Wayne Willenberg | 21 Jun 2012 18:32
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Topband: Reducing Noise in the Shack

As I mentioned in a post a few days ago, I am at the very beginning of
being able to operate on 160 and 80M’s.  (To date, I have only operated on
10, 15 and 20M.) I have been doing a lot of reading, primarily ON4UN’s
“Low-Band DXing.”

My rig (FT-dx5000) is located on a desk.  Immediately under the desk is my
computer, and just above the rig is a shelf on which sits 2 flat-screen
monitors.

One of the points made in “Low-Band DXing” is the necessity of reducing
noise in the shack.  The author states at page 7-75: “It is essential to
feed the equipment at the shack through high-quality mains filters.”  In
looking for such filters, I have come across the W3NQN AC Line Filter.  It
seems to be built with quality components, but I have not been able to find
any specs on the amount of attenuation it provides to EMI and RFI noise at
various frequencies (either common or differential mode).  Could someone
recommend a “high-quality mains filter” or comment on the W3NQN filter?

The author goes on to state: “The bottom side of the operating table in my
shack is completely covered with aluminum sheet.  This represents a lot of
capacitance and virtually zero inductance, which is just what you want!
Quality mains filters are bolted directly to those sheets and the mains
outlet to which the equipment is connected is connected as well.  The
ground plane is connected with very short low-inductance wide straps to
long copper ground rods.”  Would someone please explain to me the purpose
of this ground plane and how it helps reduce noise? How does “a lot of
capacitance and virtually zero inductance” under a transceiver help reduce
noise?

Thanks in advance for advice and help for a newcomer.
(Continue reading)

Tom W8JI | 21 Jun 2012 19:22
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Re: Topband: Reducing Noise in the Shack

My rig (FT-dx5000) is located on a desk.  Immediately under the desk is my
computer, and just above the rig is a shelf on which sits 2 flat-screen
monitors.

One of the points made in “Low-Band DXing” is the necessity of reducing
noise in the shack.  The author states at page 7-75: “It is essential to
feed the equipment at the shack through high-quality mains filters.”  In
looking for such filters, I have come across the W3NQN AC Line Filter.  It
seems to be built with quality components, but I have not been able to find
any specs on the amount of attenuation it provides to EMI and RFI noise at
various frequencies (either common or differential mode).  Could someone
recommend a “high-quality mains filter” or comment on the W3NQN filter?>>>>

I'd worry about that later, and if I needed filters, I'd filter at the noise 
source.

Unless you look at a Star Roamer or some other vacuum tube vintage receiver, 
you'll find most radios are extremely good for internal shielding of mains 
or power supply leads to the receiver RF system.

In my experience, most leakage problems are in marginal shield grounding 
connections in phono plugs or poor external equipment design, and not in 
radios at all. For example, plastic boxes with wires for jack ground leads 
inside are hundreds or thousands of times worse than anything getting into 
the radio.  When external connections are cleaned up, with any modern solid 
state radio I have owned or used, the issue becomes devices radiating out to 
antennas, which then pick up the noise.

I had a particularly difficult computer supply. Rather than do extraordinary 
and difficult things to a dozen points in the RX system, and move my 
(Continue reading)

Tom W8JI | 21 Jun 2012 22:01
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Re: Topband: Reducing Noise in the Shack

White papers:

http://docs.commscope.com/Public/Coax101.pdf

Although the test frequency and method is not described, this shows the 
difference between Quad shield and single foil and braid is 7 dB before 
10,000 flexes and 13 dB after 10,000 flexes.

My measurements of F11 are at:

http://www.w8ji.com/coaxial_cable_leakage.htm

Those measurements were made in 2007, and repeated in 2011 with no definate 
change in results. That cable has crimped connectors.

Another white paper, which bears out measurements:

http://www.westpenn-wpw.com/pdfs/coax_construction.pdf

73 Tom

ZR | 21 Jun 2012 20:49

Re: Topband: Reducing Noise in the Shack

You can build many excellent line filters for the cost of one of anything 
from DXE, etc.

I build mine into the older style USA made outlet strips using standard 
ferrite rods, and AC rated disc caps with a 3dB cuttoff of 100KHz. Listening 
on any frequency on a TS-940 and TS-950SD without an antenna there is 
absolutely no noise above about 400 KHz and it shows up below that but is 
well below antenna noise for most of the way down in frequency.

Carl
KM1H

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Wayne Willenberg" <wewill747 <at> gmail.com>
To: <Topband <at> contesting.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2012 12:32 PM
Subject: Topband: Reducing Noise in the Shack

As I mentioned in a post a few days ago, I am at the very beginning of
being able to operate on 160 and 80M’s.  (To date, I have only operated on
10, 15 and 20M.) I have been doing a lot of reading, primarily ON4UN’s
“Low-Band DXing.”

My rig (FT-dx5000) is located on a desk.  Immediately under the desk is my
computer, and just above the rig is a shelf on which sits 2 flat-screen
monitors.

One of the points made in “Low-Band DXing” is the necessity of reducing
noise in the shack.  The author states at page 7-75: “It is essential to
feed the equipment at the shack through high-quality mains filters.”  In
(Continue reading)

DAVID CUTHBERT | 21 Jun 2012 20:59
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Re: Topband: Reducing Noise in the Shack

The W7NQN line filter is a differential-mode filter. You need a filter that
is designed for common-mode filtering.

Dave WX7G
On Jun 21, 2012 10:32 AM, "Wayne Willenberg" <wewill747 <at> gmail.com> wrote:

> As I mentioned in a post a few days ago, I am at the very beginning of
> being able to operate on 160 and 80M’s.  (To date, I have only operated on
> 10, 15 and 20M.) I have been doing a lot of reading, primarily ON4UN’s
> “Low-Band DXing.”
>
>
> My rig (FT-dx5000) is located on a desk.  Immediately under the desk is my
> computer, and just above the rig is a shelf on which sits 2 flat-screen
> monitors.
>
>
> One of the points made in “Low-Band DXing” is the necessity of reducing
> noise in the shack.  The author states at page 7-75: “It is essential to
> feed the equipment at the shack through high-quality mains filters.”  In
> looking for such filters, I have come across the W3NQN AC Line Filter.  It
> seems to be built with quality components, but I have not been able to find
> any specs on the amount of attenuation it provides to EMI and RFI noise at
> various frequencies (either common or differential mode).  Could someone
> recommend a “high-quality mains filter” or comment on the W3NQN filter?
>
>
> The author goes on to state: “The bottom side of the operating table in my
> shack is completely covered with aluminum sheet.  This represents a lot of
> capacitance and virtually zero inductance, which is just what you want!
(Continue reading)

Guy Olinger K2AV | 21 Jun 2012 21:07

Re: Topband: Reducing Noise in the Shack

On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 2:59 PM, DAVID CUTHBERT <telegrapher9 <at> gmail.com>wrote:

> The W7NQN line filter is a differential-mode filter. You need a filter that
> is designed for common-mode filtering.
>
> Dave WX7G

This is from the web page advertisement:
---------
Compare this with a Brand "C" filter which only handles common-mode
interference problems.  The NQN AC power-line filters are optimized for
common-mode and differential-mode filtering and have about 3 times the
components of brand "C".
---------

Seems to specifically include common mode.

See  http://arraysolutions.com/Products/nqnaclinefilter.htm

73, Guy.
John Harden, D.M.D. | 21 Jun 2012 21:59

Re: Topband: Reducing Noise in the Shack

Dear Topbanders,

I use an ICE Model 475-3 AC Line filter in the shack. It provides 
inductive isolation, overvoltage control, capacitive decoupling and 
interference control of both common mode and differential mode signals. 
It will handle 25 amp at 110 VAC.

Usually across the line capacitors are used to suppress differential 
mode noise (usually termed X-capacitors).

And, too, common mode choke coils are used to suppress common mode noise 
(in series); line bypass capacitors (Y-capacitors) supress common mode 
noise.

This unit really works.

73,

John, W4NU

On 6/21/2012 3:07 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 2:59 PM, DAVID CUTHBERT <telegrapher9 <at> gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> The W7NQN line filter is a differential-mode filter. You need a filter that
>> is designed for common-mode filtering.
>>
>> Dave WX7G
>
> This is from the web page advertisement:
> ---------
(Continue reading)

DAVID CUTHBERT | 21 Jun 2012 22:28
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Re: Topband: Reducing Noise in the Shack

I don't like diff mode only filters because they have diff mode to common
mode conversion due to component tolerance.

I don't see a fuse in the NQN filter and it us rated for only 7 amps. To be
used on a 20 amp circuit without an internal fuse it must be able to handle
20 amps. I assume it's not UL listed?

Dave WX7G
On Jun 21, 2012 1:07 PM, "Guy Olinger K2AV" <olinger <at> bellsouth.net> wrote:

> On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 2:59 PM, DAVID CUTHBERT <telegrapher9 <at> gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> The W7NQN line filter is a differential-mode filter. You need a filter
>> that
>> is designed for common-mode filtering.
>>
>> Dave WX7G
>
>
> This is from the web page advertisement:
> ---------
> Compare this with a Brand "C" filter which only handles common-mode
> interference problems.  The NQN AC power-line filters are optimized for
> common-mode and differential-mode filtering and have about 3 times the
> components of brand "C".
> ---------
>
> Seems to specifically include common mode.
>
> See  http://arraysolutions.com/Products/nqnaclinefilter.htm
(Continue reading)

Guy Olinger K2AV | 22 Jun 2012 01:40

Re: Topband: Reducing Noise in the Shack

I'd take that question to the seller for an explanation.

The filter may be intended to quiet a particular noisy device, like a PC.
 It only needs to be rated for the current drawn if it's on the customer
side of the power outlet.  Otherwise all our lamps would have to have #12
zip cord, and all extension cords would have to be #12.   And fuses are not
required in extension cords or lamp cords clearly unsafe with an actual 15
or 20 amps on it.   73, Guy.

On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 4:28 PM, DAVID CUTHBERT <telegrapher9 <at> gmail.com>wrote:

> I don't like diff mode only filters because they have diff mode to common
> mode conversion due to component tolerance.
>
> I don't see a fuse in the NQN filter and it us rated for only 7 amps. To
> be used on a 20 amp circuit without an internal fuse it must be able to
> handle 20 amps. I assume it's not UL listed?
>
> Dave WX7G
> On Jun 21, 2012 1:07 PM, "Guy Olinger K2AV" <olinger <at> bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 2:59 PM, DAVID CUTHBERT <telegrapher9 <at> gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> The W7NQN line filter is a differential-mode filter. You need a filter
>>> that
>>> is designed for common-mode filtering.
>>>
>>> Dave WX7G
>>
>>
(Continue reading)

ZR | 22 Jun 2012 03:58

Re: Topband: Reducing Noise in the Shack

Differential mode filtering goes inside the outlet strip and ferrites on the 
outside take care of common mode on my filters.

Ferrites can be externally added to any DM only filter.

Carl
KM1H

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Guy Olinger K2AV" <olinger <at> bellsouth.net>
To: "DAVID CUTHBERT" <telegrapher9 <at> gmail.com>
Cc: <Topband <at> contesting.com>; "Wayne Willenberg" <wewill747 <at> gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2012 3:07 PM
Subject: Re: Topband: Reducing Noise in the Shack

> On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 2:59 PM, DAVID CUTHBERT 
> <telegrapher9 <at> gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> The W7NQN line filter is a differential-mode filter. You need a filter 
>> that
>> is designed for common-mode filtering.
>>
>> Dave WX7G
>
>
> This is from the web page advertisement:
> ---------
> Compare this with a Brand "C" filter which only handles common-mode
> interference problems.  The NQN AC power-line filters are optimized for
> common-mode and differential-mode filtering and have about 3 times the
(Continue reading)

Jim Brown | 22 Jun 2012 16:54

Topband: Power Line Common Mode

On 6/21/2012 6:58 PM, ZR wrote:
> Differential mode filtering goes inside the outlet strip and ferrites on the
> outside take care of common mode on my filters.

When power people talk about common mode, they're talking about voltage 
between neutral and the green wire. When RF people talk about common 
mode, we're talking about a current that is common to all three 
conductors and with no voltage between conductors. Commercial line 
filters work on the voltage between neutral and green, but do nothing to 
reduce what WE call common mode current unless the enclosure of the 
filter is integral to, and bonded to, either the noisy device or the 
device being protected the  because the green wire bypasses the filter.  
Most noise on the power line that causes us grief is what WE call common 
mode, and the only good fix for that is a multi-turn ferrite choke wound 
with all three conductors.

73, Jim K9YC
N4IS | 24 Jun 2012 17:43
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Re: Topband: Reducing Noise in the Shack


Hi guys

Let me share what I've done about reducing noise in the Shack, not all
station has this kind of configuration, you may not need it.

1- Tom is 100% right about common mode noise. I killed all common mode noise
outside the Shack. My desk is in the corner of the house and I'm using two
steel galvanized box, one for AC with a huge common mode filters made with
wire #10 and FT270-31. The second 24x24x8 for the RX and TX cables, all
grounded inside. The RX cables have also FT240-31 chokes with RG142 cables.

2- The 220Vac enters the wall and is connect to another filter with very
large surge protectors and feed my amplifier. After the filter connected to
a large aluminum bar 8"x 1/4"x 72 " followed by  an 1 KW isolation steep
down transformer to 110Vac. It is important to avoid ground loop using only
one point of grounding. 

3- EMI/RFI has two components, electrical and magnetic field must be
blocked. My RX antennas has low gain and they work near RX noise floor ,that
requires a high gain preamp, my preamp has  >40 db gain. Aluminum boxes are
not enough to kill the magnetic field noise from the PC and from my 2 LDC
screen monitors, the solution was steel tinplated  24"x36"galvanized steel
plate bellow the desk and to build a large box 20" x 30"  x 3" to install
all preamps and the RX switches inside.

4- Also there is a long ground #00 cable around the corner of the house with
ground rods each 10 FT, one leg is 40Ft log and the other is 60 FT long and
connected to the house power meter ground rod. at the end, like NEC
requires. That builds a huge low impedance ground protecting the house and
(Continue reading)

Tom W8JI | 24 Jun 2012 19:04
Favicon

Re: Topband: Reducing Noise in the Shack

> 3- EMI/RFI has two components, electrical and magnetic field must be
> blocked. My RX antennas has low gain and they work near RX noise floor 
> ,that
> requires a high gain preamp, my preamp has  >40 db gain. Aluminum boxes 
> are
> not enough to kill the magnetic field noise from the PC and from my 2 LDC
> screen monitors, the solution was steel tinplated  24"x36"galvanized steel
> plate bellow the desk and to build a large box 20" x 30"  x 3" to install
> all preamps and the RX switches inside.

While this does exist at frequencies below where skin depth in shields 
occurs, the "magnetic field thing" is a very common myth, or misconception, 
with radio frequency signals.

A monitor with low frequency energy or transformer might be able to induce 
very low frequency signals across a thin shield, and they might get into 
circuits sensitive to low frequencies, but this takes special errors. This 
is why audio system behavior cannot be applied to RF systems.

If we look at the thin copper sheet on this page:

http://www.w8ji.com/skindepth.htm

we see nothing penetrates the wall, once it is several skin-depths thick.

Neither magnetic nor electric fields will penetrate any shield or wall more 
than several skin depths thick, no matter what conductive material the 
shield or wall is made from.

This is why the foil layer on CATV cable is so effective. While a braid 
(Continue reading)

John Kaufmann | 26 Jun 2012 14:39
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Re: Topband: Reducing Noise in the Shack

This report on RFI mitigation may be of interest to folks here:
http://edocs.nps.edu/npspubs/scholarly/TR/2007/NPS-EC-07-002.pdf.  It was
done at the Naval Post Graduate School and almost appears to have been
written for ham applications.  

73, John W1FV
Jim F. | 25 Jun 2012 01:15
Picon
Favicon

Re: Topband: Reducing Noise in the Shack

Hi Jose,
You had no problem hearing my 5W signal in the "Summer Stew" and you were
the farthest contact made during my limited operating time. Some loud signals could
not hear me at all so I figured you probably had an excellent receive system.
 
I enjoyed reading the description of your interference filters.
 
Thanks and Best Regards,
 
Jim / W1FMR
 
 

--- On Sun, 6/24/12, N4IS <n4is <at> comcast.net> wrote:

From: N4IS <n4is <at> comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Topband: Reducing Noise in the Shack
To: "'Guy Olinger K2AV'" <olinger <at> bellsouth.net>, "'DAVID CUTHBERT'" <telegrapher9 <at> gmail.com>
Cc: Topband <at> contesting.com, "'Wayne Willenberg'" <wewill747 <at> gmail.com>
Date: Sunday, June 24, 2012, 11:43 AM

Hi guys

Let me share what I've done about reducing noise in the Shack, not all
station has this kind of configuration, you may not need it.

1- Tom is 100% right about common mode noise. I killed all common mode noise
outside the Shack. My desk is in the corner of the house and I'm using two
steel galvanized box, one for AC with a huge common mode filters made with
wire #10 and FT270-31. The second 24x24x8 for the RX and TX cables, all
(Continue reading)


Gmane