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David Gerard | 9 Jul 2012 15:37

Re: NPG legal threat against Dcoetzee (was: "Moving forwards")

On 9 July 2012 14:08, Béria Lima <berialima <at> gmail.com> wrote:

> Talking about that: What happened to the case? Someone has any info about
> it?

AIUI the state of play is: the EFF wrote back saying "your copyright
claim is invalid, come on if you think you're hard enough", the images
are still up, and NPG and WMF are still on speaking terms. NPG have
occasionally made quiet noises asserting the copyright, but are
observably *extremely reluctant* to actually push their big noisy
legal threat one millimetre further.

This is what I mean when I say that the claim of such copyrights
existing is really extremely insubstantial, and that if Adam wishes to
make such a claim stick he really would have to push it all the way
through the courts, and that shouting abuse at people on a mailing
list really just doesn't cut it.

- d.

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Thomas Morton | 9 Jul 2012 15:42

Re: NPG legal threat against Dcoetzee (was: "Moving forwards")

On 9 July 2012 14:37, David Gerard <dgerard <at> gmail.com> wrote:

On 9 July 2012 14:08, Béria Lima <berialima-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:

> Talking about that: What happened to the case? Someone has any info about
> it?

AIUI the state of play is: the EFF wrote back saying "your copyright
claim is invalid, come on if you think you're hard enough", the images
are still up, and NPG and WMF are still on speaking terms. NPG have
occasionally made quiet noises asserting the copyright, but are
observably *extremely reluctant* to actually push their big noisy
legal threat one millimetre further.

This is what I mean when I say that the claim of such copyrights
existing is really extremely insubstantial, and that if Adam wishes to
make such a claim stick he really would have to push it all the way
through the courts, and that shouting abuse at people on a mailing
list really just doesn't cut it.

It was always my understanding that the issue in that case was the lack of creative work required in the reproduction; i.e. a straight on photo of a 2D medium. (I think they also did some touching up?? but nothing major).

Comparatively, some of Adam's work exhibits a much greater level of skill and creativity in reconstructing damaged images.

I'd say that the NPG's inability to demonstrate requisite creativity to claim "sweat of the brow" doesn't outright undermine Adam's situation.

Regardless; why are we being such dicks? As diametrically opposed to copyright as some of us are, it genuinely doesn't hurt anyone for those works to be tagged CC-BY-SA. They can still be reused widely, Adam gets credit for his hard work, and everyone is happy.

This smacks of cutting off our noses to spite our faces, all on principle...

It also undermines many of our strong points about copyright laws/reform.

Tom

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David Gerard | 9 Jul 2012 15:46

Re: NPG legal threat against Dcoetzee (was: "Moving forwards")

On 9 July 2012 14:42, Thomas Morton <morton.thomas@...> wrote:

> Regardless; why are we being such dicks? As diametrically opposed to
> copyright as some of us are, it genuinely doesn't hurt anyone for those
> works to be tagged CC-BY-SA. They can still be reused widely, Adam gets
> credit for his hard work, and everyone is happy.

Someone proposed such a tag on Commons for the NPG images (PD in US,
CC-by or whatever elsewhere), and supporters happened to include me
and DCoetzee, but quite a lot of people strenuously objected. (I don't
have a link to hand.) But I'm sure Adam's diplomatic skills will
convince people the proposal should be resurrected.

- d.

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Béria Lima | 9 Jul 2012 16:52

Re: NPG legal threat against Dcoetzee (was: "Moving forwards")

I do believe that Adam's work is enough for him to have some credit for it. If any of us edit an image, we do receive the credit (there is even a template for it: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template:Retouched_picture ). So, why so much trouble to credit him? Can't we do like we do with multiple licensed pictures (for example: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Redwikiheart-10,8M-heartonly.png )?
_____
Béria Lima

Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. Ajude-nos a construir esse sonho.

On 9 July 2012 10:46, David Gerard <dgerard-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:

On 9 July 2012 14:42, Thomas Morton <morton.thomas-gM/Ye1E23mwN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> wrote:

> Regardless; why are we being such dicks? As diametrically opposed to
> copyright as some of us are, it genuinely doesn't hurt anyone for those
> works to be tagged CC-BY-SA. They can still be reused widely, Adam gets
> credit for his hard work, and everyone is happy.

Someone proposed such a tag on Commons for the NPG images (PD in US,
CC-by or whatever elsewhere), and supporters happened to include me
and DCoetzee, but quite a lot of people strenuously objected. (I don't
have a link to hand.) But I'm sure Adam's diplomatic skills will
convince people the proposal should be resurrected.

- d.

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Cary Bass | 9 Jul 2012 21:56

Re: NPG legal threat against Dcoetzee (was: "Moving forwards")

On 7/9/2012 7:52 AM, Béria Lima wrote:

I do believe that Adam's work is enough for him to have some credit for it. If any of us edit an image, we do receive the credit (there is even a template for it: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template:Retouched_picture ). So, why so much trouble to credit him? Can't we do like we do with multiple licensed pictures (for example: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Redwikiheart-10,8M-heartonly.png )?

I don't at all dispute that. I think that Commons should put some sort of credit on it, and likewise I see a strong argument for creating a reuse license on such images. I think Adam should be credited for his work and effort should be made as to seeing how that can be enforced.

However, using a copyright license for reuse is not the way to do that. "Sweat of the brow" on its own cannot be legitimately defined as engendering a new creation. A restoration of an old creation is not a new creation. The better you restore it, the more like the original creation it is. Therefore a copyright claim on such a work is unenforceable, and makes Commons look like idiots.

- Cary

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David Gerard | 9 Jul 2012 22:39

Re: NPG legal threat against Dcoetzee (was: "Moving forwards")

On 9 July 2012 20:56, Cary Bass <bastique.ml@...> wrote:

> I don't at all dispute that. I think that Commons should put some sort of
> credit on it, and likewise I see a strong argument for creating a reuse
> license on such images. I think Adam should be credited for his work and
> effort should be made as to seeing how that can be enforced.

Absolutely, and it would be better if reusers credited restorers,
because that gives the correct provenance of an image. Adam absolutely
should be credited.

> However, using a copyright license for reuse is not the way to do that.
> "Sweat of the brow" on its own cannot be legitimately defined as engendering
> a new creation. A restoration of an old creation is not a new creation.  The
> better you restore it, the more like the original creation it is. Therefore
> a copyright claim on such a work is unenforceable, and makes Commons look
> like idiots.

And liars. For sweat of the brow to stick in such cases in the UK,
someone has to win a case.

- d.