Christophe Henner | 20 Nov 14:58

[EWW] Edit Wikipedia Week

Dear community,

Few days ago a pretty neat idea was proposed, an idea which could
involves all of the community members, all of you: the "Edit Wikipedia
Week". That week will take place from December 3 to 8, 2007 and the
concept is pretty simple: you, as a community member, will have the
chance to spread the word about how to edit Wikipedia or learn how to
work on one of the other sister projects. We want it to be a worldwide
event, and why not, transforming it into an annual event.

Everyone can be involved in helping to stage a bunch of "Edit
Wikipedia Week" events during that week. The idea is to stage outreach
events around the world designed to encourage people to participate in
the projects.

The events can be practically anything – big or small. It doesn't
matter how simple they seem to be, everything counts. You can talk
about the project at a local school; get yourself booked for a
television appearance; have a chat for a local photography club about
the advantages of contributing to Commons; organize a marathon weekend
for translations; discuss the different uses of the WikiPolicies to a
group of regular users you know in your place, recruit new people to
help you launch a WikiProject, or even just teach your mom how to
press a button, edit an article and save. Simple steps that will help
the world to know just what are we doing here, and why are we doing
it. Anything you think will improve the projects is valid: the idea is
to reach out to people who don't edit, or have no idea what Wikipedia
is, and encourage them to contribute on the project.

Edit Wikipedia Week is intended to be an experiment. The premise is
(Continue reading)

Robert Rohde | 20 Nov 19:45

Re: [EWW] Edit Wikipedia Week

I'd encourage people be careful about the message here.  "Edit Wikipedia
Week" (abbreviated "EWW"?), sounds much like something Stephen Colbert might
come up with.  The goal is not to triple the number of elephants in Africa
[a bit of Colbert inspired vandalism], but rather to get more people
involved and teach good editting.

Most of the suggestions for activities do seem to have a reasonable focus,
but I think some of the backlash on this list is coming from people who
perceive this event as pushing editting solely for editting's sake, and yes
pushing editing can be destructive.  Instead, I think we would be better
served by thinking of this as a "Learn Wikipedia Week" or a "Teach Wikipedia
Week".  In other words, think of it as not simply getting more people to hit
the "edit" button, but more comprehensively as a effort to try and teach
productive editting skills to new users.

In addition to presentations, and the like, a bit of valuable preparation
might be to think about how people learn Wikipedia and spend time cleaning
up some of the introductory pages that new users first see.

-Robert Rohde
On Nov 20, 2007 5:58 AM, Christophe Henner <christophe.henner@...>
wrote:

> Dear community,
>
> Few days ago a pretty neat idea was proposed, an idea which could
> involves all of the community members, all of you: the "Edit Wikipedia
> Week". That week will take place from December 3 to 8, 2007 and the
> concept is pretty simple: you, as a community member, will have the
> chance to spread the word about how to edit Wikipedia or learn how to
(Continue reading)

Christiano Moreschi | 20 Nov 18:49
Favicon

Re: [EWW] Edit Wikipedia Week


This vulgar monstrosity got my blood boiling. Who the hell thought this one up? Clearly, not someone who
spends half their day fighting in the dirty, blood-bespattered trenches of the never-ending Wikipedia-wars.

Look, the plain fact is that we don't want more people adding their own junk to the English Wikipedia. Out of
the 2 million articles there, under 5000 have got any sort of quality control tag attached to them (FA, GA),
and even those often have very severe problems. 5000 out of 2 million? Is that anything to be proud of? The
rest? God help us. Even ostensibly decent-looking articles simply fall apart when any sort of critical
scrutiny is applied to them - the version of [[Johann Adolph Hasse]] copied over in whole from 1911
Britannica may have looked quite nice, but Christ only knows how many goddamned lies it contained until I
rewrote the thing from scratch. Same with [[Gluck]], which I'm currently having to do exactly the same
with. More seriously, poke around in the history of [[Russia]], a plausible-seeming piece of well-tuned
nonsense, cobbled together from an ultra-nationalist viewpoint from online encyclopaedias and
newspapers, that absolutely falls in on itself when even semi-expert eyes look at the beast. I could
easily cite perhaps a couple of million - quite literally - more examples of decent-looking Wikipedia
articles that are, in fact, absolute crap. Wikipedia, the encyclopaedia written by the rabble, isn't
working. Hell, I haven't even got on to the user conduct problems - trying to maintain control over enwiki
isn't a question of helping the encyclopaedia along, it's a question of riot control while dodging the
shit flung at you from 3 sides. So what's the solution?

The solution we propose is to get more of the faex populi editing Wikipedia. Oh, please - this is so bad it's
almost funny. Most people I know, who I would not trust with an encyclopaedia any more than I would trust
Jack the Ripper with my adolescent sister, don't know you can edit WP so easily, despite using it daily.
Thank heaven! Why let them in on the great secret? Why? Oh why? Hell, they're not even bad people - they'd
just be hopelessly incompetent at writing an encyclopaedia. Let the racaille stick to real life - please
don't let them near an encyclopaedia! We don't need more half-informed plebians copying 1911 (or worse,
Catholic bile from 1913) in, or adding their own speculatory trivia, or propagating yet nationalist
myths, or moronically repeating the latest pseudoscientific junk they heard from Mrs Jones at No.12
(why, how well did homeopathy work for her! Must be something in that, then, eh?). What we need, need so
badly we're screaming for them, are people with time and access to decent sources, sources printed
(Continue reading)

Erik Moeller | 20 Nov 22:51
Favicon

Re: [EWW] Edit Wikipedia Week

On 11/20/07, Christiano Moreschi <moreschiwikiman@...> wrote:
>
> This vulgar monstrosity got my blood boiling. Who the hell thought this one up?
> Clearly, not someone who spends half their day fighting in the dirty,
> blood-bespattered trenches of the never-ending Wikipedia-wars.

I always appreciate a good rant. :-) But I disagree with you. The
point of broadening participation is exactly to increase quality and
to reduce systemic bias of content authored by a predominantly white,
young, male, nerdy community.

That said -- of course any growth of our community needs to be
managed. And while the stable versions project may look like it's
frozen, it's not: the demo site linked from quality.wikimedia.org has
resulted in a lot of feedback, additional work has gone into vetting
the extension for security and scalability issues, and only the
necessary work on fundraiser-related tech issues is pushing the date
for deployment and further testing a bit.

With two full-time developers, any strategic high priority project is
difficult to execute. That's part of the reason we need to grow the
organization, and we need all the help we can get in developing
fundraising and revenue strategies that will allow us to do so. (That
said, if you are an open source developer, nothing is stopping you
from contributing to the code directly -- I will gladly point you to
the right places to do so.)

IMO the natural evolution of Wikipedia will be such that there will be
a growing separation between "collaboration spaces" and "reading
spaces" -- both require different social norms and different
(Continue reading)

Alex Zaddach | 21 Nov 19:13

Re: [EWW] Edit Wikipedia Week

On Nov 20, 2007 4:51 PM, Erik Moeller <erik@...> wrote:

> That said -- of course any growth of our community needs to be
> managed. And while the stable versions project may look like it's
> frozen, it's not: the demo site linked from quality.wikimedia.org has
> resulted in a lot of feedback, additional work has gone into vetting
> the extension for security and scalability issues, and only the
> necessary work on fundraiser-related tech issues is pushing the date
> for deployment and further testing a bit.

Well, that's all good in theory. You saw the discussion about this on
enwiki when it was first introduced to the general community though
right?
Its all at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Flagged_revisions/Sighted_versions
and in the archives of that page.
Barring some sort of massive change in thinking that will lead to a
consensus or an order from the Foundation saying "Use this." I don't
see this being implemented anytime in the foreseeable future.

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Erik Moeller | 21 Nov 19:25
Favicon

Re: [EWW] Edit Wikipedia Week

On 11/21/07, Alex Zaddach <mrzmanwiki@...> wrote:
> Barring some sort of massive change in thinking that will lead to a
> consensus or an order from the Foundation saying "Use this." I don't
> see this being implemented anytime in the foreseeable future.

Consensus on an issue like stable versions is unobtainable; what will
probably happen is that a few configurations will be demonstrated, and
the community can choose by means of a vote to adopt, or not to adopt,
one of them.

--

-- 
Toward Peace, Love & Progress:
Erik

DISCLAIMER: This message does not represent an official position of
the Wikimedia Foundation or its Board of Trustees.

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GerardM | 21 Nov 19:48

Re: [EWW] Edit Wikipedia Week

Hoi,
That is to say, within the WMF consensus may be unobtainable. In the mean
time there have  been two projects that start with the premise that they can
do better. One, in my mind the most interesting, uses the best of Wikipedia
and runs with it. If anything it is great to see good efforts just start and
I wish them well.

The issue with new projects in the WMF is that there is this constant battle
between people who think that anything new is a dilution of "their" project
and people that want to start new projects without sufficient consideration
for what will make a successful project. The consequence is people not
really happy all around while the people that just run with their idea have
the satisfaction that they are trying (ambiguous usage intended).

Thanks,
     GerardM

On Nov 21, 2007 7:25 PM, Erik Moeller <erik@...> wrote:

> On 11/21/07, Alex Zaddach <mrzmanwiki@...> wrote:
> > Barring some sort of massive change in thinking that will lead to a
> > consensus or an order from the Foundation saying "Use this." I don't
> > see this being implemented anytime in the foreseeable future.
>
> Consensus on an issue like stable versions is unobtainable; what will
> probably happen is that a few configurations will be demonstrated, and
> the community can choose by means of a vote to adopt, or not to adopt,
> one of them.
>
> --
(Continue reading)

Christiano Moreschi | 20 Nov 23:44
Favicon

Re: [EWW] Edit Wikipedia Week


" Both tracks are equally important: quality _and_
 participation. And one, ultimately, depends on the other."

I have to chuckle here - this is simply not the case. Check out the revision history of [[Herodotus]]. It's
been edited continuously for yonks, mostly by IPs adding drips and drabs here and there. The result is a
pile of lies on one of our most core articles - Herodotus is the Father of History, FFS! I remember checking
out the article's June 2006 version. It still contained plenty of lies, but actually far less.
Participation has killed off quality, and has done so for thousands of other articles. You look at the 5000
lonely articles that might be OK among the swathe of 2 million fairly crappy ones. 90 percent of those will
have been written by one Sherlock Holmes, who will probably have a couple of faithful Doctor Watsons
copy-editing for him and doing general clean-up. Sooo...all our be
 st articles are produced exactly how they would be at a normal encyclopaedia. Don't we find this suggestive?

Ergo, the fewer people editing an article, the better it is (BTW, this explains why so many FAs are on weird,
random, highly obscure articles, when half the really vital articles are for shit). And then - excuse me -
we ask more people, randomly picked off the street/Starbucks, to walk in the front door and piss up the
curtains. We don't need more editors - we need a lot fewer, carefully picked on grounds of knowledge,
sanity, IQ, and credentials. A growing community, the last thing we want, is going to create more articles
- also the last thing we want. You wouldn't consider slapping an arbitrary article cap on enwiki, would
you? Say one of 2.5 million allowed, but no further? Maybe if I asked nicely?

CM

P.S. You'll forgive me for not really buying into the stable versions stuff - haven't we heard it all before?
I'll believe it when I see it, really.
PP.S. Nerdy white young men? Ah, those beautiful children of the Enlightenment! How well, and with such
sweet reason, do they understand NPOV! More, please!
PPP.S. Ooh, the fundraiser. Next time we do this, couldn't you hire someone professional to do the banners?
We'd all shout a lot less if you did.
(Continue reading)

Renata St | 20 Nov 20:35

Re: [EWW] Edit Wikipedia Week

> What we need, need so badly we're screaming for them, are people with time and access to decent sources,
sources printed (hopefully), and printed by well-respected publishers. People are prepared to spend
time painstakingly writing quality articles from the sources - not fools who merely rabidly repeat the
latest malicious gossip off the intarwebz.

And how you are going to get them?

The process looks like this (imaginary numbers):
100 people join

40 never really edit/write speedy articles about themselves and their
garage bands
30 leave after couple edits
20 turn out to be vandals/trolls/etc
9 become decent editors doing something productive
1 goes thru trenches, learns about sources and starts writing FA and GA

Without recruiting that initial 100 people you will never get that one
gem that will keep wikipedia going.

Renata

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Marco Chiesa | 20 Nov 19:14

Re: [EWW] Edit Wikipedia Week

Christiano Moreschi ha scritto:
> This vulgar monstrosity got my blood boiling. Who the hell thought this one up? Clearly, not someone who
spends half their day fighting in the dirty, blood-bespattered trenches of the never-ending Wikipedia-wars.
>
> Look, the plain fact is that we don't want more people adding their own junk to the English Wikipedia. Out of
the 2 million articles there, under 5000 have got any sort of quality control tag attached to them (FA, GA),
and even those often have very severe problems. 5000 out of 2 million? Is that anything to be proud of? The
rest? God help us. Even ostensibly decent-looking articles simply fall apart when any sort of critical
scrutiny is applied to them - the version of [[Johann Adolph Hasse]] copied over in whole from 1911
Britannica may have looked quite nice, but Christ only knows how many goddamned lies it contained until I
rewrote the thing from scratch. Same with [[Gluck]], which I'm currently having to do exactly the same
with. More seriously, poke around in the history of [[Russi
 a]], a plausible-seeming piece of well-tuned nonsense, cobbled together from an ultra-nationalist
viewpoint from online encyclopaedias and newspapers, that absolutely falls in on itself when even
semi-expert eyes look at the beast. I could easily cite perhaps a couple of million - quite literally - more
examples of decent-looking Wikipedia articles that are, in fact, absolute crap. Wikipedia, the
encyclopaedia written by the rabble, isn't working. Hell, I haven't even got on to the user conduct
problems - trying to maintain control over enwiki isn't a question of helping the encyclopaedia along,
it's a question of riot control while dodging the shit flung at you from 3 sides. So what's the solution?
>   
Well, I guess apart from Jimbo and a bunch of people we all started 
editing Wikipedia because we heard about it somewhere.And I'm pretty 
sure quite a few of us would look back at our early edits and say "Uhm 
that was crap". And since, as you say, we have to deal with a lot of 
crap, maybe it's a good idea to have more manpower. Do you want to 
improve the entry about Gluck? Maybe it's a good idea to target some 
student of History of Music, or some music society. And if you look at 
the first edit of a random featured article, you have a good chance it 
was crap or maybe a very short stub. Target people you think are likely 
to make good contributions, and teach them how to edit, and we may end 
(Continue reading)

Christiano Moreschi | 20 Nov 19:35
Favicon

Re: [EWW] Edit Wikipedia Week


Not at all - I've got the sources, fortunately, to manage Gluck myself. And yes, my first edits were
painfully bad - I did quite a lot of damage, and could have done a hell of a lot more if I hadn't, thankfully,
been stopped in time by someone cleverer. At least I was one of a large minority - I didn't have an agenda and
wasn't here to troll!

My point is that I was not encouraged to make those first edits - thank heaven Wikipedia doesn't actually do
much in the way of active encouragement in favour of editing - and I should never have been allowed to in the
first place. At least, not without a mandatory guide to citing your sources, a registered account, and a
stern lecture on the absolute importance. As it is, I just plunged straight in with some garbage from that
night's magazine bought at the opera (thankfully a usable source, when someone taught me how to cite
things a few weeks later - and so easily I could have blundered around for months more causing absolute
mayhem, luckily I was caught by one of our finest - but so many do wander around like lost souls, just adding
their nationalist myths learned from god-knows-where, 
 with no inkling of what policy says. These are just the clueless ones - they can learn - others need to learn
with a sledgehammer). Our provision for newbies is completely rotten - we just set them up for a massive
biting. WMF-wide problem, I think.

CM

Odi profanum vulgus et arceo.

> Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 18:14:07 +0000
> From: chiesa.marco@...
> To: foundation-l@...
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] [EWW] Edit Wikipedia Week
> 
> Christiano Moreschi ha scritto:
> > This vulgar monstrosity got my blood boiling. Who the hell thought this one up? Clearly, not someone who
spends half their day fighting in the dirty, blood-bespattered trenches of the never-ending Wikipedia-wars.
(Continue reading)

Andrew Gray | 20 Nov 18:59
From: Andrew Gray <shimgray@...>

Re: [EWW] Edit Wikipedia Week

On 20/11/2007, Christiano Moreschi <moreschiwikiman@...> wrote:

> Look, the plain fact is that we don't want more people adding their own
> junk to the English Wikipedia. (...) So what's the solution?
>
> The solution we propose is to get more of the faex populi editing
> Wikipedia. Oh, please - this is so bad it's almost funny.  (...)
>
> At a time when Wikipedia's reputation in academia is in the shitter
> - and to most noble people of quality, this is what really hurts - we
> invite more of the village idiots into the online city? The horror, the
> horror!

I hate to break this to you, but Wikipedia is a project which
involves, on a pretty basic level, encouraging all-comers to edit.
This is the fundamental model. This is *what we do*.

It's not going to change, no matter how uncomfortable you get with it.
These are basic, fundamental, issues, and they're not going to change.
We're stuck with this model, for good or for ill, and trying to hide
it away and not talk about it isn't an option - because then we get
the worst of all worlds.

--

-- 
- Andrew Gray
  andrew.gray@...

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(Continue reading)

geni | 20 Nov 19:25

Re: [EWW] Edit Wikipedia Week

On 20/11/2007, Andrew Gray <shimgray@...> wrote:
> I hate to break this to you, but Wikipedia is a project which
> involves, on a pretty basic level, encouraging all-comers to edit.
> This is the fundamental model. This is *what we do*.
>
> It's not going to change, no matter how uncomfortable you get with it.
> These are basic, fundamental, issues, and they're not going to change.
> We're stuck with this model, for good or for ill, and trying to hide
> it away and not talk about it isn't an option - because then we get
> the worst of all worlds.
>
> --
> - Andrew Gray
>   andrew.gray@...

If we look at the kind of ideas that have been suggested most of them
are targeted at students or hobbyists. The amount of trouble you can
cause writing about titanium tetrachloride or the Stroudwater
Navigation is limited.

--

-- 
geni

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Christiano Moreschi | 20 Nov 19:17
Favicon

Re: [EWW] Edit Wikipedia Week


Absolutely. You're quite right. This is why Wikipedia doesn't work, though. At least, not really. Not in
providing information anyone can trust, so the bigger bibliographies people include, the better. All we
can really hope to be at the moment is a starting point for people to find lists of reliable sources. 

CM

Odi profanum vulgus et arceo.

> Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 17:59:13 +0000
> From: shimgray@...
> To: foundation-l@...
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] [EWW] Edit Wikipedia Week
> 
> On 20/11/2007, Christiano Moreschi <moreschiwikiman@...> wrote:
> 
> 
> > Look, the plain fact is that we don't want more people adding their own
> > junk to the English Wikipedia. (...) So what's the solution?
> >
> > The solution we propose is to get more of the faex populi editing
> > Wikipedia. Oh, please - this is so bad it's almost funny.  (...)
> >
> > At a time when Wikipedia's reputation in academia is in the shitter
> > - and to most noble people of quality, this is what really hurts - we
> > invite more of the village idiots into the online city? The horror, the
> > horror!
> 
> I hate to break this to you, but Wikipedia is a project which
> involves, on a pretty basic level, encouraging all-comers to edit.
(Continue reading)

David Gerard | 20 Nov 19:08
Gravatar

Re: [EWW] Edit Wikipedia Week

On 20/11/2007, Andrew Gray <shimgray@...> wrote:
> On 20/11/2007, Christiano Moreschi <moreschiwikiman@...> wrote:

> > Look, the plain fact is that we don't want more people adding their own
> > junk to the English Wikipedia. (...) So what's the solution?
> > The solution we propose is to get more of the faex populi editing
> > Wikipedia. Oh, please - this is so bad it's almost funny.  (...)
> > At a time when Wikipedia's reputation in academia is in the shitter
> > - and to most noble people of quality, this is what really hurts - we
> > invite more of the village idiots into the online city? The horror, the
> > horror!

> I hate to break this to you, but Wikipedia is a project which
> involves, on a pretty basic level, encouraging all-comers to edit.
> This is the fundamental model. This is *what we do*.

Er, yes. Christiano, you have greatly misunderstood Wikipedia.

If being in the trenches is getting you down that much, get the hell
out of there and don't take it out on the newbies.

- d.

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Christiano Moreschi | 20 Nov 19:19
Favicon

Re: [EWW] Edit Wikipedia Week


Noo, I understand Wikipedia quite well - it simply doesn't work. The fundamental model is fundamentally
flawed. Is this news? It shouldn't be - the statistics speak for themselves. 2 million articles, all
except 5000 of which probably contain at least a couple lies.

CM

Odi profanum vulgus et arceo.

> Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 18:08:09 +0000
> From: dgerard@...
> To: foundation-l@...
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] [EWW] Edit Wikipedia Week
> 
> On 20/11/2007, Andrew Gray <shimgray@...> wrote:
> > On 20/11/2007, Christiano Moreschi <moreschiwikiman@...> wrote:
> 
> > > Look, the plain fact is that we don't want more people adding their own
> > > junk to the English Wikipedia. (...) So what's the solution?
> > > The solution we propose is to get more of the faex populi editing
> > > Wikipedia. Oh, please - this is so bad it's almost funny.  (...)
> > > At a time when Wikipedia's reputation in academia is in the shitter
> > > - and to most noble people of quality, this is what really hurts - we
> > > invite more of the village idiots into the online city? The horror, the
> > > horror!
> 
> > I hate to break this to you, but Wikipedia is a project which
> > involves, on a pretty basic level, encouraging all-comers to edit.
> > This is the fundamental model. This is *what we do*.
> 
(Continue reading)

Florence Devouard | 20 Nov 18:57
Favicon

Re: [EWW] Edit Wikipedia Week

Have you considered that your Edit Wikipedia Week could be "Contact your 
local library and propose the staff a presentation of Wikipedia ?"

Or "contact your local university and propose a workshop for teachers ?"

Ant

Christiano Moreschi wrote:
> This vulgar monstrosity got my blood boiling. Who the hell thought this one up? Clearly, not someone who
spends half their day fighting in the dirty, blood-bespattered trenches of the never-ending Wikipedia-wars.
> 
> Look, the plain fact is that we don't want more people adding their own junk to the English Wikipedia. Out of
the 2 million articles there, under 5000 have got any sort of quality control tag attached to them (FA, GA),
and even those often have very severe problems. 5000 out of 2 million? Is that anything to be proud of? The
rest? God help us. Even ostensibly decent-looking articles simply fall apart when any sort of critical
scrutiny is applied to them - the version of [[Johann Adolph Hasse]] copied over in whole from 1911
Britannica may have looked quite nice, but Christ only knows how many goddamned lies it contained until I
rewrote the thing from scratch. Same with [[Gluck]], which I'm currently having to do exactly the same
with. More seriously, poke around in the history of [[Russia]], a plausible-seeming piece of well-tuned
nonsense, cobbled together from an ultra-nationalist viewpoint from online encyclopaedias and
newspapers, that absolutely falls in on itself when
 even semi-expert eyes look at the beast. I could easily cite perhaps a couple of million - quite literally -
more examples of decent-looking Wikipedia articles that are, in fact, absolute crap. Wikipedia, the
encyclopaedia written by the rabble, isn't working. Hell, I haven't even got on to the user conduct
problems - trying to maintain control over enwiki isn't a question of helping the encyclopaedia along,
it's a question of riot control while dodging the shit flung at you from 3 sides. So what's the solution?
> 
> The solution we propose is to get more of the faex populi editing Wikipedia. Oh, please - this is so bad it's
almost funny. Most people I know, who I would not trust with an encyclopaedia any more than I would trust
Jack the Ripper with my adolescent sister, don't know you can edit WP so easily, despite using it daily.
(Continue reading)

Christiano Moreschi | 20 Nov 19:10
Favicon

Re: [EWW] Edit Wikipedia Week


I have indeed. Local uni? Half of them have banned Wikipedia from use already. Local library? In this
country? Either moribund, or if not, librarians are no fools either. Do you think they trust Wikipedia any
more than the universities do? Umm, noo. I'm not Cicero. My powers of persuasion are limited!

CM

Odi profanum vulgus et arceo.

> To: foundation-l@...
> From: Anthere9@...
> Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 18:57:29 +0100
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] [EWW] Edit Wikipedia Week
> 
> Have you considered that your Edit Wikipedia Week could be "Contact your 
> local library and propose the staff a presentation of Wikipedia ?"
> 
> Or "contact your local university and propose a workshop for teachers ?"
> 
> Ant
> 
> Christiano Moreschi wrote:
> > This vulgar monstrosity got my blood boiling. Who the hell thought this one up? Clearly, not someone who
spends half their day fighting in the dirty, blood-bespattered trenches of the never-ending Wikipedia-wars.
> > 
> > Look, the plain fact is that we don't want more people adding their own junk to the English Wikipedia. Out
of the 2 million articles there, under 5000 have got any sort of quality control tag attached to them (FA,
GA), and even those often have very severe problems. 5000 out of 2 million? Is that anything to be proud of?
The rest? God help us. Even ostensibly decent-looking articles simply fall apart when any sort of
critical scrutiny is applied to them - the version of [[Johann Adolph Hasse]] copied over in whole from
(Continue reading)

geni | 20 Nov 16:12

Re: [EWW] Edit Wikipedia Week

On 20/11/2007, Christophe Henner <christophe.henner@...> wrote:
> Dear community,
>
> Few days ago a pretty neat idea was proposed, an idea which could
> involves all of the community members, all of you: the "Edit Wikipedia
> Week". That week will take place from December 3 to 8, 2007 and the
> concept is pretty simple: you, as a community member, will have the
> chance to spread the word about how to edit Wikipedia or learn how to
> work on one of the other sister projects.

Yeah you might want to think about your wording there. We built this
wiki and yet only now do we have the chance to tell other people how
to edit? What do you think we have been doing for the last few years?

>We want it to be a worldwide
> event, and why not, transforming it into an annual event.

Because either it will have minimal impact or you didn't budget for
enough database servers.

> Everyone can be involved in helping to stage a bunch of "Edit
> Wikipedia Week" events during that week.

That's nice of you.

> The events can be practically anything – big or small.

That's nice of you.

>It doesn't
(Continue reading)

Christiano Moreschi | 20 Nov 17:45
Favicon

Re: [EWW] Edit Wikipedia Week


Geni, I could kiss you.

CM

Odi profanum vulgus et arceo.

> Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 15:12:59 +0000
> From: geniice@...
> To: foundation-l@...
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] [EWW] Edit Wikipedia Week
> 
> On 20/11/2007, Christophe Henner <christophe.henner@...> wrote:
> > Dear community,
> >
> > Few days ago a pretty neat idea was proposed, an idea which could
> > involves all of the community members, all of you: the "Edit Wikipedia
> > Week". That week will take place from December 3 to 8, 2007 and the
> > concept is pretty simple: you, as a community member, will have the
> > chance to spread the word about how to edit Wikipedia or learn how to
> > work on one of the other sister projects.
> 
> Yeah you might want to think about your wording there. We built this
> wiki and yet only now do we have the chance to tell other people how
> to edit? What do you think we have been doing for the last few years?
> 
> >We want it to be a worldwide
> > event, and why not, transforming it into an annual event.
> 
> Because either it will have minimal impact or you didn't budget for
(Continue reading)

Florence Devouard | 20 Nov 16:34
Favicon

Re: [EWW] Edit Wikipedia Week

I think it might be time to change the rules of this list, because the 
very presence of 2 or 3 people only are damaging the spirit.

Geni, your behavior is simply NOT okay. Period.

Can the moderator please put that person on the moderation list ?

Thanks

Anthere

geni wrote:
> On 20/11/2007, Christophe Henner <christophe.henner@...> wrote:
>> Dear community,
>>
>> Few days ago a pretty neat idea was proposed, an idea which could
>> involves all of the community members, all of you: the "Edit Wikipedia
>> Week". That week will take place from December 3 to 8, 2007 and the
>> concept is pretty simple: you, as a community member, will have the
>> chance to spread the word about how to edit Wikipedia or learn how to
>> work on one of the other sister projects.
> 
> Yeah you might want to think about your wording there. We built this
> wiki and yet only now do we have the chance to tell other people how
> to edit? What do you think we have been doing for the last few years?
> 
>> We want it to be a worldwide
>> event, and why not, transforming it into an annual event.
> 
> Because either it will have minimal impact or you didn't budget for
(Continue reading)

Erik Moeller | 20 Nov 17:50
Favicon

Re: [EWW] Edit Wikipedia Week

On 11/20/07, Florence Devouard <Anthere9@...> wrote:
> I think it might be time to change the rules of this list, because the
> very presence of 2 or 3 people only are damaging the spirit.
>
> Geni, your behavior is simply NOT okay. Period.

I have to agree with Florence here. Michael, can you put geni on
moderation for the time being? Thanks.
--

-- 
Toward Peace, Love & Progress:
Erik

DISCLAIMER: This message does not represent an official position of
the Wikimedia Foundation or its Board of Trustees.

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Michael Bimmler | 20 Nov 19:11

Re: [EWW] Edit Wikipedia Week

On Nov 20, 2007 5:50 PM, Erik Moeller <erik@...> wrote:
> On 11/20/07, Florence Devouard <Anthere9@...> wrote:
> > I think it might be time to change the rules of this list, because the
> > very presence of 2 or 3 people only are damaging the spirit.
> >
> > Geni, your behavior is simply NOT okay. Period.
>
> I have to agree with Florence here. Michael, can you put geni on
> moderation for the time being? Thanks.

I wasn't here to do it, but apparently it has been done by someone (I
guess Austin?) by now.

Michael

> --
> Toward Peace, Love & Progress:
> Erik
>
> DISCLAIMER: This message does not represent an official position of
> the Wikimedia Foundation or its Board of Trustees.
>

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Michael Bimmler | 20 Nov 19:32

Re: [EWW] Edit Wikipedia Week

On Nov 20, 2007 7:11 PM, Michael Bimmler <mbimmler@...> wrote:
> On Nov 20, 2007 5:50 PM, Erik Moeller <erik@...> wrote:
> > On 11/20/07, Florence Devouard <Anthere9@...> wrote:
> > > I think it might be time to change the rules of this list, because the
> > > very presence of 2 or 3 people only are damaging the spirit.
> > >
> > > Geni, your behavior is simply NOT okay. Period.
> >
> > I have to agree with Florence here. Michael, can you put geni on
> > moderation for the time being? Thanks.
>
> I wasn't here to do it, but apparently it has been done by someone (I
> guess Austin?) by now.
>

Oh, just a sidenote, as this caused some confusion:
Moderation != ban   ---> You will still see messages from geni on this
list, although only after one of the list admins has approved them.
I'll apologise in advance for any errors in judgment I might make....

MIchael

> Michael
>
> > --
>
> > Toward Peace, Love & Progress:
> > Erik
> >
> > DISCLAIMER: This message does not represent an official position of
(Continue reading)

Cormac Lawler | 20 Nov 18:12

Re: [EWW] Edit Wikipedia Week

An observation on the posters advertising this week [1]..

Wouldn't it be an idea to have a poster that leaves a specific space
for the *event* that people would like to advertise? The poster as
currently designed tells people that there's a week of events, but
doesn't tell them what's happening in their area (obviously, because
there will hopefully be many events ;-)). Would it be possible to
create a new poster with some sort of blank space so people could
write in the details, and to orientate the eye to this space? Such a
poster might want to reduce the emphasis on the dates of the *week*,
in favour of the date of the *event* (which would be filled in by the
event organiser) - while the dates of the week could be mentioned in a
slightly smaller general explanatory note, perhaps toward the bottom.

I've left this note on the designer's (Mushi) talk page, but feel free
to add suggestions, or to actually implement the idea yourself.. :-)

Cormac

[1] http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Template_poster_A4.png

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Andrew Gray | 20 Nov 16:33
From: Andrew Gray <shimgray@...>

Re: [EWW] Edit Wikipedia Week

On 20/11/2007, geni <geniice@...> wrote:
> On 20/11/2007, Christophe Henner <christophe.henner@...> wrote:
> > Dear community,
> >
> > Few days ago a pretty neat idea was proposed, an idea which could
> > involves all of the community members, all of you: the "Edit Wikipedia
> > Week". That week will take place from December 3 to 8, 2007 and the
> > concept is pretty simple: you, as a community member, will have the
> > chance to spread the word about how to edit Wikipedia or learn how to
> > work on one of the other sister projects.
>
> Yeah you might want to think about your wording there. We built this
> wiki and yet only now do we have the chance to tell other people how
> to edit? What do you think we have been doing for the last few years?

Wow. Have you ever seen any attempt to do things differently that you
didn't complain about?

> There are many ways to motivate the community. Sugar coated
> condescension isn't one of them.

Yes, because whining vaguely about misphrased English and complaining
about someone encouraging people to do things is in no way
condescending or unproductive.

This may or may not be a useful project. We lose nothing by doing it,
and it certainly isn't "condescending" or "insulting" to try it.

--

-- 
- Andrew Gray
(Continue reading)

geni | 20 Nov 16:49

Re: [EWW] Edit Wikipedia Week

On 20/11/2007, Andrew Gray <shimgray@...> wrote:
> On 20/11/2007, geni <geniice@...> wrote:
> > On 20/11/2007, Christophe Henner <christophe.henner@...> wrote:
> > > Dear community,
> > >
> > > Few days ago a pretty neat idea was proposed, an idea which could
> > > involves all of the community members, all of you: the "Edit Wikipedia
> > > Week". That week will take place from December 3 to 8, 2007 and the
> > > concept is pretty simple: you, as a community member, will have the
> > > chance to spread the word about how to edit Wikipedia or learn how to
> > > work on one of the other sister projects.
> >
> > Yeah you might want to think about your wording there. We built this
> > wiki and yet only now do we have the chance to tell other people how
> > to edit? What do you think we have been doing for the last few years?
>
> Wow. Have you ever seen any attempt to do things differently that you
> didn't complain about?

All the time.

> > There are many ways to motivate the community. Sugar coated
> > condescension isn't one of them.
>
> Yes, because whining vaguely about misphrased English and complaining
> about someone encouraging people to do things is in no way
> condescending or unproductive.
>
> This may or may not be a useful project. We lose nothing by doing it,
> and it certainly isn't "condescending" or "insulting" to try it.
(Continue reading)

Brian McNeil | 20 Nov 17:01

Re: [EWW] Edit Wikipedia Week

I was also somewhat annoyed by the email geni was responding to. Yes, the
response was disproportionate, but not wholly unwarranted.

(i)	"Edit Wikipedia Week". Not the only project. [And the second time
	today	I've had a desire to rant. Erik's "we'll just mention other
	projects by name" ticked me off too. My suggested solution was given

	support.]
(ii)	Not one suggestion was given in the email. It was a plea for help
with
	no details on how to help.

Like many people who would like such a campaign to succeed I simply don't
have the resources to do a lot. I intend to discuss with one of the other
Wikinews people the text for a poster to put on a few of KUL's (Catholic
University of Leuven) notice boards. It'd be A4 in size as that's all I have
print facilities for. The objective? To try and get the uni's student
community to take over nl.wikinews.org which is currently in a "Terry
Schavio" (sp?) state.

I'd also be happy to put up a few English and Nederlands posters for WP too.
So, on that note can we move on to other actual things that people can
realistically do? If you wanted to organise an evening workshop or something
as ambitious as that you'd pretty much need to be staff or senior student
and able to commandeer a computer lab. Although, a similar thing could be
held in a cybercafé and this would mean each participant just had to pay a
small amount.

We don't need pleas for help would be my closing message, we need ideas like
postering your local area saying "Invade Starbucks on 42nd street on
(Continue reading)

Delphine Ménard | 20 Nov 18:15
Gravatar

Re: [EWW] Edit Wikipedia Week

On Nov 20, 2007 5:01 PM, Brian McNeil <brian.mcneil@...> wrote:

[snip]

> We don't need pleas for help would be my closing message, we need ideas like
> postering your local area saying "Invade Starbucks on 42nd street on
> December 3rd through 8th and discover how you can contribute to Wikipedia".
> If you and a couple of other wiki people can go along in shifts wearing your
> cafepress WMF attire you can also try and persuade the management to put up
> posters. Just don't drink too much coffee.

Leaving aside the intrinsic validity of the actuall EWW, I find your
intervention quite interesting to say the least.

What I understand from *your* plea is that unless the project is all
finished and ready to go, there is no point in asking the community on
this list about idas to further it and make it work. Interesting,
indeed.

I have heard so much of the contrary "the community has not been
consulted" whenever anyone tries to launch something that I have to
say... as a person who works for the Foundation and operates in the
organisational realm, I am damned if I know what the "community"
really ever wants. When we do something on our own, we haven't asked
for input and when we ask for help, we  should really have thought
this through.

Mildly frustrating, I would say. :-)

Delphine
(Continue reading)

Christiano Moreschi | 20 Nov 19:08
Favicon

Re: [EWW] Edit Wikipedia Week


Bah, it's not that hard. You wouldn't have this dilemma if you did things with even passing competence. You
don't, so when you fess up we scream at you because, despite our manifest folly, we really could have done a
better job. Take these bloody fundraising banners, so widely mocked. Nobody saw them before they were
unveiled, but we didn't need to do so - if they'd been, say, done professionally by a firm that specialises
in these things (as was done - very basic example - for the London Olympics 2012, and as is done for mostly
everything else in the real world). We need have no say in these matters - except we feel that we should when
things are done so badly, because we could do better (of course, if matters were being handled
competently, we wouldn't have to feel this way).

Another little illusion here we might as well dispense with ASAP - the notion of "community consensus". The
WMF community is far too big to come to consensus about anything, also true for enwiki. WP has never been run
by community consensus. It used to be run by Jimbo. Then the first admins took over. Then they retreated to
their own private alcove, and haven't ever returned into the full public gaze - but now their control is
slipping. God knows what happens next. Paralysis? It even took Jimbo to shove through such very obvious
polices as BLP and 3RR - community consensus is a polite fraud, a useful lie. But it's utter fiction.

Basically, you rule. You are the masters. We are the slaves. You dictate, we obey. This is the natural order
of things. Sometimes, such as in the case of stable versions, you may need to act against our wishes - give us
our healthful medicine, even though it tastes like muck. For the most part, though, it's very simple. Rule
with competence and efficiency, don't come up with silly ideas like this Edit Wikipedia Week, and we
slaves will obey. Happily. Slaves only rebel against foolish leaders.

CM

Odi profanum vulgus et arceo.

> Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 18:15:16 +0100
> From: notafishz@...
> To: foundation-l@...
(Continue reading)

Brian McNeil | 20 Nov 19:01

Re: [EWW] Edit Wikipedia Week

Damned by faint praise?

The initial posters are already done, and this is something that doesn't
involve serious amounts of time preparing for it. It would have been a
better mail to say, "This is the start. You just need a printer for this and
some time". Then you can outline more ambitious goals that there may be some
among the community can step up to. The more ambitious you are (eg TV
appearances) the less people are confident they can do it.

I would dearly love to see an EDIT week become a regular event, but we're on
a short timescale here. Only people who are lucky enough to be in the right
place right now will be able to get access to facilities like computer labs
to run workshops. Hence the cybercafé/Starbucks suggestion.

Yes, I expected more in the invitation to the project, but no I don't expect
people from the Foundation to be presenting things as a fait accompli. We
all have to strike some sort of balance in online communications, both in
the words we choose and in the way we interpret what others say. Be precise
in what you give, and forgiving in what you receive.

I've had a bad day anyway, probably shouldn't be writing on mailing lists.
Lost out on a nice contract today because the advertiser was not totally
honest... "We will accept people with DV clearance or people prepared to go
through the clearance process". Start date in <2 weeks, clearance process?
3-9 months. Technically an illegal advert.

Brian McNeil

-----Original Message-----
From: foundation-l-bounces@...
(Continue reading)

Cary Bass | 20 Nov 18:33
Favicon

Re: [EWW] Edit Wikipedia Week

Delphine Ménard wrote:
> On Nov 20, 2007 5:01 PM, Brian McNeil <brian.mcneil@...> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>   
>> We don't need pleas for help would be my closing message, we need ideas like
>> postering your local area saying "Invade Starbucks on 42nd street on
>> December 3rd through 8th and discover how you can contribute to Wikipedia".
>> If you and a couple of other wiki people can go along in shifts wearing your
>> cafepress WMF attire you can also try and persuade the management to put up
>> posters. Just don't drink too much coffee.
>>     
>
> Leaving aside the intrinsic validity of the actuall EWW, I find your
> intervention quite interesting to say the least.
>
> What I understand from *your* plea is that unless the project is all
> finished and ready to go, there is no point in asking the community on
> this list about idas to further it and make it work. Interesting,
> indeed.
>   
I would like to add that I told Brian privately that I felt his answer 
was exactly the response that I expected should be gotten.  And would he 
mind putting his great suggestion ("Invade Starbucks on 42nd street on 
December 3rd through 8th and discover how you can contribute to 
Wikipedia") on the wiki along with any other great ideas he might have?

--

-- 
- Cary 
(Continue reading)

Christophe Henner | 20 Nov 18:30

Re: [EWW] Edit Wikipedia Week

Hey,

I make a general answers and explaination of my point of view.

First we're lacking of time. Two personn working on this, in 3weeks
time... I'd be glad if it has any success.

Second, I took this and wanted to make it a Community project. This
means, I started it, I'll try to make it leave and be a success BUT
it's all up to you. YOU are the community. If YOU want it to be
successful, go on, help, organize. Moreover the posters have two weeks
to be fixed, so we still can do it.

You must see what as been done as the groundwork, it's up to you all
to build a magnificent project... or to let it remain groundwork.

I am now, still working on the global project, but will work on the
french ones. Personnally, I will try to get the community involved,
organise meetings in public place, I don't know yet, the starbucks
idea is interesting, but I'll try to make it a success within France
(and also elsewhere as much as I can).

I'm a bit disappointed, because for ONCE we have a full community
project, we can  make something up from scratches... but people are
moaning. My point is, when the board or anyone comes here with a fully
prepared project, you moan because you haven't been consulted. And
when we give you full power on a project, you moan because it's not
fully prepared. So what?

Anyway, you may disagree, but for now, this being a success, is up to
(Continue reading)

Dmcdevit | 21 Nov 00:31

Re: [EWW] Edit Wikipedia Week

Christophe Henner wrote:
>
> Anyway, you may disagree, but for now, this being a success, is up to
> you, community.
>
>
>   
Yes, I agree. Let's get back to the matter at hand and see if we can't 
do some constructive brainstorming here for once. This is, in the end, a 
community effort that will succeed or fail based on how we conduct it, 
and it's no one's responsibility but our own to come up with a completed 
plan. So, take the idea and run with it; be creative and do what you 
can. If Wikinews is your area of expertise, none of us will resent your 
flavor of EWW being Edit Wikinews Week: if it works, it is well within 
the spirit of the event. Personally, I will be advertising it with the 
Wikipedia name because that will bring more people, and bringing people 
into the Wikimedia fold is the primary goal; that doesn't mean I won't 
be happy to expose them to the other projects they might not know about 
once we have people to educate.

So, yesterday I talked to our student activities office on campus and 
reserved a computer lab for the Wednesday night of that week, so we can 
hold a tutorial on how to edit and what the project is about. I've 
talked to our Free Culture chapter to help out with the event. I think 
introducing people to it in person will hopefully make it much more 
meaningful to them, and they'll have a point of reference in the future 
if they need guidance. We'll publicize the event, and hopefully have 
food and Wikimedia merchandise to give out. Can we do this on a wider 
scale? We should be talking about other ideas for events to organize 
within our local communities, in the real world, and we should each try 
(Continue reading)

Birgitte SB | 20 Nov 20:57
Favicon

Re: [EWW] Edit Wikipedia Week

I would like to send some general encouragement your
way for bringing this idea forward again.  Although I
don't really talk about Wikipedia very often with my
general acquaintances, when I have they have often
been surprised to learn that it is open to editing. 
Many people just see Wikipedia as information popping
up in their Google searches without thinking much
about how the information got there.  Even when they
realize it is *possible* to edit Wikipedia, people
often imagine that it is more complicated than it is
in reality.  So I think the title has the right
emphasis with "Edit Wikipedia Week".  Editing can be
an overlooked aspect of Wikipedia.  Although that may
sound strange to a group that is self-selected from
editors.  

Birgitte SB

--- Christophe Henner <christophe.henner@...>
wrote:

> Hey,
> 
> I make a general answers and explaination of my
> point of view.
> 
> First we're lacking of time. Two personn working on
> this, in 3weeks
> time... I'd be glad if it has any success.
> 
(Continue reading)

geni | 20 Nov 18:44

Re: [EWW] Edit Wikipedia Week

On 20/11/2007, Christophe Henner <christophe.henner@...> wrote:
> Hey,
>
> I make a general answers and explaination of my point of view.
>
> First we're lacking of time. Two personn working on this, in 3weeks
> time... I'd be glad if it has any success.
>
> Second, I took this and wanted to make it a Community project. This
> means, I started it, I'll try to make it leave and be a success BUT
> it's all up to you. YOU are the community. If YOU want it to be
> successful, go on, help, organize. Moreover the posters have two weeks
> to be fixed, so we still can do it.
>
> You must see what as been done as the groundwork, it's up to you all
> to build a magnificent project... or to let it remain groundwork.
>
> I am now, still working on the global project, but will work on the
> french ones. Personnally, I will try to get the community involved,
> organise meetings in public place, I don't know yet, the starbucks
> idea is interesting, but I'll try to make it a success within France
> (and also elsewhere as much as I can).
>
> I'm a bit disappointed, because for ONCE we have a full community
> project, we can  make something up from scratches... but people are
> moaning. My point is, when the board or anyone comes here with a fully
> prepared project, you moan because you haven't been consulted. And
> when we give you full power on a project, you moan because it's not
> fully prepared. So what?
>
(Continue reading)

Brian McNeil | 20 Nov 19:59

Re: [EWW] Edit Wikipedia Week

Geni wrote:

>There are for starbucks type things meetups planed in
[I assume you mean four]
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Meetup/Melbourne_8
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Meetup/DC_3
>(sorry but I really don't know what non en projects are doing in this
>respect)
>
>Do you think we should be giving them a poke?

Absolutely!

Anyway, good. That's a starting point. OTOH, I do not know how strictly
regimented Starbucks is. If it needs help from someone in the WMF office to
get branches authorized to accept posters for this we need to know ASAP. It
is horrifically short notice to try and get a company as big as that to
sponsor something like this, but a memo from head office saying "The guys
with the geeky posters will help you sell more coffee" would be nice.

So what do we need for that? A poster reading, "December 3rd marks the start
of Edit Wikipedia Week. This Starbucks will be playing host to a hands-on
tutorial on how to share your knowledge with the world. Come see us on the
following days _____ at _____pm, grab a cup of coffee and watch out for one
of the Wikipedia people who can get you started.

Does Jimmy know anyone in Starbucks senior management? I know this is
focusing on one aspect, but if it gives us venues to achieve our goals where
college facilities may not be available...
(Continue reading)

Cormac Lawler | 20 Nov 17:29

Re: [EWW] Edit Wikipedia Week

On 11/20/07, Brian McNeil <brian.mcneil@...> wrote:

> (ii)    Not one suggestion was given in the email. It was a plea for help
> with no details on how to help.

I was also thinking that we need to give more concrete suggestions for
events, so I added a new section to the page on meta - please add,
edit and improve...

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Edit_Wikipedia_Week#Ideas_for_events

Cormac

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Guillaume Paumier | 20 Nov 16:21
Gravatar

Re: [EWW] Edit Wikipedia Week

On Nov 20, 2007 4:12 PM, geni <geniice@...> wrote:

>
> There are many ways to motivate the community. Sugar coated
> condescension isn't one of them.

There are many ways to give provide feedback. Unconstructive venom seems to
be yours.

--

-- 
Guillaume Paumier
[[m:User:guillom]]
"Go confidently in the direction of your dreams. Live the life you have
imagined." Henry David Thoreau
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geni | 20 Nov 16:41

Re: [EWW] Edit Wikipedia Week

On 20/11/2007, Guillaume Paumier <guillom.pom@...> wrote:
> There are many ways to give provide feedback. Unconstructive venom seems to
> be yours.

Construction generally requires solid foundations which I'm not
convinced exist in this case. So constructive advice would have to be
right down at the level of slow down converse with the community. Talk
to a few wikiprojects (Outreach sections/departments appear to be
becoming standard).

Find out why Wikipedia:Reach out died (Okey not an entirely fair
question since it involves rather a lot of en politics) so you don't
repeat it's mistakes.

Talk to the signpost crew who really do know a thing or to about
communicating with the community.

Try and put something together with the iCommons mob and make it clear
that you have done so.

Once that is in place I think we can agree that there would be
something to build on.

--

-- 
geni

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(Continue reading)


Gmane