the amenites on my street, in my town, and link them to other
> resources.  It wont be long before my friends with smartphones will be able
> to check in to places, and I'll be able to meet them for a coffee.
>
> I've only been really following the Semantic Web closely for about 2 years,
> and most of that time has been learning, but if there's one thing I would
> describe it as, it would be USEFUL.  Some of this stuff can only really be
> done on the semantic web.  I cant describe to you how happy this makes me.
> And there's so much more to come, it's only going to get better and better.
> I build this stuff primarily for myself to use, but it's usable by anyone.
> Once other people start using global data, using authorization, making
> things read write, and linking it together, the usefulness will expand
> exponentially.
>
> I'm LOVING the Semantic Web.  We have this incredible playground, this
> universe, and it's all ours!   They say that all good innovation comes from
> scratching an itch.  What's your itch?  Why not use the web of data to give
> it a scratch?  And maybe we can all become a bit richer from it ... :)
>
>>
>> something better change
>>
>> (I'm a scaredy pacifist, so don't take that to heart)
>>
>> --
>> http://danny.ayers.name
>>
>
>



--
http://danny.ayers.name




--
Paola Di Maio
**************************************************
“Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
Albert Einstein
**************************************************

RE: call to arms

I agree with what was said by Paola. I think for the semantic web can move forward and that people actually take advantage of its benefits, it is necessary to facilitate its implementation.

It needs to be transparant for the user. The user does not have to understand what it is of RDF triples, ontology, and so on. Users see clearly the advantages and use it when the interfaces are simple and the results are practical.

 

All that Melvin has made it very interesting, but what can be achieved without any technical knowledge?

 

Best regards,

Emmanuelle

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Emmanuelle Gutiérrez y Restrepo

Directora de la Fundación Sidar

Coordinadora del Seminario SIDAR

www.sidar.org

email: coordina <at> sidar.org / emmanuelle <at> sidar.org

 

 

 

De: semantic-web-request <at> w3.org [mailto:semantic-web-request <at> w3.org] En nombre de Paola Di Maio
Enviado el: martes, 30 de marzo de 2010 0:17
Para: Melvin Carvalho
CC: Danny Ayers; Semantic Web
Asunto: Re: call to arms

 

Melvin

you provide a nice list, but I have the impression most people find it ..... not fun?

I think you can achieve most of what you say below with less complexity using more intuitive systems (say open ID)

if there were  intefaces to wrap around the components without me having to handle the complexity, and
provide what you say below as a web service, I ll be the first to have a go

Do not expect non geeks, non experts, to actually work tru the complexity below to achive what is
from the 'operational logic' a very marginal utility that can be achieved using other means with less effort

As I emailed Danny and Sandro offlist, user centric design starts developing a system from the users viewpoint
(the interfaces).

from where I stand, the main thing the SW needs is interfaces that simplyfy/enable/support/facilitate the navigation thru the sw functions
(for example a comprehensive dumbproof website with an interface that guides me thru all the things I can do with the zillion triples already in the wild)
try this, try that, enter some data here to transform it into RDF, then enter some data here to see the relation of this object with another object etc)

task model orientation kind of thing
 

give me an interface that does all that for me I ll test drive it any day



PDM



On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 9:58 PM, Melvin Carvalho <melvincarvalho <at> gmail.com> wrote:

 

2010/3/29 Danny Ayers <danny.ayers <at> gmail.com>

Good news Melvin. Now how do I get something like you've got?


Work out what you do, then build it piece by piece.  I think when more people start using sparql update we'll have a lot more interesting situations on our hands, so sparql 1.1 is going to be great in that respect.

Some Components I Use (probably in order of usefulness):

Desktop -- I use Ubuntu with all the excellent command line tooling
SPARQL Update / Datawiki -- I use http://bnode.org/blog/2008/01/15/arc-data-wiki-plugin
Certificates -- Probably right now the best place is xwiki http://webid.myxwiki.org/
FOAF+SSL Login -- I use henry's delegated server to become a login https://foafssl.org/srv/idp?authreqissuer=<SITE_URI>
WebDAV -- I use a the PEAR server http://pear.php.net/package/HTTP_WebDAV_Server/redirected

I'm generally inspired by the discussions on the foaf-protocols list, which is where I've shared most of the things I've looked at ( http://lists.foaf-project.org/mailman/listinfo/foaf-protocols ).  I tend to share my code on github etc. some is still quite basic and in progress, but it tends to get cleaned up according to interest. 
 


On 29 March 2010 23:38, Melvin Carvalho <melvincarvalho <at> gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> 2010/3/29 Danny Ayers <danny.ayers <at> gmail.com>
>>
>> Right now, despite the promise, things seem mired in the mud. People
>> aren't seeing the things that the Web of Data has proposed.
>>
>> How do we get over this?
>>
>> Face to face maybe - the bits the interwebs can't provide.
>>
>> I suggest the leading lights of this sturm sit down in a room
>> somewhere in northern Europe, and hammer the damn thing down. It is so
>> stupid for it to take so long.
>>
>> The Internet, and the Web is excellent at providing miraculous stuff,
>> but the humans that tie the things together seem to be disappearing
>> into different worlds.
>>
>> The Semantic Web should be useful by now, by anyone's predictions.
>
> The Semantic Web IS useful, at least I find it so.
>
> For years and years I looked for a way to login to a website without me
> having to run a server or have lots of passwords, my search lead me to
> FOAF+SSL, I now run half a dozen little websites, each part of my linked
> data footprint, and use my certificate to login.  I can also log in to any
> openid site with my own FOAF certificate.  Before apple broke it, I was able
> to log into my sites using an ipod touch with one press, which I dont think
> anyone has done before.
>
> For a long time I wanted to create a task list and notifications system.  I
> now use sparql update to upload my tasks to my own personal data wiki (I
> sometimes use webdav), use roqet and sparql to get some values back, process
> them a bit (one day I'll learn RIF or N3 rules), and then it hooks into my
> kalarm clock and notifies me when I have to do stuff.
>
> My tasks are stored in my personal 'nano' blog which scores me an integer
> between 0-255 for the various things I do during the day.  I can track how
> productive I've been on a given day, week or month, and compare that to my
> historical and moving averages for that day, or in other contexts.  I can
> update my nanoblog with the press of a key, or, just for fun I made a little
> device I can hang round my neck, when I press a button, it sends a keystroke
> to my machine, and relays that off to the cloud.
>
> I run a small open source project, and wanted to reward people with some
> karma every time I fixed a bug.  I can do that by hooking my ticket system
> into another site which stores karma for people for the things they've done
> and it's marked up in RDFa.  Indeed they can transfer that karma to someone
> else, if that other person has contributed, and use FOAF+SSL.  I can get
> notified when someone has fixed a bug in my project, or made an improvement
> to the wiki.  In effect my project has done a virtual IPO and is issuing
> it's own virtual currency, karma.  One day it might offer to buy the karma
> back.
>
> One other thing I do is that I can aggregate all the accounts in my FOAF and
> my blog, and can see all the activities that they have done recently,
> delicious bookmarks, twitter, flickr etc.  I can jump to a someone in my
> foaf:knows list and see what they've done.  With smob I host my own
> microblog on my homepage, and my posts get relayed out to my followers,
> twitter, and sindice.
>
> I haven't even mentioned linked data yet.  With linked geo data I can look
> at all the amenites on my street, in my town, and link them to other
> resources.  It wont be long before my friends with smartphones will be able
> to check in to places, and I'll be able to meet them for a coffee.
>
> I've only been really following the Semantic Web closely for about 2 years,
> and most of that time has been learning, but if there's one thing I would
> describe it as, it would be USEFUL.  Some of this stuff can only really be
> done on the semantic web.  I cant describe to you how happy this makes me.
> And there's so much more to come, it's only going to get better and better.
> I build this stuff primarily for myself to use, but it's usable by anyone.
> Once other people start using global data, using authorization, making
> things read write, and linking it together, the usefulness will expand
> exponentially.
>
> I'm LOVING the Semantic Web.  We have this incredible playground, this
> universe, and it's all ours!   They say that all good innovation comes from
> scratching an itch.  What's your itch?  Why not use the web of data to give
> it a scratch?  And maybe we can all become a bit richer from it ... :)
>
>>
>> something better change
>>
>> (I'm a scaredy pacifist, so don't take that to heart)
>>
>> --
>> http://danny.ayers.name
>>
>
>


--
http://danny.ayers.name

 




--
Paola Di Maio
**************************************************
“Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
Albert Einstein
**************************************************

Obrst, Leo J. | 30 Mar 01:41 2010
Picon

RE: call to arms

Very little can be achieved without technical knowledge and integration of multiple tools, because the Semantic Web is infrastructure, not an end-user application. Even advanced technical tools such as TopBraid, which integrates a range of tools, can’t be used by end-users without some learning pain. And of course, it costs money.

 

Melvin gave a very low-cost way to integrate, but low-cost does not imply low-knowledge. http://webid.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Main/WebHome is fairly low cost, but it’s not everything to everybody.

 

If you think of the Semantic Web/Linked Data as providing infrastructure, then you understand that potentially untold numbers of applications can utilize it. Decision support, social networking, data integration, smart grid, information/sensor fusion, situational awareness, mobile context determination/action, intelligent tutoring/education, information retrieval, etc. Where to stop?  Look at Siri: it’s not an arbitrary application, but a specific one. Look at semantic desktops and semantic wikis, semantic search. These are all different applications.  Do you want a Web DBMS?

 

If you want to bundle together a set of integrated infrastructure services, and just call out to it from your application, think of the difficulty in just calling out to a database. You need a DBMS which bundles everything together, an application (code/services + GUI) based on your own requirements, someone to construct the schema and populate/maintain the database, supporting code+services that surround the database and provides you with stuff neither the DBMS nor the application provides.

 

The pre-Semantic Web, i.e., the WWW, bundled together a lot of services and brought out 1) a common GUI called the browser, and 2) a common server (more or less) that the browser talked to and powered. There are some SW browsers, but typically that is not what folks want, or at least not only what they want.

 

I understand Danny’s concern: let’s get on with it, but with some understanding.

 

Thanks,

Leo

 


 

 

From: semantic-web-request <at> w3.org [mailto:semantic-web-request <at> w3.org] On Behalf Of Emmanuelle Gutiérrez y Restrepo
Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 6:32 PM
To: paoladimaio10 <at> googlemail.com; 'Melvin Carvalho'
Cc: 'Danny Ayers'; 'Semantic Web'
Subject: RE: call to arms

 

I agree with what was said by Paola. I think for the semantic web can move forward and that people actually take advantage of its benefits, it is necessary to facilitate its implementation.

It needs to be transparant for the user. The user does not have to understand what it is of RDF triples, ontology, and so on. Users see clearly the advantages and use it when the interfaces are simple and the results are practical.

 

All that Melvin has made it very interesting, but what can be achieved without any technical knowledge?

 

Best regards,

Emmanuelle

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Emmanuelle Gutiérrez y Restrepo

Directora de la Fundación Sidar

Coordinadora del Seminario SIDAR

www.sidar.org

email: coordina <at> sidar.org / emmanuelle <at> sidar.org

 

 

 

De: semantic-web-request <at> w3.org [mailto:semantic-web-request <at> w3.org] En nombre de Paola Di Maio
Enviado el: martes, 30 de marzo de 2010 0:17
Para: Melvin Carvalho
CC: Danny Ayers; Semantic Web
Asunto: Re: call to arms

 

Melvin

you provide a nice list, but I have the impression most people find it ..... not fun?

I think you can achieve most of what you say below with less complexity using more intuitive systems (say open ID)

if there were  intefaces to wrap around the components without me having to handle the complexity, and
provide what you say below as a web service, I ll be the first to have a go

Do not expect non geeks, non experts, to actually work tru the complexity below to achive what is
from the 'operational logic' a very marginal utility that can be achieved using other means with less effort

As I emailed Danny and Sandro offlist, user centric design starts developing a system from the users viewpoint
(the interfaces).

from where I stand, the main thing the SW needs is interfaces that simplyfy/enable/support/facilitate the navigation thru the sw functions
(for example a comprehensive dumbproof website with an interface that guides me thru all the things I can do with the zillion triples already in the wild)
try this, try that, enter some data here to transform it into RDF, then enter some data here to see the relation of this object with another object etc)

task model orientation kind of thing
 

give me an interface that does all that for me I ll test drive it any day



PDM


On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 9:58 PM, Melvin Carvalho <melvincarvalho <at> gmail.com> wrote:

 

2010/3/29 Danny Ayers <danny.ayers <at> gmail.com>

Good news Melvin. Now how do I get something like you've got?


Work out what you do, then build it piece by piece.  I think when more people start using sparql update we'll have a lot more interesting situations on our hands, so sparql 1.1 is going to be great in that respect.

Some Components I Use (probably in order of usefulness):

Desktop -- I use Ubuntu with all the excellent command line tooling
SPARQL Update / Datawiki -- I use http://bnode.org/blog/2008/01/15/arc-data-wiki-plugin
Certificates -- Probably right now the best place is xwiki http://webid.myxwiki.org/
FOAF+SSL Login -- I use henry's delegated server to become a login https://foafssl.org/srv/idp?authreqissuer=<SITE_URI>
WebDAV -- I use a the PEAR server http://pear.php.net/package/HTTP_WebDAV_Server/redirected

I'm generally inspired by the discussions on the foaf-protocols list, which is where I've shared most of the things I've looked at ( http://lists.foaf-project.org/mailman/listinfo/foaf-protocols ).  I tend to share my code on github etc. some is still quite basic and in progress, but it tends to get cleaned up according to interest. 
 


On 29 March 2010 23:38, Melvin Carvalho <melvincarvalho <at> gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> 2010/3/29 Danny Ayers <danny.ayers <at> gmail.com>
>>
>> Right now, despite the promise, things seem mired in the mud. People
>> aren't seeing the things that the Web of Data has proposed.
>>
>> How do we get over this?
>>
>> Face to face maybe - the bits the interwebs can't provide.
>>
>> I suggest the leading lights of this sturm sit down in a room
>> somewhere in northern Europe, and hammer the damn thing down. It is so
>> stupid for it to take so long.
>>
>> The Internet, and the Web is excellent at providing miraculous stuff,
>> but the humans that tie the things together seem to be disappearing
>> into different worlds.
>>
>> The Semantic Web should be useful by now, by anyone's predictions.
>
> The Semantic Web IS useful, at least I find it so.
>
> For years and years I looked for a way to login to a website without me
> having to run a server or have lots of passwords, my search lead me to
> FOAF+SSL, I now run half a dozen little websites, each part of my linked
> data footprint, and use my certificate to login.  I can also log in to any
> openid site with my own FOAF certificate.  Before apple broke it, I was able
> to log into my sites using an ipod touch with one press, which I dont think
> anyone has done before.
>
> For a long time I wanted to create a task list and notifications system.  I
> now use sparql update to upload my tasks to my own personal data wiki (I
> sometimes use webdav), use roqet and sparql to get some values back, process
> them a bit (one day I'll learn RIF or N3 rules), and then it hooks into my
> kalarm clock and notifies me when I have to do stuff.
>
> My tasks are stored in my personal 'nano' blog which scores me an integer
> between 0-255 for the various things I do during the day.  I can track how
> productive I've been on a given day, week or month, and compare that to my
> historical and moving averages for that day, or in other contexts.  I can
> update my nanoblog with the press of a key, or, just for fun I made a little
> device I can hang round my neck, when I press a button, it sends a keystroke
> to my machine, and relays that off to the cloud.
>
> I run a small open source project, and wanted to reward people with some
> karma every time I fixed a bug.  I can do that by hooking my ticket system
> into another site which stores karma for people for the things they've done
> and it's marked up in RDFa.  Indeed they can transfer that karma to someone
> else, if that other person has contributed, and use FOAF+SSL.  I can get
> notified when someone has fixed a bug in my project, or made an improvement
> to the wiki.  In effect my project has done a virtual IPO and is issuing
> it's own virtual currency, karma.  One day it might offer to buy the karma
> back.
>
> One other thing I do is that I can aggregate all the accounts in my FOAF and
> my blog, and can see all the activities that they have done recently,
> delicious bookmarks, twitter, flickr etc.  I can jump to a someone in my
> foaf:knows list and see what they've done.  With smob I host my own
> microblog on my homepage, and my posts get relayed out to my followers,
> twitter, and sindice.
>
> I haven't even mentioned linked data yet.  With linked geo data I can look
> at all the amenites on my street, in my town, and link them to other
> resources.  It wont be long before my friends with smartphones will be able
> to check in to places, and I'll be able to meet them for a coffee.
>
> I've only been really following the Semantic Web closely for about 2 years,
> and most of that time has been learning, but if there's one thing I would
> describe it as, it would be USEFUL.  Some of this stuff can only really be
> done on the semantic web.  I cant describe to you how happy this makes me.
> And there's so much more to come, it's only going to get better and better.
> I build this stuff primarily for myself to use, but it's usable by anyone.
> Once other people start using global data, using authorization, making
> things read write, and linking it together, the usefulness will expand
> exponentially.
>
> I'm LOVING the Semantic Web.  We have this incredible playground, this
> universe, and it's all ours!   They say that all good innovation comes from
> scratching an itch.  What's your itch?  Why not use the web of data to give
> it a scratch?  And maybe we can all become a bit richer from it ... :)
>
>>
>> something better change
>>
>> (I'm a scaredy pacifist, so don't take that to heart)
>>
>> --
>> http://danny.ayers.name
>>
>
>

--
http://danny.ayers.name

 




--
Paola Di Maio
**************************************************
“Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
Albert Einstein
**************************************************

Melvin Carvalho | 30 Mar 00:50 2010
Picon

Re: call to arms



2010/3/30 Paola Di Maio <paola.dimaio <at> gmail.com>
Melvin

you provide a nice list, but I have the impression most people find it ..... not fun?

I think you can achieve most of what you say below with less complexity using more intuitive systems (say open ID)

Dont get me wrong I'm a big fan of OpenID, but it was the complexity of OpenID that lead me to FOAF+SSL.  With openid you need a server that can provide and verify your identity.  With FOAF+SSL you just need one click to make your browser into your own identity provider.  FOAF also has the wonderful side-effect that once you've got the ID, you've got all the friends and other information there, for free.
 

if there were  intefaces to wrap around the components without me having to handle the complexity, and
provide what you say below as a web service, I ll be the first to have a go

Do not expect non geeks, non experts, to actually work tru the complexity below to achive what is
from the 'operational logic' a very marginal utility that can be achieved using other means with less effort

It's not necesarily that hard, and I cut corners where necessary, in improve iteratively, as necessary.

curl -d " insert { <#x> <#y> <#z> } " URI

Is enough to insert a datapoint into a datawiki.  That's a pretty good start, which gives you awesome power.
 

As I emailed Danny and Sandro offlist, user centric design starts developing a system from the users viewpoint
(the interfaces).

from where I stand, the main thing the SW needs is interfaces that simplyfy/enable/support/facilitate the navigation thru the sw functions
(for example a comprehensive dumbproof website with an interface that guides me thru all the things I can do with the zillion triples already in the wild)
try this, try that, enter some data here to transform it into RDF, then enter some data here to see the relation of this object with another object etc)

task model orientation kind of thing
 

give me an interface that does all that for me I ll test drive it any day

Agree 100% that non-geeks are missing out on semantic web goodness, but it's a fact that good UI's take time to build and/or capital investment. 

But how about this one, though?

http://linkedgeodata.org/browser/?lat=51.512596339703&lon=-0.11626397668084&zoom=16&prop=amenity&val=pub

Here's one I built, it's a work in progress, that's not really much by modern standards, but at least you can click on various tabs.

http://foaf.me/index.php?webid=http://danbri.org/foaf.rdf#danbri

Hopefully we can build out better UI's over time. 
 



PDM





On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 9:58 PM, Melvin Carvalho <melvincarvalho <at> gmail.com> wrote:


2010/3/29 Danny Ayers <danny.ayers <at> gmail.com>
Good news Melvin. Now how do I get something like you've got?

Work out what you do, then build it piece by piece.  I think when more people start using sparql update we'll have a lot more interesting situations on our hands, so sparql 1.1 is going to be great in that respect.

Some Components I Use (probably in order of usefulness):

Desktop -- I use Ubuntu with all the excellent command line tooling
SPARQL Update / Datawiki -- I use http://bnode.org/blog/2008/01/15/arc-data-wiki-plugin
Certificates -- Probably right now the best place is xwiki http://webid.myxwiki.org/
FOAF+SSL Login -- I use henry's delegated server to become a login https://foafssl.org/srv/idp?authreqissuer=<SITE_URI>
WebDAV -- I use a the PEAR server http://pear.php.net/package/HTTP_WebDAV_Server/redirected

I'm generally inspired by the discussions on the foaf-protocols list, which is where I've shared most of the things I've looked at ( http://lists.foaf-project.org/mailman/listinfo/foaf-protocols ).  I tend to share my code on github etc. some is still quite basic and in progress, but it tends to get cleaned up according to interest. 
 

On 29 March 2010 23:38, Melvin Carvalho <melvincarvalho <at> gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> 2010/3/29 Danny Ayers <danny.ayers <at> gmail.com>
>>
>> Right now, despite the promise, things seem mired in the mud. People
>> aren't seeing the things that the Web of Data has proposed.
>>
>> How do we get over this?
>>
>> Face to face maybe - the bits the interwebs can't provide.
>>
>> I suggest the leading lights of this sturm sit down in a room
>> somewhere in northern Europe, and hammer the damn thing down. It is so
>> stupid for it to take so long.
>>
>> The Internet, and the Web is excellent at providing miraculous stuff,
>> but the humans that tie the things together seem to be disappearing
>> into different worlds.
>>
>> The Semantic Web should be useful by now, by anyone's predictions.
>
> The Semantic Web IS useful, at least I find it so.
>
> For years and years I looked for a way to login to a website without me
> having to run a server or have lots of passwords, my search lead me to
> FOAF+SSL, I now run half a dozen little websites, each part of my linked
> data footprint, and use my certificate to login.  I can also log in to any
> openid site with my own FOAF certificate.  Before apple broke it, I was able
> to log into my sites using an ipod touch with one press, which I dont think
> anyone has done before.
>
> For a long time I wanted to create a task list and notifications system.  I
> now use sparql update to upload my tasks to my own personal data wiki (I
> sometimes use webdav), use roqet and sparql to get some values back, process
> them a bit (one day I'll learn RIF or N3 rules), and then it hooks into my
> kalarm clock and notifies me when I have to do stuff.
>
> My tasks are stored in my personal 'nano' blog which scores me an integer
> between 0-255 for the various things I do during the day.  I can track how
> productive I've been on a given day, week or month, and compare that to my
> historical and moving averages for that day, or in other contexts.  I can
> update my nanoblog with the press of a key, or, just for fun I made a little
> device I can hang round my neck, when I press a button, it sends a keystroke
> to my machine, and relays that off to the cloud.
>
> I run a small open source project, and wanted to reward people with some
> karma every time I fixed a bug.  I can do that by hooking my ticket system
> into another site which stores karma for people for the things they've done
> and it's marked up in RDFa.  Indeed they can transfer that karma to someone
> else, if that other person has contributed, and use FOAF+SSL.  I can get
> notified when someone has fixed a bug in my project, or made an improvement
> to the wiki.  In effect my project has done a virtual IPO and is issuing
> it's own virtual currency, karma.  One day it might offer to buy the karma
> back.
>
> One other thing I do is that I can aggregate all the accounts in my FOAF and
> my blog, and can see all the activities that they have done recently,
> delicious bookmarks, twitter, flickr etc.  I can jump to a someone in my
> foaf:knows list and see what they've done.  With smob I host my own
> microblog on my homepage, and my posts get relayed out to my followers,
> twitter, and sindice.
>
> I haven't even mentioned linked data yet.  With linked geo data I can look
> at all the amenites on my street, in my town, and link them to other
> resources.  It wont be long before my friends with smartphones will be able
> to check in to places, and I'll be able to meet them for a coffee.
>
> I've only been really following the Semantic Web closely for about 2 years,
> and most of that time has been learning, but if there's one thing I would
> describe it as, it would be USEFUL.  Some of this stuff can only really be
> done on the semantic web.  I cant describe to you how happy this makes me.
> And there's so much more to come, it's only going to get better and better.
> I build this stuff primarily for myself to use, but it's usable by anyone.
> Once other people start using global data, using authorization, making
> things read write, and linking it together, the usefulness will expand
> exponentially.
>
> I'm LOVING the Semantic Web.  We have this incredible playground, this
> universe, and it's all ours!   They say that all good innovation comes from
> scratching an itch.  What's your itch?  Why not use the web of data to give
> it a scratch?  And maybe we can all become a bit richer from it ... :)
>
>>
>> something better change
>>
>> (I'm a scaredy pacifist, so don't take that to heart)
>>
>> --
>> http://danny.ayers.name
>>
>
>



--
http://danny.ayers.name




--
Paola Di Maio
**************************************************
“Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
Albert Einstein
**************************************************


Paola Di Maio | 30 Mar 01:41 2010
Picon

Re: call to arms

Melvin

I dont use openID much either, dont ask me why, but it was an example






curl -d " insert { <#x> <#y> <#z> } " URI

Is enough to insert a datapoint into a datawiki.  That's a pretty good start, which gives you awesome power.

its the psychology of the non geek that you need to take into account
if a user does not understand something, moves away

i dont understand the above line (I dont have a context for it)

its a cognitive barrier of sort,
 

nice, but a bit more explanation  of how to use it, would be even more helpful what it represents etc

the lable 'class hierarchy' has to go, in favour of: things to see in this part of town (or something)


faceted browsing means something to me, but I can guarantee you that to many of my colleagues it would nto mean anything
(for example, the material scientists, the civil engineers, the mechanical fluids engineers, they have no idea of what faceted browsing is)

you need some knowledge even to navigate that site and that knowledge needs to be
made explicit and expresse in the language/jargon of choice of the user (how to use this site etc)

interaction design, and interface design are quite deep 'sciences' in their own way

Here's one I built, it's a work in progress, that's not really much by modern standards, but at least you can click on various tabs.

http://foaf.me/index.php?webid=http://danbri.org/foaf.rdf#danbri

yes, nice

Hopefully we can build out better UI's over time. 


I think user center designer would say hopefully can build more useful systems over time

its all about  different points of view,
(I liked that adveritisng campaign a lot
http://theinspirationroom.com/daily/print/2007/12/hsbc_hell_holiday.jpg)



 



PDM





On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 9:58 PM, Melvin Carvalho <melvincarvalho <at> gmail.com> wrote:


2010/3/29 Danny Ayers <danny.ayers <at> gmail.com>
Good news Melvin. Now how do I get something like you've got?

Work out what you do, then build it piece by piece.  I think when more people start using sparql update we'll have a lot more interesting situations on our hands, so sparql 1.1 is going to be great in that respect.

Some Components I Use (probably in order of usefulness):

Desktop -- I use Ubuntu with all the excellent command line tooling
SPARQL Update / Datawiki -- I use http://bnode.org/blog/2008/01/15/arc-data-wiki-plugin
Certificates -- Probably right now the best place is xwiki http://webid.myxwiki.org/
FOAF+SSL Login -- I use henry's delegated server to become a login https://foafssl.org/srv/idp?authreqissuer=<SITE_URI>
WebDAV -- I use a the PEAR server http://pear.php.net/package/HTTP_WebDAV_Server/redirected

I'm generally inspired by the discussions on the foaf-protocols list, which is where I've shared most of the things I've looked at ( http://lists.foaf-project.org/mailman/listinfo/foaf-protocols ).  I tend to share my code on github etc. some is still quite basic and in progress, but it tends to get cleaned up according to interest. 
 

On 29 March 2010 23:38, Melvin Carvalho <melvincarvalho <at> gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> 2010/3/29 Danny Ayers <danny.ayers <at> gmail.com>
>>
>> Right now, despite the promise, things seem mired in the mud. People
>> aren't seeing the things that the Web of Data has proposed.
>>
>> How do we get over this?
>>
>> Face to face maybe - the bits the interwebs can't provide.
>>
>> I suggest the leading lights of this sturm sit down in a room
>> somewhere in northern Europe, and hammer the damn thing down. It is so
>> stupid for it to take so long.
>>
>> The Internet, and the Web is excellent at providing miraculous stuff,
>> but the humans that tie the things together seem to be disappearing
>> into different worlds.
>>
>> The Semantic Web should be useful by now, by anyone's predictions.
>
> The Semantic Web IS useful, at least I find it so.
>
> For years and years I looked for a way to login to a website without me
> having to run a server or have lots of passwords, my search lead me to
> FOAF+SSL, I now run half a dozen little websites, each part of my linked
> data footprint, and use my certificate to login.  I can also log in to any
> openid site with my own FOAF certificate.  Before apple broke it, I was able
> to log into my sites using an ipod touch with one press, which I dont think
> anyone has done before.
>
> For a long time I wanted to create a task list and notifications system.  I
> now use sparql update to upload my tasks to my own personal data wiki (I
> sometimes use webdav), use roqet and sparql to get some values back, process
> them a bit (one day I'll learn RIF or N3 rules), and then it hooks into my
> kalarm clock and notifies me when I have to do stuff.
>
> My tasks are stored in my personal 'nano' blog which scores me an integer
> between 0-255 for the various things I do during the day.  I can track how
> productive I've been on a given day, week or month, and compare that to my
> historical and moving averages for that day, or in other contexts.  I can
> update my nanoblog with the press of a key, or, just for fun I made a little
> device I can hang round my neck, when I press a button, it sends a keystroke
> to my machine, and relays that off to the cloud.
>
> I run a small open source project, and wanted to reward people with some
> karma every time I fixed a bug.  I can do that by hooking my ticket system
> into another site which stores karma for people for the things they've done
> and it's marked up in RDFa.  Indeed they can transfer that karma to someone
> else, if that other person has contributed, and use FOAF+SSL.  I can get
> notified when someone has fixed a bug in my project, or made an improvement
> to the wiki.  In effect my project has done a virtual IPO and is issuing
> it's own virtual currency, karma.  One day it might offer to buy the karma
> back.
>
> One other thing I do is that I can aggregate all the accounts in my FOAF and
> my blog, and can see all the activities that they have done recently,
> delicious bookmarks, twitter, flickr etc.  I can jump to a someone in my
> foaf:knows list and see what they've done.  With smob I host my own
> microblog on my homepage, and my posts get relayed out to my followers,
> twitter, and sindice.
>
> I haven't even mentioned linked data yet.  With linked geo data I can look
> at all the amenites on my street, in my town, and link them to other
> resources.  It wont be long before my friends with smartphones will be able
> to check in to places, and I'll be able to meet them for a coffee.
>
> I've only been really following the Semantic Web closely for about 2 years,
> and most of that time has been learning, but if there's one thing I would
> describe it as, it would be USEFUL.  Some of this stuff can only really be
> done on the semantic web.  I cant describe to you how happy this makes me.
> And there's so much more to come, it's only going to get better and better.
> I build this stuff primarily for myself to use, but it's usable by anyone.
> Once other people start using global data, using authorization, making
> things read write, and linking it together, the usefulness will expand
> exponentially.
>
> I'm LOVING the Semantic Web.  We have this incredible playground, this
> universe, and it's all ours!   They say that all good innovation comes from
> scratching an itch.  What's your itch?  Why not use the web of data to give
> it a scratch?  And maybe we can all become a bit richer from it ... :)
>
>>
>> something better change
>>
>> (I'm a scaredy pacifist, so don't take that to heart)
>>
>> --
>> http://danny.ayers.name
>>
>
>



--
http://danny.ayers.name




--
Paola Di Maio
**************************************************
“Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
Albert Einstein
**************************************************





--
Paola Di Maio
**************************************************
“Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
Albert Einstein
**************************************************

Peter Ansell | 30 Mar 01:52 2010
Picon

Re: call to arms

On 30 March 2010 08:50, Melvin Carvalho <melvincarvalho <at> gmail.com> wrote:
> 2010/3/30 Paola Di Maio <paola.dimaio <at> gmail.com>
>> Melvin
>>
>> you provide a nice list, but I have the impression most people find it
>> ..... not fun?
>>
>> I think you can achieve most of what you say below with less complexity
>> using more intuitive systems (say open ID)
>
> Dont get me wrong I'm a big fan of OpenID, but it was the complexity of
> OpenID that lead me to FOAF+SSL.  With openid you need a server that can
> provide and verify your identity.  With FOAF+SSL you just need one click to
> make your browser into your own identity provider.  FOAF also has the
> wonderful side-effect that once you've got the ID, you've got all the
> friends and other information there, for free.

The idea of the technology sounds interesting, as long as users can
securely login from anywhere in the world as they can now. Can't go
back to the bad old days where logins were restricted to particular
workstations.

Overall though, Distributed identity isn't a killer application, as
proven by OpenID, and distributed social networking may not be as
necessary as one might think, per the enormous popularity of *the*
widely used social network, Facebook (outranking Google in terms of
web traffic), especially given the demise of Google Wave, which was
intended to be a distributed social network but failed miserably.
People like to keep different parts of their life separate, and may
not appreciate that every website may be retrieving their identity
without their knowledge. Privacy is non-existent if people don't have
a chance to view, understand, and authorise privacy policies, and with
FOAF, associates have no way of accepting the agreement themselves
before their information is obtained by the server if it automatically
decides to retrieve and store their personal information based on a
link in a FOAF file. For all its faults, Facebook is in a position to
let users restrict where their personal information goes, where this
authority won't be available in a distributed network.

There are still many questions overall though:

Does FOAF+SSL require users to stick to a particular computer? Is it
useful and safe for private use on public or company computers?

My previous impressions of relying on user certificates is that they
were just relying on users passwords on their personal computers to
unlock their certificates to avoid using passwords on websites.

How is it any more structurally safe to deploy your private key on a
public or company computer in order to work with these services than
to restrict logins to passwords that users do not have to deploy onto
a computer other than to type it in?

Would it require users to personally carry their private key around?
What happens if they lose their private key? Locked out permanently?
Will users need more than one private key if the technology is widely
used? How does one retract permission for a private key if it is
compromised? If companies require users to regularly rotate their
private key as they do with passwords if FOAF+SSL becomes popular with
companies, will this destroy the whole system?

For all of the complexity of OpenID at least it allows users to choose
how they are going to authenticate with their identity provider, and
hence does not require them to know about all of the security issues
around the use of a private key if the identity provider does not
require them to know that.

Are private keys are going to be stored on a server somewhere to avoid
the issue of having users manage their certificates as they are never
going to be widely trained in the protocols of how to do this anyway.
If that is the case then why do we need to depart from OpenID as the
currently known, if not highly used, method of distributed
authentication? How do users authenticate with the place that the
certificate is stored when they want to retrieve it? Passwords? Ie,
the insecure method that FOAF+SSL is trying to remove?

Not sure if the answers to these questions are widely known but I
haven't been able to answer conclusively them looking through the few
documents that relate to this very new technology.

Cheers,

Peter

henry.story | 30 Mar 01:09 2010
Picon

Re: call to arms


On 30 Mar 2010, at 00:31, Emmanuelle Gutiérrez y Restrepo wrote:

> It needs to be transparant for the user. The user does not have to
> understand what it is of RDF triples, ontology, and so on. Users see clearly
> the advantages and use it when the interfaces are simple and the results are
> practical.

Emmanuelle, do the following:

1. go to http://webid.myxwiki.org/
   (imagine that this is some Web 2.0 service you allready use, like a
   university profile page, or your twitter account)

2. Create yourself an account
  ( sorry about this, but I can't magically transform the service you
  are using, so I have to show you on a service that you don't use)

3. Create yourself a WebId in your profile page.
  - note that is one click login

4. Try out some of the demo services we have
   http://esw.w3.org/Foaf%2Bssl/RelyingParties

Now imagine a bit that this is how all our services are. You will admit that this is easier than what we have now since:

  0. the user never sees any rdf triple. (it's in the rdfa)
  1. you would never need to create another account (unless you wanted to)
  2. you could access remote services without typing a login or a password or even an openid
  3. the whole web would feed like a social network
  4. your data could be safe on your own server (useful for government and medical organisations) as well as
for people in countries with less restrictions on their governements.

   Henry

Karl Dubost | 30 Mar 01:21 2010
Picon

Re: call to arms


Le 29 mars 2010 à 15:39, Danny Ayers a écrit :
> The Semantic Web should be useful by now, by anyone's predictions.

First take a look at:

http://linkeddata.org/
http://semanticweb.org/wiki/Main_Page
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/
http://www.google.com/search?q=Semantic+Web
http://www.google.com/search?q=linked+data

It is ugly :) hard core, difficult to look at

Check any CSS Web gallery
http://www.cssbeauty.com/archives/category/business/
http://cssremix.com/

You might not like them, it might not suit some geeks tastes, but it matters for many people.

ACTION: Work with Web and UX designers

Tools
http://openid4.me/
http://webid.myxwiki.org/

No way you will convice people with it :)
What is the narrative? What is the story around it?
Look at these http://webdesignledger.com/inspiration/interface-design-loginsignup

ACTION: Package tools in a way which is seamless.

Danny has been one of the most convincing evangelist for years. We need more. 
ACTION: Tell a story to people.

--

-- 
Karl Dubost
Montréal, QC, Canada
http://www.la-grange.net/karl/

K. Krasnow Waterman | 30 Mar 03:11 2010
Picon

RE: call to arms

I hope you'll allow me to jump in.  I don't know most of you but have been
part of the MIT DIG group for several years and organized the Linked Data
Lab here in January.

I always point to my husband when I describe why/how the Web got successful
so fast.  He was not involved in programming or technology in any way, but
GeoCities (remember them?) made it so easy to make and post a web page on
whatever interested you, that he was able to make a page in about two hours
in 1995.  He did it because it was something new and its outcome was
self-evident (publishing to the world for free).  

Since social networking isn't new and the SemWeb benefits so far are hard to
describe, I don't think that will win millions of fans.  Conversely, I think
that Linked Data could take SemWeb viral.  What is new is the concept of
getting exactly what you want to know.  I think when there's a geocities
equivalent for linked data -- something that lets a user easily build a
single query that gives them the result that today takes 20+ queries -- you
won't be able to hold back the tide.  To get there, we need more programmers
with Linked Data skills and some good standards for how to communicate
across ontologies.

Thanks, -k

-----Original Message-----
From: semantic-web-request <at> w3.org [mailto:semantic-web-request <at> w3.org] On
Behalf Of Karl Dubost
Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 7:22 PM
To: Danny Ayers
Cc: Semantic Web
Subject: Re: call to arms

Le 29 mars 2010 à 15:39, Danny Ayers a écrit :
> The Semantic Web should be useful by now, by anyone's predictions.

First take a look at:

http://linkeddata.org/
http://semanticweb.org/wiki/Main_Page
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/
http://www.google.com/search?q=Semantic+Web
http://www.google.com/search?q=linked+data

It is ugly :) hard core, difficult to look at

Check any CSS Web gallery
http://www.cssbeauty.com/archives/category/business/
http://cssremix.com/

You might not like them, it might not suit some geeks tastes, but it matters
for many people.

ACTION: Work with Web and UX designers

Tools
http://openid4.me/
http://webid.myxwiki.org/

No way you will convice people with it :)
What is the narrative? What is the story around it?
Look at these
http://webdesignledger.com/inspiration/interface-design-loginsignup

ACTION: Package tools in a way which is seamless.

Danny has been one of the most convincing evangelist for years. We need
more. 
ACTION: Tell a story to people.

--

-- 
Karl Dubost
Montréal, QC, Canada
http://www.la-grange.net/karl/

Story Henry | 30 Mar 16:22 2010
Picon

Re: call to arms


On 30 Mar 2010, at 02:11, K. Krasnow Waterman wrote:

> I hope you'll allow me to jump in.  I don't know most of you but have been
> part of the MIT DIG group for several years and organized the Linked Data
> Lab here in January.
> 
> I always point to my husband when I describe why/how the Web got successful
> so fast.  He was not involved in programming or technology in any way, but
> GeoCities (remember them?) made it so easy to make and post a web page on
> whatever interested you, that he was able to make a page in about two hours
> in 1995.  He did it because it was something new and its outcome was
> self-evident (publishing to the world for free).  

Let us take the time machine back then.
http://web.archive.org/web/19961022173252/www.geocities.com/BHI/about.html

[[
GeoCities is a company dedicated to offering rich and dynamic content for our members and visitors alike.
The centerpiece of that strategy is providingfree Personal Home Pages in one of our twenty-seven
themedcommunities to anyone with access to the Web. We also offer a free GeoCities Email account to
everyone that signs up for a free home page. We have more than 140,000 individuals sharing their thoughts
and passions with the world, and creating the most diverse and unique content on the Web.
]]

Notice how geocities was about creating a space for someone to describe themselves: their home page.

The first thing everyone did on the web was to write a home page. Similarly the first thing people do in linked
data is link their friends. If this can be shown to be useful, then it will  increase the value of doing it. For
the moment, writing your foaf profile is nearly just a write only exercise. Some robots read it, but the
result of doing so is not immediately obvious, if at all. Once one can see what the benefit is - and here I mean
close to immediate feedback - such as getting access to a campus, being able to chat with friends, not
having complex logins - being better able to communicate with friends of friends - then there will be a
better reason, not only for oneself to have a profile but for one to get others to have one too.

> 
> Since social networking isn't new and the SemWeb benefits so far are hard to
> describe,

The outcome is pretty easy to describe: you are no longer locked into one provider.
For the millions of people that have lost all the work they did because their social service provider went
belly up, that is immediately easy to understand. For all the organisations that can't put people on
Facebook, that is also easy. 

It's just that bootstrapping requires a bit of faith.

> I don't think that will win millions of fans.  Conversely, I think
> that Linked Data could take SemWeb viral.  

Yes, foaf is linked data. It's the most personal linked data there is.
Just as geocities started by putting the individual at the center, so foaf starts at the same place.
Foaf+ssl just allows people to protect some of their information, and also allows them to gain access to
other services. This can give the foaf an immediate magical effect.

> What is new is the concept of getting exactly what you want to know.  
> I think when there's a geocities
> equivalent for linked data -- something that lets a user easily build a
> single query that gives them the result that today takes 20+ queries -- you
> won't be able to hold back the tide.  

Everybody is interested in something different. There will be no one database that will
interest everyone. And even if it did, it would in the end with a good UI not seem to anyone as if it were linked
data: since people will gravitate towards the interface that best hides that fact. 

If you want to help people grok linked data just having them play with data that is based on Linked Data won't
help. After all: how would they distinguish that from normal data?

> To get there, we need more programmers
> with Linked Data skills and some good standards for how to communicate
> across ontologies.

Yes, the best way to do that is to start getting people to play with social networks.
They are bound to be interested. As they improve the descriptions about themselves, they will then turn to
dbpedia, musicbrains, and all the other linked data sites out there. Building on the initial social
momentum will get all the other services tied in.

I did not start out doing foaf+ssl. I started trying Atom then Atom/OWL, the bug databases. In the end I came
to the conclusion that we need people to put together their own geocities page.

> 
> Thanks, -k

Thanks for reminding me of geocities :-)

> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: semantic-web-request <at> w3.org [mailto:semantic-web-request <at> w3.org] On
> Behalf Of Karl Dubost
> Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 7:22 PM
> To: Danny Ayers
> Cc: Semantic Web
> Subject: Re: call to arms
> 
> 
> Le 29 mars 2010 à 15:39, Danny Ayers a écrit :
>> The Semantic Web should be useful by now, by anyone's predictions.
> 
> 
> First take a look at:
> 
> http://linkeddata.org/
> http://semanticweb.org/wiki/Main_Page
> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/
> http://www.google.com/search?q=Semantic+Web
> http://www.google.com/search?q=linked+data
> 
> It is ugly :) hard core, difficult to look at
> 
> Check any CSS Web gallery
> http://www.cssbeauty.com/archives/category/business/
> http://cssremix.com/
> 
> You might not like them, it might not suit some geeks tastes, but it matters
> for many people.
> 
> ACTION: Work with Web and UX designers
> 
> Tools
> http://openid4.me/
> http://webid.myxwiki.org/
> 
> No way you will convice people with it :)
> What is the narrative? What is the story around it?
> Look at these
> http://webdesignledger.com/inspiration/interface-design-loginsignup
> 
> 
> ACTION: Package tools in a way which is seamless.
> 
> 
> Danny has been one of the most convincing evangelist for years. We need
> more. 
> ACTION: Tell a story to people.
> 
> -- 
> Karl Dubost
> Montréal, QC, Canada
> http://www.la-grange.net/karl/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

Sampo Syreeni | 30 Mar 17:43 2010
Picon
Picon

Re: call to arms

On 2010-03-30, Story Henry wrote:

> For the moment, writing your foaf profile is nearly just a write only 
> exercise. Some robots read it, but the result of doing so is not 
> immediately obvious, if at all. Once one can see what the benefit is - 
> and here I mean close to immediate feedback - such as getting access 
> to a campus, being able to chat with friends, [...]

So in essence what we need is a distributed version of Facebook: all of 
the user specific metadata stored as RDF documents on the Web and/or 
accessible via some well-defined protocol which can also do targeted 
pushes and/or pulls of triples. (I wonder whether Google's Wave stuff 
could help here; certainly some version of it could.) A UI layer on top 
of that to make it usable and beautiful. Trust, which in this case would 
probably be email authentication directly to your hosting node, with 
optional PGP crypto. Perhaps also aggregation of inter-host dataflows 
for efficiency.

The main problem I see with this sort of thing is that you'd have to pay 
for your subscription to one of the hosts (or host your own). Financing 
from ads wouldn't be easy in this sort of environment, because you could 
always roll your own open source implementation which excluded any ad 
from other people's feeds. OTOH, any particular host implementation 
could do whatever it wanted at the UI layer.

> The outcome is pretty easy to describe: you are no longer locked into 
> one provider.

Yes, and that is part of the funding problem. I mean, I've repeatedly 
asked Google to enable plain exports of data from their services. Even 
they don't go there -- lock-in is evidently part of their business 
model too.

> If you want to help people grok linked data just having them play with 
> data that is based on Linked Data won't help. After all: how would 
> they distinguish that from normal data?

One big way to make that distinction would be to build in location 
independence from the start. That is, deep support for multiple 
identifiers for the same data, means of propagating trust from one 
identifier to the next, and eventually resolution services which enable 
you to rename data to its newest URI. If this sort of thing took off, 
even the giants like Google and Facebook would be inclined to either 
implement their own resolution services or to subscribe to an existing 
one.

> Yes, the best way to do that is to start getting people to play with 
> social networks. They are bound to be interested. As they improve the 
> descriptions about themselves, they will then turn to dbpedia, 
> musicbrains, and all the other linked data sites out there.

Yes. In their most rudimentary forms, I think of such services as yet 
another app/box on your (distributed) Facebook page. In the next phase 
as integration of the basic data elements into the overall UI (i.e. when 
I state I like kittens, every box that has to do with likes actually 
links to some ontology and disambiguates the meaning using standard UI 
components and data sources). And come nirvana, PnP/DnD ad hoc 
functionality to build the boxes in the first place. ;)
--

-- 
Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - decoy <at> iki.fi, http://decoy.iki.fi/front
+358-50-5756111, 025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2

Ying Ding | 31 Mar 02:38 2010
Picon

Re: call to arms

The effort of developing a semantic facebook for life scientist (called 
VIVO) is on the way and funded by NIH: 
http://www.nature.com/naturejobs/2009/091105/full/nj7269-123a.html.

The preliminary versions have been running at the following sites:

VIVO Cornell      http://vivo.cornell.edu/
VIVO University of Florida     http://vivoweb.org/
VIVO Indiana University     http://vivo.iu.edu/
Southwest Biodiversity Knowledge Environment in China    
http://ske.las.ac.cn/
Plant Evolutionary Biology Knowledge Environment in China    
http://botany.las.ac.cn/
Biomedical and Health Knowledge Environment     http://health.las.ac.cn/

More further development and improvement will be continuously released, 
please check: http://www.vivoweb.org/

best
ying

Sampo Syreeni wrote:
> On 2010-03-30, Story Henry wrote:
>
>> For the moment, writing your foaf profile is nearly just a write only 
>> exercise. Some robots read it, but the result of doing so is not 
>> immediately obvious, if at all. Once one can see what the benefit is 
>> - and here I mean close to immediate feedback - such as getting 
>> access to a campus, being able to chat with friends, [...]
>
> So in essence what we need is a distributed version of Facebook: all 
> of the user specific metadata stored as RDF documents on the Web 
> and/or accessible via some well-defined protocol which can also do 
> targeted pushes and/or pulls of triples. (I wonder whether Google's 
> Wave stuff could help here; certainly some version of it could.) A UI 
> layer on top of that to make it usable and beautiful. Trust, which in 
> this case would probably be email authentication directly to your 
> hosting node, with optional PGP crypto. Perhaps also aggregation of 
> inter-host dataflows for efficiency.
>
> The main problem I see with this sort of thing is that you'd have to 
> pay for your subscription to one of the hosts (or host your own). 
> Financing from ads wouldn't be easy in this sort of environment, 
> because you could always roll your own open source implementation 
> which excluded any ad from other people's feeds. OTOH, any particular 
> host implementation could do whatever it wanted at the UI layer.
>
>> The outcome is pretty easy to describe: you are no longer locked into 
>> one provider.
>
> Yes, and that is part of the funding problem. I mean, I've repeatedly 
> asked Google to enable plain exports of data from their services. Even 
> they don't go there -- lock-in is evidently part of their business 
> model too.
>
>> If you want to help people grok linked data just having them play 
>> with data that is based on Linked Data won't help. After all: how 
>> would they distinguish that from normal data?
>
> One big way to make that distinction would be to build in location 
> independence from the start. That is, deep support for multiple 
> identifiers for the same data, means of propagating trust from one 
> identifier to the next, and eventually resolution services which 
> enable you to rename data to its newest URI. If this sort of thing 
> took off, even the giants like Google and Facebook would be inclined 
> to either implement their own resolution services or to subscribe to 
> an existing one.
>
>> Yes, the best way to do that is to start getting people to play with 
>> social networks. They are bound to be interested. As they improve the 
>> descriptions about themselves, they will then turn to dbpedia, 
>> musicbrains, and all the other linked data sites out there.
>
> Yes. In their most rudimentary forms, I think of such services as yet 
> another app/box on your (distributed) Facebook page. In the next phase 
> as integration of the basic data elements into the overall UI (i.e. 
> when I state I like kittens, every box that has to do with likes 
> actually links to some ontology and disambiguates the meaning using 
> standard UI components and data sources). And come nirvana, PnP/DnD ad 
> hoc functionality to build the boxes in the first place. ;)

--

-- 
Ying Ding, Assistant Professor of Information Science
School of Library & Information Science, Indiana University
1320 East 10th Street, Herman B Wells Library, LI025
Bloomington, IN 47405, USA

Tel: (812) 855 5388, Fax: (812) 855 6166 
Semantic Web Lab: http://swl.slis.indiana.edu/
Homepage: http://info.slis.indiana.edu/~dingying/

Melvin Carvalho | 30 Mar 21:47 2010
Picon

Re: call to arms



2010/3/30 Karl Dubost <karl+w3c <at> la-grange.net>

Le 29 mars 2010 à 15:39, Danny Ayers a écrit :
> The Semantic Web should be useful by now, by anyone's predictions.


First take a look at:

http://linkeddata.org/
http://semanticweb.org/wiki/Main_Page
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/
http://www.google.com/search?q=Semantic+Web
http://www.google.com/search?q=linked+data

It is ugly :) hard core, difficult to look at

Check any CSS Web gallery
http://www.cssbeauty.com/archives/category/business/
http://cssremix.com/

How about this? http://vimeo.com/2147943
 

You might not like them, it might not suit some geeks tastes, but it matters for many people.

ACTION: Work with Web and UX designers

Tools
http://openid4.me/
http://webid.myxwiki.org/

No way you will convice people with it :)
What is the narrative? What is the story around it?
Look at these http://webdesignledger.com/inspiration/interface-design-loginsignup


ACTION: Package tools in a way which is seamless.


Danny has been one of the most convincing evangelist for years. We need more.
ACTION: Tell a story to people.

--
Karl Dubost
Montréal, QC, Canada
http://www.la-grange.net/karl/



Ian Davis | 1 Apr 03:25 2010

Re: call to arms

On Tuesday, March 30, 2010, Karl Dubost <karl+w3c <at> la-grange.net> wrote:
>
> Danny has been one of the most convincing evangelist for years. We need more.
> ACTION: Tell a story to people.
>

We (Talis) are doing this with Nodalities magazine, blogs and
podcasts, reaching out beyond the technologists. If you have stories
we want to help you get them known - free distribution for your ideas,
software, products, services or whatever. The only cost is the time it
takes you to write a couple of pages or to chat to us over skype. Just
email us at nodalities-magazine <at> talis.com

Remember no-one on this mailing list is a target for evangelism: we're
all convinced already! None of us are really target users for this
stuff either because we're much more interested in the architecture
and technology. We need to share stories and evangelise much wider to
the people who decide what technologies their organisations should
invest in.

Ian

Karl Dubost | 1 Apr 05:00 2010
Picon

Re: call to arms


Le 31 mars 2010 à 21:25, Ian Davis a écrit :
> We (Talis) are doing this with Nodalities magazine, blogs and
> podcasts, reaching out beyond the technologists.

who are the readers of Nodalities?
Knowing that it help to write for an audience.

I remember having written things about RDF the language, a loooooong time ago, to explain it.

	RDF pour les poètes
	http://www.la-grange.net/2004/08/05 (French)

But was for a beginner geek level.

--

-- 
Karl Dubost
Montréal, QC, Canada
http://www.la-grange.net/karl/

Melvin Carvalho | 1 Apr 06:35 2010
Picon

Re: call to arms



2010/4/1 Karl Dubost <karl+w3c <at> la-grange.net>

Le 31 mars 2010 à 21:25, Ian Davis a écrit :
> We (Talis) are doing this with Nodalities magazine, blogs and
> podcasts, reaching out beyond the technologists.

who are the readers of Nodalities?
Knowing that it help to write for an audience.

I'm one.  Absolutely excellent quality podcasts, IMHO.  Great guests, great moderation. Awesome attention to detail.
 

I remember having written things about RDF the language, a loooooong time ago, to explain it.

       RDF pour les poètes
       http://www.la-grange.net/2004/08/05 (French)

But was for a beginner geek level.


--
Karl Dubost
Montréal, QC, Canada
http://www.la-grange.net/karl/



Ivan Herman | 1 Apr 07:16 2010
Picon

Re: call to arms

Additionally to Nodalities...

A fairly long time ago we started a collection of SW Use Cases and Case Studies at W3C:

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/sweo/public/UseCases/

the goal was to collect real SW deployment examples in industry and academia (ie, not reports on university
projects). It is not perfect, it is not complete, but it is a start. W3C decided _not_ to 'edit' those
entries but, with minor modifications, take what is out there which also explains the different style
and, frankly, quality of the submissions.

It is true that, in the last year, the number of submissions slowed down which may be my fault; I do chase
applications but it is difficult to get people do the extra mile to write things down and sometimes I give
up. But improving, enriching, etc, this collection would be good and any help would be greatly welcome....

Ivan

On Apr 1, 2010, at 03:25 , Ian Davis wrote:

> On Tuesday, March 30, 2010, Karl Dubost <karl+w3c <at> la-grange.net> wrote:
>> 
>> Danny has been one of the most convincing evangelist for years. We need more.
>> ACTION: Tell a story to people.
>> 
> 
> We (Talis) are doing this with Nodalities magazine, blogs and
> podcasts, reaching out beyond the technologists. If you have stories
> we want to help you get them known - free distribution for your ideas,
> software, products, services or whatever. The only cost is the time it
> takes you to write a couple of pages or to chat to us over skype. Just
> email us at nodalities-magazine <at> talis.com
> 
> Remember no-one on this mailing list is a target for evangelism: we're
> all convinced already! None of us are really target users for this
> stuff either because we're much more interested in the architecture
> and technology. We need to share stories and evangelise much wider to
> the people who decide what technologies their organisations should
> invest in.
> 
> Ian
> 

----
Ivan Herman, W3C Semantic Web Activity Lead
Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
mobile: +31-641044153
PGP Key: http://www.ivan-herman.net/pgpkey.html
FOAF: http://www.ivan-herman.net/foaf.rdf

Attachment (smime.p7s): application/pkcs7-signature, 3214 bytes
Melvin Carvalho | 1 Apr 13:59 2010
Picon

Re: call to arms



2010/4/1 Ivan Herman <ivan <at> w3.org>
Additionally to Nodalities...

A fairly long time ago we started a collection of SW Use Cases and Case Studies at W3C:

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/sweo/public/UseCases/

Hadn't seen this before, a great list.

I think with the various use cases the implicit question posed is, 'when will the sem web reach it's maximum potential?'

I have a more basic and explicit question, 'when will the sem web reach it's minimum potential?'

As a relative newcomer perhaps I have a different perspective, but what I understand is that the semantic web is a fundamentally standard for marking up and exchanging semantic data in files according to web standards.

I would say the entry level requirement to the semantic web is to
1) put a file on the web and allow it to be read by using the semantic web,
2) allow it to be updated (sparql 1.1)
3) why not host it on your desktop, so that you can quickly and easily collaborate with your friends, send messages, share media etc.
4) (optional) if you want to add authentication / access control (the easiest way, and it is easy, is foaf+ssl)

How many people on this list actually do that?

I see this as bread and butter, "follow your nose", standards adherence.  There are some notable exceptions, but I've not seen many people get past (1) in the list.

Yesterday I hooked my desktop up with a friend and I can send him arbitrary data rich messages via a datawiki.  Now I can send sparql updates to his desktop with rich semantic meaning.  For example I can send.

<#me> <#reccomendsMusicTrack> <path-to-file>

to stream him music (i've intetionally used a 'toy' vocab here to get up and running immediately)

<#webmail123> <#subject> 'hi' ; <#body> 'long time no speak.  how are you? ; <#timestamp> '20100401Z' ; <#sender> <#me>

and we have an email system

etc. etc.

It's not a crazy experiment of an april fool, it's simply following the basic standards proposed by the W3C. 

I think this is really the 'call to arms'. 

Why aren't we doing this and seeing what use cases we solve, but more importantly, what use cases solve themselves?
 

the goal was to collect real SW deployment examples in industry and academia (ie, not reports on university projects). It is not perfect, it is not complete, but it is a start. W3C decided _not_ to 'edit' those entries but, with minor modifications, take what is out there which also explains the different style and, frankly, quality of the submissions.

It is true that, in the last year, the number of submissions slowed down which may be my fault; I do chase applications but it is difficult to get people do the extra mile to write things down and sometimes I give up. But improving, enriching, etc, this collection would be good and any help would be greatly welcome....

Ivan


On Apr 1, 2010, at 03:25 , Ian Davis wrote:

> On Tuesday, March 30, 2010, Karl Dubost <karl+w3c <at> la-grange.net> wrote:
>>
>> Danny has been one of the most convincing evangelist for years. We need more.
>> ACTION: Tell a story to people.
>>
>
> We (Talis) are doing this with Nodalities magazine, blogs and
> podcasts, reaching out beyond the technologists. If you have stories
> we want to help you get them known - free distribution for your ideas,
> software, products, services or whatever. The only cost is the time it
> takes you to write a couple of pages or to chat to us over skype. Just
> email us at nodalities-magazine <at> talis.com
>
> Remember no-one on this mailing list is a target for evangelism: we're
> all convinced already! None of us are really target users for this
> stuff either because we're much more interested in the architecture
> and technology. We need to share stories and evangelise much wider to
> the people who decide what technologies their organisations should
> invest in.
>
> Ian
>


----
Ivan Herman, W3C Semantic Web Activity Lead
Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
mobile: +31-641044153
PGP Key: http://www.ivan-herman.net/pgpkey.html
FOAF: http://www.ivan-herman.net/foaf.rdf






Danny Ayers | 1 Apr 21:35 2010
Picon

Re: call to arms

On 1 April 2010 13:59, Melvin Carvalho <melvincarvalho <at> gmail.com> wrote:

> I have a more basic and explicit question, 'when will the sem web reach it's
> minimum potential?'

That is a darn fine question!

--

-- 
http://danny.ayers.name

Paola Di Maio | 1 Apr 14:10 2010
Picon

Re: call to arms

Ivan
I have looked at a couple of the cases , and it seems to me a very good starting point
quite a lot there

They do not all seem to have the UML use case diagram associated with it though, but that doesnt really matter per se

some thoughts:

1. is there a way the authors of these case studies can be invited to join the SWUIG mailing list
(in case there are some follow up discussions)

2. to make sure the interface satisfies the user requirement (as opposed to the user requirements as presupposed by the developer) a
task analysis would be useful , this would have to be done by the authors of the case studies, in conjunction with users and some usability
person (developers are generally not good at seeing the system from the user perspective)

http://www.usabilitynet.org/tools/taskanalysis.htm


3. to issue guidelines for researchers to make sure use requirements,  usability standards and suitable interfaces should be prioritized
and developed in parallel with other aspects of the 'infrastructure'

4. I am sure I dont have to say this, but users should be found among a wider and heterogeneous stakholder pool, so it would be a question
of the respective researchers to establish a network of stakeholders and users among their target communities referred to in the repsective case studies


Happy to contribute to this side of the sw effort if I can, a DERI MSc student contacted me offliest may be able to
help lead this effort, will ping you her details separately


PDM




On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 5:16 AM, Ivan Herman <ivan <at> w3.org> wrote:
Additionally to Nodalities...

A fairly long time ago we started a collection of SW Use Cases and Case Studies at W3C:

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/sweo/public/UseCases/

the goal was to collect real SW deployment examples in industry and academia (ie, not reports on university projects). It is not perfect, it is not complete, but it is a start. W3C decided _not_ to 'edit' those entries but, with minor modifications, take what is out there which also explains the different style and, frankly, quality of the submissions.

It is true that, in the last year, the number of submissions slowed down which may be my fault; I do chase applications but it is difficult to get people do the extra mile to write things down and sometimes I give up. But improving, enriching, etc, this collection would be good and any help would be greatly welcome....

Ivan


On Apr 1, 2010, at 03:25 , Ian Davis wrote:

> On Tuesday, March 30, 2010, Karl Dubost <karl+w3c <at> la-grange.net> wrote:
>>
>> Danny has been one of the most convincing evangelist for years. We need more.
>> ACTION: Tell a story to people.
>>
>
> We (Talis) are doing this with Nodalities magazine, blogs and
> podcasts, reaching out beyond the technologists. If you have stories
> we want to help you get them known - free distribution for your ideas,
> software, products, services or whatever. The only cost is the time it
> takes you to write a couple of pages or to chat to us over skype. Just
> email us at nodalities-magazine <at> talis.com
>
> Remember no-one on this mailing list is a target for evangelism: we're
> all convinced already! None of us are really target users for this
> stuff either because we're much more interested in the architecture
> and technology. We need to share stories and evangelise much wider to
> the people who decide what technologies their organisations should
> invest in.
>
> Ian
>


----
Ivan Herman, W3C Semantic Web Activity Lead
Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
mobile: +31-641044153
PGP Key: http://www.ivan-herman.net/pgpkey.html
FOAF: http://www.ivan-herman.net/foaf.rdf








--
Paola Di Maio
**************************************************
“Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
Albert Einstein
**************************************************

Ivan Herman | 3 Apr 07:09 2010
Picon

Re: call to arms


On Apr 1, 2010, at 14:10 , Paola Di Maio wrote:

> Ivan
> I have looked at a couple of the cases , and it seems to me a very good starting point
> quite a lot there

Thanks you in the name of all the contributors. I am just a go-between:-)

> 
> They do not all seem to have the UML use case diagram associated with it though, but that doesnt really
matter per se
> 
> some thoughts:
> 
> 1. is there a way the authors of these case studies can be invited to join the SWUIG mailing list
> (in case there are some follow up discussions)

For the sad reasons of spams we decided not to add the email address of the contributors on the web, but I do
have all of them. If there are particular use cases where this is relevant, I am happy to share the email
address with you and you can invite them. 

I am not 100% sure that this would be relevant for all use cases, though. Semantic Web technologies are often
used behind the scenes, so to say, as part of the back end (typical example is BT's use case). That is why I
think you should look at them first.

Ivan

> 
> 2. to make sure the interface satisfies the user requirement (as opposed to the user requirements as
presupposed by the developer) a
> task analysis would be useful , this would have to be done by the authors of the case studies, in conjunction
with users and some usability
> person (developers are generally not good at seeing the system from the user perspective)
> 
> http://www.usabilitynet.org/tools/taskanalysis.htm
> 
> 
> 3. to issue guidelines for researchers to make sure use requirements,  usability standards and suitable
interfaces should be prioritized
> and developed in parallel with other aspects of the 'infrastructure'
> 
> 4. I am sure I dont have to say this, but users should be found among a wider and heterogeneous stakholder
pool, so it would be a question
> of the respective researchers to establish a network of stakeholders and users among their target
communities referred to in the repsective case studies
> 
> 
> Happy to contribute to this side of the sw effort if I can, a DERI MSc student contacted me offliest may be
able to 
> help lead this effort, will ping you her details separately
> 
> 
> PDM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 5:16 AM, Ivan Herman <ivan <at> w3.org> wrote:
> Additionally to Nodalities...
> 
> A fairly long time ago we started a collection of SW Use Cases and Case Studies at W3C:
> 
> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/sweo/public/UseCases/
> 
> the goal was to collect real SW deployment examples in industry and academia (ie, not reports on
university projects). It is not perfect, it is not complete, but it is a start. W3C decided _not_ to 'edit'
those entries but, with minor modifications, take what is out there which also explains the different
style and, frankly, quality of the submissions.
> 
> It is true that, in the last year, the number of submissions slowed down which may be my fault; I do chase
applications but it is difficult to get people do the extra mile to write things down and sometimes I give
up. But improving, enriching, etc, this collection would be good and any help would be greatly welcome....
> 
> Ivan
> 
> 
> On Apr 1, 2010, at 03:25 , Ian Davis wrote:
> 
> > On Tuesday, March 30, 2010, Karl Dubost <karl+w3c <at> la-grange.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> Danny has been one of the most convincing evangelist for years. We need more.
> >> ACTION: Tell a story to people.
> >>
> >
> > We (Talis) are doing this with Nodalities magazine, blogs and
> > podcasts, reaching out beyond the technologists. If you have stories
> > we want to help you get them known - free distribution for your ideas,
> > software, products, services or whatever. The only cost is the time it
> > takes you to write a couple of pages or to chat to us over skype. Just
> > email us at nodalities-magazine <at> talis.com
> >
> > Remember no-one on this mailing list is a target for evangelism: we're
> > all convinced already! None of us are really target users for this
> > stuff either because we're much more interested in the architecture
> > and technology. We need to share stories and evangelise much wider to
> > the people who decide what technologies their organisations should
> > invest in.
> >
> > Ian
> >
> 
> 
> ----
> Ivan Herman, W3C Semantic Web Activity Lead
> Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
> mobile: +31-641044153
> PGP Key: http://www.ivan-herman.net/pgpkey.html
> FOAF: http://www.ivan-herman.net/foaf.rdf
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Paola Di Maio
> **************************************************
> “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
> Albert Einstein
> **************************************************
> 

----
Ivan Herman, W3C Semantic Web Activity Lead
Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
mobile: +31-641044153
PGP Key: http://www.ivan-herman.net/pgpkey.html
FOAF: http://www.ivan-herman.net/foaf.rdf

Attachment (smime.p7s): application/pkcs7-signature, 3214 bytes
Paola Di Maio | 3 Apr 09:42 2010
Picon

Re: call to arms




I am not 100% sure that this would be relevant for all use cases, though. Semantic Web technologies are often used behind the scenes, so to say, as part of the back end (typical example is BT's use case).


yep sure - perhaps it may be useful to distinguish  these technologies into two groups for this purpose, those who reqire a gui and those who dont?

though even backend sw system components may benefit from better specified interfaces for the purpose
of facilitating integration with other systems

as I mentioned offlist to a replyt to Danny, it may be useful also having some metrics/parameters of what would be considered
a desirable success factor/adoption for a technology, to gauge the effectiveness of the results achieved
(is there any objective way to say if the sw is being realised or not, or to what extent and in any measureable way?)

anyway I do think its important to have a w3c focus on this, I have seen sw researchers and academics taking
the w3c guidlines and starndard very seriously and to the letter - some usability and interfaces design tied in the specs, as well as
some target metrics for deployments, can only help to make sure the whole picture is developed rather than just parts of it
even when the research emphasis is inherently elsewhere


Let me think a bit more about this

PDM




 
That is why I think you should look at them first.

Ivan


>
> 2. to make sure the interface satisfies the user requirement (as opposed to the user requirements as presupposed by the developer) a
> task analysis would be useful , this would have to be done by the authors of the case studies, in conjunction with users and some usability
> person (developers are generally not good at seeing the system from the user perspective)
>
> http://www.usabilitynet.org/tools/taskanalysis.htm
>
>
> 3. to issue guidelines for researchers to make sure use requirements,  usability standards and suitable interfaces should be prioritized
> and developed in parallel with other aspects of the 'infrastructure'
>
> 4. I am sure I dont have to say this, but users should be found among a wider and heterogeneous stakholder pool, so it would be a question
> of the respective researchers to establish a network of stakeholders and users among their target communities referred to in the repsective case studies
>
>
> Happy to contribute to this side of the sw effort if I can, a DERI MSc student contacted me offliest may be able to
> help lead this effort, will ping you her details separately
>
>
> PDM
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 5:16 AM, Ivan Herman <ivan <at> w3.org> wrote:
> Additionally to Nodalities...
>
> A fairly long time ago we started a collection of SW Use Cases and Case Studies at W3C:
>
> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/sweo/public/UseCases/
>
> the goal was to collect real SW deployment examples in industry and academia (ie, not reports on university projects). It is not perfect, it is not complete, but it is a start. W3C decided _not_ to 'edit' those entries but, with minor modifications, take what is out there which also explains the different style and, frankly, quality of the submissions.
>
> It is true that, in the last year, the number of submissions slowed down which may be my fault; I do chase applications but it is difficult to get people do the extra mile to write things down and sometimes I give up. But improving, enriching, etc, this collection would be good and any help would be greatly welcome....
>
> Ivan
>
>
> On Apr 1, 2010, at 03:25 , Ian Davis wrote:
>
> > On Tuesday, March 30, 2010, Karl Dubost <karl+w3c <at> la-grange.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> Danny has been one of the most convincing evangelist for years. We need more.
> >> ACTION: Tell a story to people.
> >>
> >
> > We (Talis) are doing this with Nodalities magazine, blogs and
> > podcasts, reaching out beyond the technologists. If you have stories
> > we want to help you get them known - free distribution for your ideas,
> > software, products, services or whatever. The only cost is the time it
> > takes you to write a couple of pages or to chat to us over skype. Just
> > email us at nodalities-magazine <at> talis.com
> >
> > Remember no-one on this mailing list is a target for evangelism: we're
> > all convinced already! None of us are really target users for this
> > stuff either because we're much more interested in the architecture
> > and technology. We need to share stories and evangelise much wider to
> > the people who decide what technologies their organisations should
> > invest in.
> >
> > Ian
> >
>
>
> ----
> Ivan Herman, W3C Semantic Web Activity Lead
> Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
> mobile: +31-641044153
> PGP Key: http://www.ivan-herman.net/pgpkey.html
> FOAF: http://www.ivan-herman.net/foaf.rdf
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Paola Di Maio
> **************************************************
> “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
> Albert Einstein
> **************************************************
>


----
Ivan Herman, W3C Semantic Web Activity Lead
Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
mobile: +31-641044153
PGP Key: http://www.ivan-herman.net/pgpkey.html
FOAF: http://www.ivan-herman.net/foaf.rdf








--
Paola Di Maio
**************************************************
“Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
Albert Einstein
**************************************************

adasal | 3 Apr 11:57 2010
Picon

Re: call to arms

Is this an exercise in who is using these technologies now?
A broader exercise would allow the fleshing out of use cases in something like the following fashion:

  1. Identify an existing problem area in the existing system
  2. Identify candidate solutions including
    1. their strengths and weaknesses
    2. interoperability with other existing and anticipated sub-systems
  3. demonstrate the possibility of staged build out - i.e. a means by which costs can be controlled
Although a paper exercise I would be interested in contributing to this as best I am able.
I believe I have sufficient knowledge of the system I have previously mentioned - the BT system - to successfully identify at least some important and relevant areas.
I think this would be valuable as these suggestions are subject to scrutiny and feed back.
Problems that might be tackled are the relationship between asset management, upgrade or rewrite all and costs. I mention this because this seems the least likely to succumb to a semantic treatment.
Not because there are no efforts in this direction, there are, but large vendors (and perhaps smaller ones, I don't know) have specialisms in this area which are both complex and difficult to assess from the outside.
But any proposal for a major site improvement immediately raises the question of whether the existing site should be scrapped, up graded or worked around, that is bolted onto.
Proposals have to be made in the context of these three possibilities.
The very first stage might be to outline what is needed to clarify the decision between them.
This is an issue of 'where to begin'.
Does semantic technology have a role here, as opposed to positing itself as a future implementation goal (a must have) to solve other problems?
In other words, how down and dirty and detailed can semantic technologies usefully become?
I find this an interesting problem.

Best,
Adam


On 3 April 2010 08:42, Paola Di Maio <paola.dimaio <at> gmail.com> wrote:



I am not 100% sure that this would be relevant for all use cases, though. Semantic Web technologies are often used behind the scenes, so to say, as part of the back end (typical example is BT's use case).


yep sure - perhaps it may be useful to distinguish  these technologies into two groups for this purpose, those who reqire a gui and those who dont?

though even backend sw system components may benefit from better specified interfaces for the purpose
of facilitating integration with other systems

as I mentioned offlist to a replyt to Danny, it may be useful also having some metrics/parameters of what would be considered
a desirable success factor/adoption for a technology, to gauge the effectiveness of the results achieved
(is there any objective way to say if the sw is being realised or not, or to what extent and in any measureable way?)

anyway I do think its important to have a w3c focus on this, I have seen sw researchers and academics taking
the w3c guidlines and starndard very seriously and to the letter - some usability and interfaces design tied in the specs, as well as
some target metrics for deployments, can only help to make sure the whole picture is developed rather than just parts of it
even when the research emphasis is inherently elsewhere


Let me think a bit more about this

PDM




 
That is why I think you should look at them first.

Ivan


>
> 2. to make sure the interface satisfies the user requirement (as opposed to the user requirements as presupposed by the developer) a
> task analysis would be useful , this would have to be done by the authors of the case studies, in conjunction with users and some usability
> person (developers are generally not good at seeing the system from the user perspective)
>
> http://www.usabilitynet.org/tools/taskanalysis.htm
>
>
> 3. to issue guidelines for researchers to make sure use requirements,  usability standards and suitable interfaces should be prioritized
> and developed in parallel with other aspects of the 'infrastructure'
>
> 4. I am sure I dont have to say this, but users should be found among a wider and heterogeneous stakholder pool, so it would be a question
> of the respective researchers to establish a network of stakeholders and users among their target communities referred to in the repsective case studies
>
>
> Happy to contribute to this side of the sw effort if I can, a DERI MSc student contacted me offliest may be able to
> help lead this effort, will ping you her details separately
>
>
> PDM
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 5:16 AM, Ivan Herman <ivan <at> w3.org> wrote:
> Additionally to Nodalities...
>
> A fairly long time ago we started a collection of SW Use Cases and Case Studies at W3C:
>
> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/sweo/public/UseCases/
>
> the goal was to collect real SW deployment examples in industry and academia (ie, not reports on university projects). It is not perfect, it is not complete, but it is a start. W3C decided _not_ to 'edit' those entries but, with minor modifications, take what is out there which also explains the different style and, frankly, quality of the submissions.
>
> It is true that, in the last year, the number of submissions slowed down which may be my fault; I do chase applications but it is difficult to get people do the extra mile to write things down and sometimes I give up. But improving, enriching, etc, this collection would be good and any help would be greatly welcome....
>
> Ivan
>
>
> On Apr 1, 2010, at 03:25 , Ian Davis wrote:
>
> > On Tuesday, March 30, 2010, Karl Dubost <karl+w3c <at> la-grange.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> Danny has been one of the most convincing evangelist for years. We need more.
> >> ACTION: Tell a story to people.
> >>
> >
> > We (Talis) are doing this with Nodalities magazine, blogs and
> > podcasts, reaching out beyond the technologists. If you have stories
> > we want to help you get them known - free distribution for your ideas,
> > software, products, services or whatever. The only cost is the time it
> > takes you to write a couple of pages or to chat to us over skype. Just
> > email us at nodalities-magazine <at> talis.com
> >
> > Remember no-one on this mailing list is a target for evangelism: we're
> > all convinced already! None of us are really target users for this
> > stuff either because we're much more interested in the architecture
> > and technology. We need to share stories and evangelise much wider to
> > the people who decide what technologies their organisations should
> > invest in.
> >
> > Ian
> >
>
>
> ----
> Ivan Herman, W3C Semantic Web Activity Lead
> Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
> mobile: +31-641044153
> PGP Key: http://www.ivan-herman.net/pgpkey.html
> FOAF: http://www.ivan-herman.net/foaf.rdf
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Paola Di Maio
> **************************************************
> “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
> Albert Einstein
> **************************************************
>


----
Ivan Herman, W3C Semantic Web Activity Lead
Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
mobile: +31-641044153
PGP Key: http://www.ivan-herman.net/pgpkey.html
FOAF: http://www.ivan-herman.net/foaf.rdf








--
Paola Di Maio
**************************************************
“Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
Albert Einstein
**************************************************


Paola Di Maio | 3 Apr 12:21 2010
Picon

Re: call to arms


sound like good problem fomulation as well as  'research questions' Adasal

I have started appreciating the value of writing papers in recent years, it helps to construct proper
thinking, alghough we need to get the knowledge out from the papers and into
peoples development practices - so much has already been written about

(thefefore pragmatic web slant)

a workshop? special journal issue?


I try to keep on top of all the many CFP related to SW I see, but few seem to capture /address the scope
'se usefulness/utility/measures of success' as being discussed here

Emmanuelle G and I have exchanged on this list before, but never took ideas any further

is there any work already underway that this thinking falls under? or does this thinking merits
its own thinktank? 

lets think if the constraints you outline below are good for everybody before making them the basis of
future work

i think also a SWUIG status check would be good, havent heard from anyone on that list in a long time
should this discussion take place there?

look forward

P



On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 9:57 AM, adasal <adam.saltiel <at> gmail.com> wrote:
Is this an exercise in who is using these technologies now?
A broader exercise would allow the fleshing out of use cases in something like the following fashion:
  1. Identify an existing problem area in the existing system
  2. Identify candidate solutions including
    1. their strengths and weaknesses
    2. interoperability with other existing and anticipated sub-systems
  3. demonstrate the possibility of staged build out - i.e. a means by which costs can be controlled
Although a paper exercise I would be interested in contributing to this as best I am able.
I believe I have sufficient knowledge of the system I have previously mentioned - the BT system - to successfully identify at least some important and relevant areas.
I think this would be valuable as these suggestions are subject to scrutiny and feed back.
Problems that might be tackled are the relationship between asset management, upgrade or rewrite all and costs. I mention this because this seems the least likely to succumb to a semantic treatment.
Not because there are no efforts in this direction, there are, but large vendors (and perhaps smaller ones, I don't know) have specialisms in this area which are both complex and difficult to assess from the outside.
But any proposal for a major site improvement immediately raises the question of whether the existing site should be scrapped, up graded or worked around, that is bolted onto.
Proposals have to be made in the context of these three possibilities.
The very first stage might be to outline what is needed to clarify the decision between them.
This is an issue of 'where to begin'.
Does semantic technology have a role here, as opposed to positing itself as a future implementation goal (a must have) to solve other problems?
In other words, how down and dirty and detailed can semantic technologies usefully become?
I find this an interesting problem.

Best,
Adam



On 3 April 2010 08:42, Paola Di Maio <paola.dimaio <at> gmail.com> wrote:



I am not 100% sure that this would be relevant for all use cases, though. Semantic Web technologies are often used behind the scenes, so to say, as part of the back end (typical example is BT's use case).


yep sure - perhaps it may be useful to distinguish  these technologies into two groups for this purpose, those who reqire a gui and those who dont?

though even backend sw system components may benefit from better specified interfaces for the purpose
of facilitating integration with other systems

as I mentioned offlist to a replyt to Danny, it may be useful also having some metrics/parameters of what would be considered
a desirable success factor/adoption for a technology, to gauge the effectiveness of the results achieved
(is there any objective way to say if the sw is being realised or not, or to what extent and in any measureable way?)

anyway I do think its important to have a w3c focus on this, I have seen sw researchers and academics taking
the w3c guidlines and starndard very seriously and to the letter - some usability and interfaces design tied in the specs, as well as
some target metrics for deployments, can only help to make sure the whole picture is developed rather than just parts of it
even when the research emphasis is inherently elsewhere


Let me think a bit more about this

PDM




 
That is why I think you should look at them first.

Ivan


>
> 2. to make sure the interface satisfies the user requirement (as opposed to the user requirements as presupposed by the developer) a
> task analysis would be useful , this would have to be done by the authors of the case studies, in conjunction with users and some usability
> person (developers are generally not good at seeing the system from the user perspective)
>
> http://www.usabilitynet.org/tools/taskanalysis.htm
>
>
> 3. to issue guidelines for researchers to make sure use requirements,  usability standards and suitable interfaces should be prioritized
> and developed in parallel with other aspects of the 'infrastructure'
>
> 4. I am sure I dont have to say this, but users should be found among a wider and heterogeneous stakholder pool, so it would be a question
> of the respective researchers to establish a network of stakeholders and users among their target communities referred to in the repsective case studies
>
>
> Happy to contribute to this side of the sw effort if I can, a DERI MSc student contacted me offliest may be able to
> help lead this effort, will ping you her details separately
>
>
> PDM
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 5:16 AM, Ivan Herman <ivan <at> w3.org> wrote:
> Additionally to Nodalities...
>
> A fairly long time ago we started a collection of SW Use Cases and Case Studies at W3C:
>
> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/sweo/public/UseCases/
>
> the goal was to collect real SW deployment examples in industry and academia (ie, not reports on university projects). It is not perfect, it is not complete, but it is a start. W3C decided _not_ to 'edit' those entries but, with minor modifications, take what is out there which also explains the different style and, frankly, quality of the submissions.
>
> It is true that, in the last year, the number of submissions slowed down which may be my fault; I do chase applications but it is difficult to get people do the extra mile to write things down and sometimes I give up. But improving, enriching, etc, this collection would be good and any help would be greatly welcome....
>
> Ivan
>
>
> On Apr 1, 2010, at 03:25 , Ian Davis wrote:
>
> > On Tuesday, March 30, 2010, Karl Dubost <karl+w3c <at> la-grange.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> Danny has been one of the most convincing evangelist for years. We need more.
> >> ACTION: Tell a story to people.
> >>
> >
> > We (Talis) are doing this with Nodalities magazine, blogs and
> > podcasts, reaching out beyond the technologists. If you have stories
> > we want to help you get them known - free distribution for your ideas,
> > software, products, services or whatever. The only cost is the time it
> > takes you to write a couple of pages or to chat to us over skype. Just
> > email us at nodalities-magazine <at> talis.com
> >
> > Remember no-one on this mailing list is a target for evangelism: we're
> > all convinced already! None of us are really target users for this
> > stuff either because we're much more interested in the architecture
> > and technology. We need to share stories and evangelise much wider to
> > the people who decide what technologies their organisations should
> > invest in.
> >
> > Ian
> >
>
>
> ----
> Ivan Herman, W3C Semantic Web Activity Lead
> Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
> mobile: +31-641044153
> PGP Key: http://www.ivan-herman.net/pgpkey.html
> FOAF: http://www.ivan-herman.net/foaf.rdf
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Paola Di Maio
> **************************************************
> “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
> Albert Einstein
> **************************************************
>


----
Ivan Herman, W3C Semantic Web Activity Lead
Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
mobile: +31-641044153
PGP Key: http://www.ivan-herman.net/pgpkey.html
FOAF: http://www.ivan-herman.net/foaf.rdf








--
Paola Di Maio
**************************************************
“Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
Albert Einstein
**************************************************





--
Paola Di Maio
**************************************************
“Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
Albert Einstein
**************************************************

Danny Ayers | 1 Apr 21:32 2010
Picon

Re: call to arms

On 1 April 2010 03:25, Ian Davis <me <at> iandavis.com> wrote:

> We (Talis) are doing this with Nodalities magazine,

As far as I've seen, the best magazine (online & in print) available
on the topic:
http://www.talis.com/nodalities/

> Remember no-one on this mailing list is a target for evangelism: we're
> all convinced already!

Not necessarily true - people dip their toes in waters into which they
might not be jumping.
But also yeah, I agree, preaching to the converted is diminishing returns.

None of us are really target users for this
> stuff either because we're much more interested in the architecture
> and technology.

There I strongly disagree - I personally really, really want this tech
to improve my own life (like Wikipedia has achieved compared to going
to the library to check on a worrying medical fact :). Connolly's Bane
etc. Second comes the fascination.

We need to share stories and evangelise much wider to
> the people who decide what technologies their organisations should
> invest in.

There I agree 100%

Cheers,
Danny.

--

-- 
http://danny.ayers.name

Danny Ayers | 1 Apr 20:47 2010
Picon

Re: call to arms

On 30 March 2010 01:21, Karl Dubost <karl+w3c <at> la-grange.net> wrote:

> Danny has been one of the most convincing evangelist for years. We need more.

I can't let such flattery go to waste.

> ACTION: Tell a story to people.

Yup. But a *real* story - where are they?

I suspect I have been responsible for giving one or two (ready and
willing) geeks a gentle shove in this direction, but only really
through technical merits. Nothing really about how it could make
everyone's lives better. We need more hearts than minds.

Cheers,
Danny.

--

-- 
http://danny.ayers.name

Dan Brickley | 1 Apr 21:35 2010

Re: call to arms

On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 8:47 PM, Danny Ayers <danny.ayers <at> gmail.com> wrote:
> On 30 March 2010 01:21, Karl Dubost <karl+w3c <at> la-grange.net> wrote:
>
>> Danny has been one of the most convincing evangelist for years. We need more.
>
> I can't let such flattery go to waste.
>
>> ACTION: Tell a story to people.
>
> Yup. But a *real* story - where are they?

There are lots of kinds of story. We have lots of positive ones to
tell, but especially amongst ourselves we need to tell a few 'well, I
tried it but it didn't work too fine in this context' stories. Part of
having the technology mature is finding a niche, and figuring out the
areas in which it doesn't really flourish. In
http://www.slideshare.net/danbri/when-presentation-849447 I was urging
that we dig a bit more carefully into these various situations where
people have tried RDF and backed away. Examples I touched on there
were Mozilla, Joost and Dopplr, cases where initial enthusiasm fizzled
for various reasons. Maybe I'm being too downbeat, but it's just a
form of impatience because many of the things I want to build / do
will be much more fun when this infrastructure is more mature, and I'm
fed up with waiting. We're getting there :)

cheers,

Dan

Danny Ayers | 1 Apr 21:48 2010
Picon

Re: call to arms

Ok, take a person from say 1980, tell them what the Web is about, ask
them what they want from it.

Transport them to 2010. I suspect they would be disappointed on
certain fronts, but pretty happy with one or two things, most likely
awesomised in general.

Now take a person from 2000 and transport them to the year 2030. They
by now know a fair bit about what the Web is about, but...the Web
might have changed.

What do you reckon at this rate?

If we can't awesomise the next generation, surely we're doing the
previous a disservice?

On 1 April 2010 21:35, Dan Brickley <danbri <at> danbri.org> wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 8:47 PM, Danny Ayers <danny.ayers <at> gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 30 March 2010 01:21, Karl Dubost <karl+w3c <at> la-grange.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Danny has been one of the most convincing evangelist for years. We need more.
>>
>> I can't let such flattery go to waste.
>>
>>> ACTION: Tell a story to people.
>>
>> Yup. But a *real* story - where are they?
>
> There are lots of kinds of story. We have lots of positive ones to
> tell, but especially amongst ourselves we need to tell a few 'well, I
> tried it but it didn't work too fine in this context' stories. Part of
> having the technology mature is finding a niche, and figuring out the
> areas in which it doesn't really flourish. In
> http://www.slideshare.net/danbri/when-presentation-849447 I was urging
> that we dig a bit more carefully into these various situations where
> people have tried RDF and backed away. Examples I touched on there
> were Mozilla, Joost and Dopplr, cases where initial enthusiasm fizzled
> for various reasons. Maybe I'm being too downbeat, but it's just a
> form of impatience because many of the things I want to build / do
> will be much more fun when this infrastructure is more mature, and I'm
> fed up with waiting. We're getting there :)
>
> cheers,
>
> Dan
>

--

-- 
http://danny.ayers.name

Dan Brickley | 1 Apr 21:55 2010

Re: call to arms

On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 9:48 PM, Danny Ayers <danny.ayers <at> gmail.com> wrote:
> Ok, take a person from say 1980, tell them what the Web is about, ask
> them what they want from it.
>
> Transport them to 2010. I suspect they would be disappointed on
> certain fronts, but pretty happy with one or two things, most likely
> awesomised in general.
>
> Now take a person from 2000 and transport them to the year 2030. They
> by now know a fair bit about what the Web is about, but...the Web
> might have changed.
>
> What do you reckon at this rate?
>
> If we can't awesomise the next generation, surely we're doing the
> previous a disservice?

Ok, If we're going in this direction I suggest everyone watch this
great documentary from Douglas Adams. It precedes the Web by a few
months, anticipates it in many ways...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7190175107515525470#
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperland

I think the big question it raises, and what I'm largely working on
these days, is why has all this hypertext / linkyness not affected
televison very much yet?

Dan

Karl Dubost | 2 Apr 03:18 2010
Picon

Re: call to arms


Le 1 avr. 2010 à 15:55, Dan Brickley a écrit :
> I think the big question it raises, and what I'm largely working on
> these days, is why has all this hypertext / linkyness not affected
> televison very much yet?

It is killing it. Look at advertisement budgets for TV in western countries.
YouTube is becoming full of links.

For hyperlinking in video.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=fooooooo#t=0m42s
to link the video at 42s anchor.

See this too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzEvcS01Cl0

--

-- 
Karl Dubost
Montréal, QC, Canada
http://www.la-grange.net/karl/

Danny Ayers | 2 Apr 04:47 2010
Picon

Re: call to arms

On 2 April 2010 03:18, Karl Dubost <karl+w3c <at> la-grange.net> wrote:
>
> Le 1 avr. 2010 à 15:55, Dan Brickley a écrit :
>> I think the big question it raises, and what I'm largely working on
>> these days, is why has all this hypertext / linkyness not affected
>> televison very much yet?
>
>
> It is killing it. Look at advertisement budgets for TV in western countries.
> YouTube is becoming full of links.

Hope so.  ( http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=4M5YE_a4B1U )

tv & radio have the advantage of immediacy right now - ok, a news
story might break on twitter within seconds, but if it's a compelling
disaster you'll look to "old media" for the talkover and pictures.

"Oh the humanity" don't really work in txt.

Also it's a darn sight easier to be led to buy products.

--

-- 
http://danny.ayers.name

adasal | 2 Apr 13:34 2010
Picon

Re: call to arms

Hi,
This seems to be a fairly free ranging conversation.
This is my experience.
Two years ago I and a group of others were brought into Serco PLC, the company that handles the £35 mil +/year spend on businesslink on behalf of HMRC.
I was known to have a specific interest in Web 3.0 technologies.
Over the course of the last two years I and my colleagues discovered that Serco actually cannot sustain a technological vision of any sort, for instance not even in terms of the basics of managing upgrades and basic technology introduction.
Most of this original team of about sixteen have now left (as I have) or been made redundant.
With regard to Web 3.0 I was encouraged on a few occasions to work up proposals to form the basis for discussion.
On one occasion, about eighteen months ago, I was told by one of the architects, Andrew Booth, that Web 2.0 was irrelevant to their business model. I few months later I saw him reading a Butler report about Web 2.0. This illustrates the distance the encumbent technologists are from these issues.
My proposal was to wrap the existing site in a Web 3.0 enablement technology with the aim of expossing the underlying data for repurposing according to unforeseen needs of data consumers.
I was told I had no idea how expensive this would be and that I also had no idea of their strategy. Both these statements are true, the idea was to open up discussion. I do know that the strategy has been to use Akamai to speed access to online materials. Note that strategy does nothing to surface the information in those document. It implies no IR techniques as such. I know that no IR techniques are used aside from plain search, no automatic key term creation, categorisation, clustering or mapping between common search terms and specialised terms in the documents.
However, the most disappointing part of the technology implementation has been the introduction of something called skin and link in order to take users from the internal to externally hosted web sites (other government departments) because it embodies an Austin category confusion between data and information. Information is available from external sites, but no data is sent, stored, modified or returned from the external site available in the referring site. This is a sever design compromise, and does not fulfil some of the contractual KPIs to which the company are obligated.
There is clearly collusion between the customer HMRC, who seem not to have the will or the ability to enforce the contract, and the supplier in these matters.

The following are the broad points I have to make in this area, they overlap as both business and political issues.

  1. Web 3.0 could form the backbone to a solution that would solve many of the problems that their current architecture currently hides - the list is too long to enumerate here.
  2. Web 3.0 can be introduced in a staged and modular fashion, targeting specific pieces of functionality with Web 3.0 solutions.
  3. Web 3.0 is the technology needed to enable the data sharing and repurposing of that data by private add value organisations - a goal that seems to be that of this and any future government.
  4. Technology funded by the government should be exemplary and future facing, not hide enormous waste and the problems of future development and improvement.
This web site is of particular interest as it is an information rich site, and it is not really known how usage of that information might unfold in the future.
Of course I see this as a terrible missed opportunity. The contract is up for renewal, but it seems very unlikely that delivery mode will change.
This, it seems to me, is in a very broad way a semantic web failure.
I think this brief overview gives a good idea of why adoption is so difficult, and in many cases, impossible.

Best,

Adam Saltiel

On 2 April 2010 03:47, Danny Ayers <danny.ayers <at> gmail.com> wrote:
On 2 April 2010 03:18, Karl Dubost <karl+w3c <at> la-grange.net> wrote:
>
> Le 1 avr. 2010 à 15:55, Dan Brickley a écrit :
>> I think the big question it raises, and what I'm largely working on
>> these days, is why has all this hypertext / linkyness not affected
>> televison very much yet?
>
>
> It is killing it. Look at advertisement budgets for TV in western countries.
> YouTube is becoming full of links.

Hope so.  ( http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=4M5YE_a4B1U )

tv & radio have the advantage of immediacy right now - ok, a news
story might break on twitter within seconds, but if it's a compelling
disaster you'll look to "old media" for the talkover and pictures.

"Oh the humanity" don't really work in txt.

Also it's a darn sight easier to be led to buy products.



--
http://danny.ayers.name


Gunnar Aastrand Grimnes | 16 Apr 11:24 2010
Picon

Re: call to arms


> I think the big question it raises, and what I'm largely working on
> these days, is why has all this hypertext / linkyness not affected
> televison very much yet?

You might have seen this Dan, but it's happening (although slowly):

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ytech_gadg/20100413/tc_ytech_gadg/ytech_gadg_tc1598;_ylt=AthFBTG1PVCT2qb6.095JPYDW7oF;_ylu=X3oDMTJ1azdzMGpzBGFzc2V0A3l0ZWNoX2dhZGcvMjAxMDA0MTMveXRlY2hfZ2FkZ190YzE1OTgEcG9zAzIEc2VjA3luX2FydGljbGVfc3VtbWFyeV9saXN0BHNsawNuZWFybHk4MDAwMDA-

(great URL from yahoo there)

--

-- 
Gunnar Aastrand Grimnes
DFKI GmbH
http://www.dfki.uni-kl.de/~grimnes

adasal | 16 Apr 11:37 2010
Picon

Re: call to arms

Americans pay $130 month for cable?
That can't be right, why would anyone do that?

Isn't KDE based on Sesame, I can't remember which way round this went, I thought they used Virtuoso for a bit then reverted?
It never seems to work too well, it is one of the areas that shows that KDE is hugely experimental, and not for main stream adoption. People just don't have time. Meanwhile, the ideas in KDE propagate into other OSes gradually.

Adam

On 16 April 2010 10:24, Gunnar Aastrand Grimnes <gunnar.grimnes <at> dfki.de> wrote:

I think the big question it raises, and what I'm largely working on
these days, is why has all this hypertext / linkyness not affected
televison very much yet?

You might have seen this Dan, but it's happening (although slowly):

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ytech_gadg/20100413/tc_ytech_gadg/ytech_gadg_tc1598;_ylt=AthFBTG1PVCT2qb6.095JPYDW7oF;_ylu=X3oDMTJ1azdzMGpzBGFzc2V0A3l0ZWNoX2dhZGcvMjAxMDA0MTMveXRlY2hfZ2FkZ190YzE1OTgEcG9zAzIEc2VjA3luX2FydGljbGVfc3VtbWFyeV9saXN0BHNsawNuZWFybHk4MDAwMDA-

(great URL from yahoo there)



--
Gunnar Aastrand Grimnes
DFKI GmbH
http://www.dfki.uni-kl.de/~grimnes


Gunnar Aastrand Grimnes | 16 Apr 11:42 2010
Picon

Re: call to arms

On 16/04/10 11:37, adasal wrote:
> Americans pay $130 month for cable?
> That can't be right, why would anyone do that?
>
> Isn't KDE based on Sesame, I can't remember which way round this went, I
> thought they used Virtuoso for a bit then reverted?
> It never seems to work too well, it is one of the areas that shows that
> KDE is hugely experimental, and not for main stream adoption. People
> just don't have time. Meanwhile, the ideas in KDE propagate into other
> OSes gradually.

The RDF API is new for KDE (called Soprano), initially there were 
options to have redland as a backing store, but performance was awful. 
Then they introduced Sesame2 as an option, but being written in Java, it 
wasn't very popular. Also it's very memory hungry.

Now they are using a cut-down "desktop version" of virtuoso, and as far 
as I can tell, they are very happy.

It didn't work very well before, but it's continuously improving. It's 
also very ambitious.

KDE brings many coders that will build up best practises for making RDF 
work, UX issues with RDF, etc. Only good can come of this!

(disclaimer, I use gnome :)

- Gunnar

>
> Adam
>
> On 16 April 2010 10:24, Gunnar Aastrand Grimnes <gunnar.grimnes <at> dfki.de
> <mailto:gunnar.grimnes <at> dfki.de>> wrote:
>
>
>         I think the big question it raises, and what I'm largely working on
>         these days, is why has all this hypertext / linkyness not affected
>         televison very much yet?
>
>
>     You might have seen this Dan, but it's happening (although slowly):
>
>     http://news.yahoo.com/s/ytech_gadg/20100413/tc_ytech_gadg/ytech_gadg_tc1598;_ylt=AthFBTG1PVCT2qb6.095JPYDW7oF;_ylu=X3oDMTJ1azdzMGpzBGFzc2V0A3l0ZWNoX2dhZGcvMjAxMDA0MTMveXRlY2hfZ2FkZ190YzE1OTgEcG9zAzIEc2VjA3luX2FydGljbGVfc3VtbWFyeV9saXN0BHNsawNuZWFybHk4MDAwMDA-
>
>     (great URL from yahoo there)
>
>
>
>     --
>     Gunnar Aastrand Grimnes
>     DFKI GmbH
>     http://www.dfki.uni-kl.de/~grimnes
>     <http://www.dfki.uni-kl.de/%7Egrimnes>
>
>

--

-- 
Gunnar Aastrand Grimnes
DFKI GmbH
http://www.dfki.uni-kl.de/~grimnes

Damian Steer | 16 Apr 11:46 2010
Picon

Re: call to arms

On 16/04/10 10:42, Gunnar Aastrand Grimnes wrote:

> KDE brings many coders that will build up best practises for making RDF
> work, UX issues with RDF, etc. Only good can come of this!
>
> (disclaimer, I use gnome :)
>
> - Gunnar

Which also has sparql and an rdf database. Interesting post about it 
yesterday:

<http://mark.doffman.com/index.php/2010/04/15/tracker-rdf-database-performance/>

Damian

adasal | 16 Apr 11:47 2010
Picon

Re: call to arms

I use KDE!

On 16 April 2010 10:42, Gunnar Aastrand Grimnes <gunnar.grimnes <at> dfki.de> wrote:
On 16/04/10 11:37, adasal wrote:
Americans pay $130 month for cable?
That can't be right, why would anyone do that?

Isn't KDE based on Sesame, I can't remember which way round this went, I
thought they used Virtuoso for a bit then reverted?
It never seems to work too well, it is one of the areas that shows that
KDE is hugely experimental, and not for main stream adoption. People
just don't have time. Meanwhile, the ideas in KDE propagate into other
OSes gradually.

The RDF API is new for KDE (called Soprano), initially there were options to have redland as a backing store, but performance was awful. Then they introduced Sesame2 as an option, but being written in Java, it wasn't very popular. Also it's very memory hungry.

Now they are using a cut-down "desktop version" of virtuoso, and as far as I can tell, they are very happy.

It didn't work very well before, but it's continuously improving. It's also very ambitious.

KDE brings many coders that will build up best practises for making RDF work, UX issues with RDF, etc. Only good can come of this!

(disclaimer, I use gnome :)

- Gunnar


Adam

On 16 April 2010 10:24, Gunnar Aastrand Grimnes <gunnar.grimnes <at> dfki.de
<mailto:gunnar.grimnes <at> dfki.de>> wrote:


       I think the big question it raises, and what I'm largely working on
       these days, is why has all this hypertext / linkyness not affected
       televison very much yet?


   You might have seen this Dan, but it's happening (although slowly):

   http://news.yahoo.com/s/ytech_gadg/20100413/tc_ytech_gadg/ytech_gadg_tc1598;_ylt=AthFBTG1PVCT2qb6.095JPYDW7oF;_ylu=X3oDMTJ1azdzMGpzBGFzc2V0A3l0ZWNoX2dhZGcvMjAxMDA0MTMveXRlY2hfZ2FkZ190YzE1OTgEcG9zAzIEc2VjA3luX2FydGljbGVfc3VtbWFyeV9saXN0BHNsawNuZWFybHk4MDAwMDA-

   (great URL from yahoo there)



   --
   Gunnar Aastrand Grimnes
   DFKI GmbH
   http://www.dfki.uni-kl.de/~grimnes
   <http://www.dfki.uni-kl.de/%7Egrimnes>




--
Gunnar Aastrand Grimnes
DFKI GmbH
http://www.dfki.uni-kl.de/~grimnes

henry.story | 30 Mar 01:39 2010
Picon

Re: call to arms

On 30 Mar 2010, at 01:21, Karl Dubost wrote:
> 
> Le 29 mars 2010 à 15:39, Danny Ayers a écrit :
> The Semantic Web should be useful by now, by anyone's predictions.
> 
> 
> First take a look at:
> 
> http://linkeddata.org/
> http://semanticweb.org/wiki/Main_Page
> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/
> http://www.google.com/search?q=Semantic+Web
> http://www.google.com/search?q=linked+data
> 
> It is ugly :) hard core, difficult to look at

I completely agree, that we need to work on UI.

> Check any CSS Web gallery
> http://www.cssbeauty.com/archives/category/business/
> http://cssremix.com/
> 
> You might not like them, it might not suit some geeks tastes, but it matters for many people.
> 
> ACTION: Work with Web and UX designers

I'd love UX designers to work with me!

But that is unlikely to happen soon. So my strategy is to do the opposite:
take a web service that allready has excellent UX designers and:

  - add rdfa to the profile document
  - add a "create WebId" button
  - make it possible to logon to the site in one click

That should not be more than a few weeks work for any site that exists.

> Tools
> http://openid4.me/
> http://webid.myxwiki.org/
> 
> No way you will convice people with it :)

Everytime we add a new site, we convince more people. It is getting easier all the time.

My labor is free for the next 6months. What cool open source web service do you think would most benefit from
having foaf+ssl added on? 

> What is the narrative? What is the story around it?
> Look at these http://webdesignledger.com/inspiration/interface-design-loginsignup

We have a list here, that is being worked on

http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/UserStories

> 
> 
> ACTION: Package tools in a way which is seamless.
> 
> 
> Danny has been one of the most convincing evangelist for years. We need more. 
> ACTION: Tell a story to people.

Distributed social networks is the story. Owning your information. Being in charge ofyour life. Removing
big brother from your life. We don't have to live in 1984!

Henry Story
http://bblfish.net/

Peter Ansell | 30 Mar 02:06 2010
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Re: call to arms

On 30 March 2010 09:39,  <henry.story <at> bblfish.net> wrote:

> Distributed social networks is the story. Owning your information. Being in charge ofyour life.
Removing big brother from your life. We don't have to live in 1984!

It may be the story in some cultures, but some cultures are more
worried about how their associates share their information than
whether the government has access to it by law anyway. Centralised
social networking sites allow users to delegate access to their
information, even if the government can in the end get access to the
information when it needs to.

The ability for videos and pictures etc., to go viral on the internet
without any recourse at al, ever, by the people in the videos and
pictures due to the complex legal situation regarding the web and
access to the information is only helped by a distributed social
network that is based completely on computer understandable protocols.

I think the Semantic Web needs to focus on something other than
personal information as the killer application, because people simply
won't go for distributing their personal information to anyone
anywhere without prior authentication and future revocation that is
provided by a centralised authority. From what I can tell, FOAF+SSL
provides the personal information in a nice computer understandable
form, and one can never figure out which person leaked this
information(??) once a reference to it goes viral for purposes they do
not agree with.

BTW, distributed FOAF networks enable 1984 like never before!
Previously government intelligence departments had to manually piece
together networks, with FOAF/Semantic Web you are doing that part for
them, and they just focus on data cleaning to know everything about
what you have ever done. They will be overjoyed if people actually
agree to it.

Cheers,

Peter

Joe Presbrey | 30 Mar 09:43 2010
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Picon

Re: call to arms

On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 8:06 PM, Peter Ansell <ansell.peter <at> gmail.com> wrote:
> I think the Semantic Web needs to focus on something other than
> personal information as the killer application, because people simply
> won't go for distributing their personal information to anyone
> anywhere without prior authentication and future revocation that is
> provided by a centralised authority.

Of course FOAF is just served via HTTP which supports countless
authentication(authn) and authorization(authz) schemes.
Decentralization certainly does NOT preclude the user from using
user/agent authn/authz to protect any/all parts of their FOAF.

Now suppose RDF was served over some silly centralized infrastructure
like DNS...

$ dig foaf:knows <at> www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee/card#i.ns.rdfns.com txt
+short | grep mit
"<http://dig.csail.mit.edu/People/RRS>"
"<http://web.mit.edu/shinnyih/foaf.rdf#>"
"<http://dig.csail.mit.edu/People/yosi#YES>"
"<http://presbrey.mit.edu/foaf.rdf#presbrey>"
"<http://people.csail.mit.edu/lkagal/foaf#me>"
"<http://people.csail.mit.edu/psz/foaf.rdf#me>"
"<http://people.csail.mit.edu/ryanlee/about#ryanlee>"
"<http://web.mit.edu/ruthdhan/www/foaf.rdf#ruthdhan>"
"<http://people.csail.mit.edu/crowell/foaf.rdf#crowell>"
"<http://dig.csail.mit.edu/2007/wiki/people/JoeLambda#JL>"
"<http://dig.csail.mit.edu/2007/wiki/people/RobertHoffmann#RMH>"

Then I would have to agree with you that authorization could get a
little tricky!

I suppose now would be a good time to announce the world's first RDF
DNS nameserver, ns.rdfns.com. Best UI for the semantic web yet! :)

Best regards,
(on linux: dig foaf:name <at> presbrey.mit.edu/foaf#presbrey.ns.rdfns.com txt +short)
(on windows: nslookup -type=txt
foaf:name <at> presbrey.mit.edu/foaf#presbrey.ns.rdfns.com)
=> "Joe Presbrey"

Henry Story | 30 Mar 10:07 2010
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Re: call to arms


On 30 Mar 2010, at 09:43, Joe Presbrey wrote:

> dig foaf:knows <at> www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee/card#i.ns.rdfns.com txt
> +short

That's funny. 

I tried it and get 

$ dig foaf:knows <at> www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee/card#i.ns.rdfns.com txt +short
;; Warning: Message parser reports malformed message packet.
;; Truncated, retrying in TCP mode.
;; Connection to 192.168.1.1#53(192.168.1.1) for
foaf:knows <at> www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee/card#i.ns.rdfns.com failed: connection refused.

Joe Presbrey | 30 Mar 10:19 2010
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Re: call to arms

I'm still working towards complete compatibility. Various DNS
caches/recursors around the net have different specs about what
characters and sizes they'll accept.

1) try direct to the server:
$ dig foaf:knows <at> www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee/card#i.ns.rdfns.com txt
+short  <at> rdfns.com
2) try direct to Google DNS:
$ dig foaf:knows <at> www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee/card#i.ns.rdfns.com txt
+short  <at> 8.8.8.8
3) try URL encoding stuff:
$ dig foaf%3Aknows.www%2Ew3%2Eorg%2FPeople%2FBerners-Lee%2Fcard%23i.ns.rdfns.com
 txt +short
4) try a query with a smaller payload like OpenID:
$ dig foaf:openid <at> www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee/card#i.ns.rdfns.com txt +short
"<http://www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee/>"

--
Joe Presbrey

On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 4:07 AM, Henry Story <henry.story <at> gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 30 Mar 2010, at 09:43, Joe Presbrey wrote:
>
>> dig foaf:knows <at> www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee/card#i.ns.rdfns.com txt
>> +short
>
> That's funny.
>
> I tried it and get
>
> $ dig foaf:knows <at> www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee/card#i.ns.rdfns.com txt +short
> ;; Warning: Message parser reports malformed message packet.
> ;; Truncated, retrying in TCP mode.
> ;; Connection to 192.168.1.1#53(192.168.1.1) for
foaf:knows <at> www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee/card#i.ns.rdfns.com failed: connection refused.
>

Karl Dubost | 30 Mar 05:26 2010
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Re: call to arms


Le 29 mars 2010 à 19:39, henry.story <at> bblfish.net a écrit :
> I'd love UX designers to work with me!

:)

> But that is unlikely to happen soon.

tss tss ;)
Are you interested by having foaf+ssl looking better?
If efforts are put into a design, will you put it in place?

> So my strategy is to do the opposite:
> take a web service that allready has excellent UX designers and:
> 
>  - add rdfa to the profile document
>  - add a "create WebId" button
>  - make it possible to logon to the site in one click

+1000 but that means that we have been able to convince people with sexy web sites ;)
And without good looking materials, we're back at the start.

Good looking Web sites are not only for Mr/Ms Smith.

> Everytime we add a new site, we convince more people. It is getting easier all the time.

agreed.

> My labor is free for the next 6months. What cool open source web service do you think would most benefit from
having foaf+ssl added on? 

Maybe you should try to propose something to Mozilla Labs and/or Drumbeat Projects
http://www.drumbeat.org/
https://mozillalabs.com/

Does it have to be opensource only?

> Distributed social networks is the story. Owning your information. Being in charge ofyour life.
Removing big brother from your life. We don't have to live in 1984!

Though we do not live that much in 1984.
It is a lot more like The Brave New World.
http://www.recombinantrecords.net/docs/2009-05-Amusing-Ourselves-to-Death.html
Which is even scarier.

ps: btw, I'm always amazed (in a good way) at the will and dynamism of the Linked Data/Semantic Web
community. 

--

-- 
Karl Dubost
Montréal, QC, Canada
http://www.la-grange.net/karl/

Karl Dubost | 31 Mar 00:54 2010
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Re: call to arms


Le 29 mars 2010 à 19:39, henry.story <at> bblfish.net a écrit :
> But that is unlikely to happen soon. So my strategy is to do the opposite:
> take a web service that allready has excellent UX designers and:
> 
>  - add rdfa to the profile document
>  - add a "create WebId" button
>  - make it possible to logon to the site in one click

One site which does online persona/business card.
http://flavors.me/

(discovered a few minutes ago)

--

-- 
Karl Dubost
Montréal, QC, Canada
http://www.la-grange.net/karl/

Bernard Vatant | 31 Mar 10:27 2010

Re: call to arms

Hi all

Somewhere in this thread Karl wrote

ACTION : Tell a story

I tried to start one here
http://blog.hubjects.com/2010/03/societas-hominum-et-societas-rerum.html

For what it's worth

Bernard

--
Bernard Vatant
Senior Consultant
Vocabulary & Data Engineering
Tel:       +33 (0) 971 488 459
Mail:     bernard.vatant <at> mondeca.com
----------------------------------------------------
Mondeca
3, cité Nollez 75018 Paris France
Web:    http://www.mondeca.com
Blog:    http://mondeca.wordpress.com
----------------------------------------------------

henry.story | 30 Mar 07:00 2010
Picon

Re: call to arms

> On 30 Mar 2010, at 01:52, Peter Ansell wrote:
>> 
>> On 30 March 2010 08:50, Melvin Carvalho <melvincarvalho <at> gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> 2010/3/30 Paola Di Maio <paola.dimaio <at> gmail.com>
>>> Melvin
>>> 
>>> you provide a nice list, but I have the impression most people find it
>>> ..... not fun?
>>> 
>>> I think you can achieve most of what you say below with less complexity
>>> using more intuitive systems (say open ID)
>> 
>> Dont get me wrong I'm a big fan of OpenID, but it was the complexity of
>> OpenID that lead me to FOAF+SSL.  With openid you need a server that can
>> provide and verify your identity.  With FOAF+SSL you just need one click to
>> make your browser into your own identity provider.  FOAF also has the
>> wonderful side-effect that once you've got the ID, you've got all the
>> friends and other information there, for free.
>  
>  The idea of the technology sounds interesting, as long as users can
> securely login from anywhere in the world as they can now. Can't go
> back to the bad old days where logins were restricted to particular
> workstations.

That is the world we are living in now. Passwords are limited to particular
services. 60% of break ins and security breaches are due to passwords. In 
an interview Dan Kaminsky said last year:

[[
Kaminsky: DNSSEC is interesting not because it fixes DNS. DNSSEC is interesting
because it allows us to start addressing core problems we have on the Internet
in a systematic and scalable way. The reality is: Trust is not selling across
organizational boundaries. We have lots and lots systems that allow companies to
authenticate their own people, manage and monitor their own people and interact
with their own people. In a world where companies only deal with themselves,
that's great. We don't live in that world and we haven't for many years.

Q: How does DNSSEC help fix that?

Kaminsky: One of the fascinating elements of the Verizon Data Breach
Investigations Report is that if there was a hack, 40% of the time it was an
implementation flaw, and 60% of the time it was an authentication flaw --
something happened with authentication credentials and everything blew up. At
the end day, why do we use passwords? It's the only authentication technology
that we have that even remotely works across organizational boundaries, and the
only thing that scales today. Our existing ways of doing trust across
organizational boundaries don't work. Passwords are failures; certificates that
were supposed to replace passwords are not working -- period, end of discussion.

DNS has been doing cross-organizational address management for 25 years; it
works great. DNS is the world's largest PKI without the 'K.'All DNSSEC does is
add keys. It takes this system that scales wonderfully and has been a success
for 25 years, and says our trust problems are cross-organizational, and takes
best technology on the Internet for cross-organizational operations and gives it
trust. And if we do this right, we'll see every single company with new products
and services around the fact that there's one trusted root, and one trusted
delegating proven system doing security across organizational boundaries.
]] http://bit.ly/19P188

DNSSEC helps give us trust in DNS. 

Most important in the quote above is the importance of cross organisational
boundaries.

As you will see below Dan, in his critique of Certificates missed foaf+ssl

> 
> Overall though, Distributed identity isn't a killer application, as
> proven by OpenID, 

OpenId fails because 
  - it only does authentication (attribute exchange is very poor)
  - it still requires the user to type in a username ( URL )
  - it requires a 3rd service
  - implementation wise it is more complex than needed
  - It is not RESTful - so it does not play that well with linked data

Most importantly because it is not well architected it fails to play well
with linked data. That is it cannot tie into distributed social networks.

> and distributed social networking may not be as
> necessary as one might think, per the enormous popularity of *the*
> widely used social network, Facebook (outranking Google in terms of
> web traffic), especially given the demise of Google Wave, which was
> intended to be a distributed social network but failed miserably.

( Google Wave's distribution seems to me more of a marketing thing. )

Distributed social networks are extreemly important for businesses, 
for governments, armys, helath organisations, which are all social 
networks. They can't all be on Facebook.

> People like to keep different parts of their life separate, 

You can have any number of WebIds. I have
 - http://bblfish.net/#hjs
 - http://webid.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/XWiki/hjs

They don't need to be linked

> and may
> not appreciate that every website may be retrieving their identity
> without their knowledge. Privacy is non-existent if people don't have
> a chance to view, understand, and authorise privacy policies, and with
> FOAF, associates have no way of accepting the agreement themselves
> before their information is obtained by the server if it automatically
> decides to retrieve and store their personal information based on a
> link in a FOAF file. 

Good to hear you put this misconception so clearly in writing.
The point of foaf+ssl is that it makes access control possible. It is
designed exactly to solve the above problem: to allow some users to see
some part of your profile, and others to see others.

>For all its faults, Facebook is in a position to
> let users restrict where their personal information goes, where this
> authority won't be available in a distributed network.

Exactly what foaf+ssl permits. To make this clear we need enough people
with WebIds to allow them to see this.

> 
> There are still many questions overall though:
> 
> Does FOAF+SSL require users to stick to a particular computer? 

No. Try http://webid.myxwiki.org/ and get yourself a public key for
each browser on as many computers as you wish.

> Is it useful and safe for private use on public or company computers?

Yes. For public computers you can create yourself a time limited key.
Of course if you are going to use a public computer you are no longer serious
about security.

It could be made safe enough on company computers by giving people USB
sticks with their crypto card, and the private key on a read only 
partition as some European governments are starting to hand out to their
citizens.

> 
> My previous impressions of relying on user certificates is that they
> were just relying on users passwords on their personal computers to
> unlock their certificates to avoid using passwords on websites.

You can also put them on external devices, and if you wanted those could be
fingerprint protected.

> 
> How is it any more structurally safe to deploy your private key on a
> public or company computer in order to work with these services than
> to restrict logins to passwords that users do not have to deploy onto
> a computer other than to type it in?

People who use logins with passwords tend to use very similar ones on all
web sites they use. Many of those sites do not encrypt the communication
channel (FB for example) and are full of viruses (Myspace for example)
One of those sites needs to be compromised and the user looses his password.

Username/passwords do not tie together global identities, so they are not much
use for having cross organisational networks. Most of the people do not work
at your company!

> 
> Would it require users to personally carry their private key around?

Not necessarily. They could have one for each computer. Try the myxwiki
example.

> What happens if they lose their private key? Locked out permanently?

No they can go to their web server and change their private key.
If they keep their web server in their basement that should be easy.

> Will users need more than one private key if the technology is widely
> used? How does one retract permission for a private key if it is
> compromised? 

You remove the public key from your foaf file.
That can be a one click operation with a clever web server, 
or you could do it with vi by editing an html file.

>If companies require users to regularly rotate their
> private key as they do with passwords if FOAF+SSL becomes popular with
> companies, will this destroy the whole system?

No, see above.
Certificates have expiration dates.

> 
> For all of the complexity of OpenID at least it allows users to choose
> how they are going to authenticate with their identity provider, and
> hence does not require them to know about all of the security issues
> around the use of a private key if the identity provider does not
> require them to know that.

Openid has security problems too. I wonder if that's related?
Public key crypto is the only seure method known.

But it is not that difficult to use. 
> 
> Are private keys are going to be stored on a server somewhere to avoid
> the issue of having users manage their certificates as they are never
> going to be widely trained in the protocols of how to do this anyway.

Try http://webid.myxwiki.org/ - you will see how easy it is to create a
private/public key pair. Clicking a Google Search button could be 
more difficult. Don't see Google having trouble with training the millions
of people using them every second.

> If that is the case then why do we need to depart from OpenID as the
> currently known, if not highly used, method of distributed
> authentication? 

Foaf+ssl and openid fit together like a glove. Go to http://webid.myxwiki.org/
By creating yourself a public key you get an OpenId for free.

> How do users authenticate with the place that the
> certificate is stored when they want to retrieve it? Passwords? Ie,
> the insecure method that FOAF+SSL is trying to remove?

There may be only one place you may need passwords on, and that is your
own server. But you could have that send you a one time password via your
phone. Or you could restrict access in other ways.

> 
> Not sure if the answers to these questions are widely known but I
> haven't been able to answer conclusively them looking through the few
> documents that relate to this very new technology.

I think we should add this email to the FAQ list. :-) I get asked exactly
those questions every time I talk. Which is making me think that Plato was
right: the world of ideas is real, as real as the physical world, and to
get from A to B in a particular geography one has to follow a certain path.
Everybody follows the path you have just followed....

> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Peter
> 
> 

henry.story | 30 Mar 07:22 2010
Picon

Re: call to arms

> On 30 Mar 2010, at 05:26, Karl Dubost wrote:
> 
> Le 29 mars 2010 à 19:39, henry.story <at> bblfish.net a écrit :
>>
>> So my strategy is to do the opposite:
>> take a web service that allready has excellent UX designers and:
>> 
>> - add rdfa to the profile document
>> - add a "create WebId" button
>> - make it possible to logon to the site in one click
>> 
> +1000 but that means that we have been able to convince people with 
> sexy web sites ;)
> And without good looking materials, we're back at the start.
> 
> Good looking Web sites are not only for Mr/Ms Smith.
> 
>> Everytime we add a new site, we convince more people. It is getting 
>> easier all the time.
> 
> agreed.
> 
>> My labor is free for the next 6months. 
>> What cool open source web service do you think would most benefit from having foaf+ssl added on? 
> 
> Maybe you should try to propose something to Mozilla Labs and/or Drumbeat Projects
> http://www.drumbeat.org/
> https://mozillalabs.com/

Good idea. But I am not the only one. FOAF+SSL is open source, and we have
code for java, perl, python, and php, and c. It is not that difficult to
implement, so others here can help along too.

> Does it have to be opensource only?

I only work free for open source. Proprietary would be very expensive.

>> Distributed social networks is the story. Owning your information. 
>> Being in charge ofyour life. Removing big brother from your life. 
>> We don't have to live in 1984!
> 
> Though we do not live that much in 1984.

People like to ignore what is painful. The more you look the more weird
things you find. For example this story:

"School laptop spy case prompts Wiretap Act rethink" http://bit.ly/dpXXs4 
The school did video surveillance using the laptop camera of the pupils!

> It is a lot more like The Brave New World.
> http://www.recombinantrecords.net/docs/2009-05-Amusing-Ourselves-to-Death.html
> Which is even scarier.

A mix of the two perhaps. 
> 
> ps: btw, I'm always amazed (in a good way) at the will and dynamism of the Linked Data/Semantic Web
community. 
> 
> -- 
> Karl Dubost
> Montréal, QC, Canada
> http://www.la-grange.net/karl/
> 
> 

Graham Klyne | 30 Mar 13:03 2010

Re: call to arms

Are we really mired?  I'm not sure I'd agree.

The semantic web and web of data succeed when they are invisible, as possibly 
suggested by "Connoly's bane":
[[
The bane of my existence is doing things that I know the computer could do for me.
]]
-- http://www.nature.com/nature/webmatters/xml/xml.html

What people notice, where we are mired, is in my view all those places where the 
Semantic Web has not yet reached.  Which, granted, is still most aspects of 
information handling.  But I also think a good deal of progress has been made. 
It's not always called "Semantic Web" or "Web of Data", but there are 
increasingly ways in which information can flow between applications.

So if we judge success by the new things that we can do, then I suspect this 
sense of mire will be with us for some time.  But if our touchstone is the old 
tedious things we no longer have to do, then a different perspective is offered. 
  Trouble is, work is a gas (*) and expands to fill available capacity ... I 
think an awful lot of the old things have to go away before "ordinary people" 
really start to notice.

So, yes, there's still a lot to do.  But I sense (as a pure intuition, with no 
defensible evidence to hand) that we are close to a cusp, where there is enough 
background tooling and infrastructure for the pace of change to start picking 
up.  But it may yet be a while before the effects of that change to become 
generally visible.

#g
--

(*) a riff on Nathan Mhyrvold's comments about software, as well as Parkinson's 
law -- http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2006/09/software-its-a-gas.html

Danny Ayers wrote:
> Right now, despite the promise, things seem mired in the mud. People
> aren't seeing the things that the Web of Data has proposed.
> 
> How do we get over this?
> 
> Face to face maybe - the bits the interwebs can't provide.
> 
> I suggest the leading lights of this sturm sit down in a room
> somewhere in northern Europe, and hammer the damn thing down. It is so
> stupid for it to take so long.
> 
> The Internet, and the Web is excellent at providing miraculous stuff,
> but the humans that tie the things together seem to be disappearing
> into different worlds.
> 
> The Semantic Web should be useful by now, by anyone's predictions.
> 
> something better change
> 
> (I'm a scaredy pacifist, so don't take that to heart)
> 

Danny Ayers | 1 Apr 21:08 2010
Picon

Re: call to arms

On 30 March 2010 13:03, Graham Klyne <GK-lists <at> ninebynine.org> wrote:
> Are we really mired?  I'm not sure I'd agree.
>
> The semantic web and web of data succeed when they are invisible, as
> possibly suggested by "Connoly's bane":
> [[
> The bane of my existence is doing things that I know the computer could do
> for me.
> ]]
> -- http://www.nature.com/nature/webmatters/xml/xml.html

Probably the most important quote from the last century, in my
opinion. Nutshell.

> What people notice, where we are mired, is in my view all those places where
> the Semantic Web has not yet reached.  Which, granted, is still most aspects
> of information handling.  But I also think a good deal of progress has been
> made. It's not always called "Semantic Web" or "Web of Data", but there are
> increasingly ways in which information can flow between applications.

True.

> So if we judge success by the new things that we can do, then I suspect this
> sense of mire will be with us for some time.  But if our touchstone is the
> old tedious things we no longer have to do, then a different perspective is
> offered.  Trouble is, work is a gas (*) and expands to fill available
> capacity ... I think an awful lot of the old things have to go away before
> "ordinary people" really start to notice.

Some people see a glass half full of water, others see a glass half full of gas.

Sorry Graham.

 (damn, hope that hasn't been said before!)

Manos Batsis | 30 Mar 15:13 2010

Re: call to arms

Danny Ayers wrote:
> The Internet, and the Web is excellent at providing miraculous stuff,
> but the humans that tie the things together seem to be disappearing
> into different worlds.

This is a main issue IMHO. People like me that have interest on semweb 
but no capacity to maintain connections with the state of the art and 
the people around it, have little fertile ground to grow ideas upon.

We can pass rough notes around to get feedback and validation but we 
usually get back into our every day development efforts after a while ;-)

Kindest regards,

Manos


Gmane