gmane.os.inferno.general

Paul Winter | 8 May 10:12

manuals

Hi everyone,

I noticed VitaNuova only offers printed manuals for the third edition
of Inferno.

Is the information in those manuals identical to that in the man pages
of that edition, or is there additional information in the printed manuals?
Are the manuals of that third edition still very useful, as we are
at the fourth edition?

Paul.

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Anthony Sorace | 8 May 14:34

Re: manuals

As is always the case, printed manuals do get out of date (usually
just after printing them). Most things are common between the third
and fourth editions, but the fundamental problem remains.

Personally, I find the printed manuals very useful when I'm first
trying to understand a new batch of code; I end up going to the
references quite a bit, and the paper's much easier on the eyes. On a
day-to-day basis, the versions included in the system are more
reliable.
Anthony

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Brian L. Stuart | 8 May 16:45

Re: manuals

> As is always the case, printed manuals do get out of date (usually
> just after printing them). Most things are common between the third
> and fourth editions, but the fundamental problem remains.
> 
> Personally, I find the printed manuals very useful when I'm first
> trying to understand a new batch of code; I end up going to the
> references quite a bit, and the paper's much easier on the eyes. On a
> day-to-day basis, the versions included in the system are more
> reliable.

I've given some thought to this.  There's an online print-on-demand
company called lulu.  You send them a PDF of the interior and a
PDF of the cover and they'll handle ordering, printing and shipping.
I've used them for a couple of small personal projects, and I've
thought they might be a good way to get 4th edition manuals printed.
I ran a quick check on their current pricing and a 600 page book
would run $16.53 assuming no one made any profit on it.  This is
for a perfect bound paperback.  Other bindings are available.
You can even arrange for them to get it listed on amazon.

What I'd envision is the same two-book structure we've seen all
along in paperback.  Periodically, we could release a new sub-edition
and at the same time release an addendum containing all the changes
between the previous one and the new one.  A 30 page addendum
would run about $5.

As I have dealt with them before, I'd be willing to set it up.
I don't have time to get into editing or any other quality
control.  But if VN gives permission, we get the cover artwork
and copyright page set up, and if I can get all the fonts sorted
out, then I'd be willing to make them available.

It's a thought anyway.

BLS

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Charles Forsyth | 8 May 17:19

Re: manuals

> I've given some thought to this.  There's an online print-on-demand
> company called lulu.

i've looked at print on demand from time to time, because it's the obvious
way to do it cheaply (the book quality suffers but when it collapses, buy another),
and it reduces shipping costs and time considerably.  (shipping cost is still
moderately high -- the current books are over 2.5kg, but it would be better.)
i looked at lulu last month (i think it was) and i thought i spotted a difficulty, but perhaps i was simply
confused about something.  i'll look at it again and chat to you about it.

i didn't answer the question about the third edition manuals
because i'm not a good person to say how useful they are for the current system.
for other systems i've found printed manuals (even out of date) to be useful in
getting an overview of the whole before starting in to use it.  (i wish more of the ajax/web2
stuff had decent books. actually, i wish they had language specifications. but i digress.)
once i've got started the books become more of a souvenir.

because roger beat me up XXXXXXX errr ... nudged me about it again, i have just started a big upheaval on
the master copy of the software in the office, to rearrange the authentication system.
even printed `on demand' it probably won't be worthwhile doing a new set right away
until the software has settled.  (The changes don't actually make a big difference to the environment
as a whole, but various modules and command line options have changed significantly.)
even so, it's worthwhile seeing what will need to be done when it's sensible to try a print run.

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Caerwyn Jones | 8 May 17:22

Re: manuals

I'd definitely like to see this happen.  What is the copyright of the
man pages and the papers?

On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 10:45 AM, Brian L. Stuart <blstuart@...> wrote:
>> As is always the case, printed manuals do get out of date (usually
>> just after printing them). Most things are common between the third
>> and fourth editions, but the fundamental problem remains.
>>
>> Personally, I find the printed manuals very useful when I'm first
>> trying to understand a new batch of code; I end up going to the
>> references quite a bit, and the paper's much easier on the eyes. On a
>> day-to-day basis, the versions included in the system are more
>> reliable.
>
> I've given some thought to this.  There's an online print-on-demand
> company called lulu.  You send them a PDF of the interior and a
> PDF of the cover and they'll handle ordering, printing and shipping.
> I've used them for a couple of small personal projects, and I've
> thought they might be a good way to get 4th edition manuals printed.
> I ran a quick check on their current pricing and a 600 page book
> would run $16.53 assuming no one made any profit on it.  This is
> for a perfect bound paperback.  Other bindings are available.
> You can even arrange for them to get it listed on amazon.
>
> What I'd envision is the same two-book structure we've seen all
> along in paperback.  Periodically, we could release a new sub-edition
> and at the same time release an addendum containing all the changes
> between the previous one and the new one.  A 30 page addendum
> would run about $5.
>
> As I have dealt with them before, I'd be willing to set it up.
> I don't have time to get into editing or any other quality
> control.  But if VN gives permission, we get the cover artwork
> and copyright page set up, and if I can get all the fonts sorted
> out, then I'd be willing to make them available.
>
> It's a thought anyway.
>
> BLS
>

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Charles Forsyth | 8 May 18:47

Re: manuals

> I'd definitely like to see this happen.  What is the copyright of the
> man pages and the papers?

Lucent and Vita Nuova

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Paul Winter | 14 May 12:33

RE: manuals

Hi everyone,

Thanks for the feedback on inferno manuals.

If the information in the manpages is sufficient for limbo programming, I'll
stick to them for the time being. The first impression I got was, that docs
were outdated, but I guess all the manpages are all up-to-date, so any
differences between limbo modules of the 3rd and 4th edition of inferno
can be figured out somehow.

Paul.

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Benjamin Huntsman | 14 May 16:32

RE: manuals

I've got a copy of the 3rd Edition manuals.  They're gorgeous, and on thick glossy paper.
Out of interest, would it be prohibitively expensive to do the 4th Edition set like that again?

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Charles Forsyth | 14 May 17:02

RE: manuals

> I've got a copy of the 3rd Edition manuals.  They're gorgeous, and on thick glossy paper.
> Out of interest, would it be prohibitively expensive to do the 4th Edition set like that again?

it might be hard to get that quality from print on demand.
i had a reference, however, that fairly decent paper (perhaps not glossy but decent weight)
wasn't that much more expensive than fairly rubbish paper.
i'll see if i can find it.