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yutsi | 19 Aug 2012 03:32

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"Stocking personal details"

"Under the French penal code, stocking personal details including race, 
sexuality, political leanings or religious affiliation is punishable by 
five-year prison sentences and fines of up to euro300,000 ($411,000)."

— 
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/24/jew-or-not-jew-iphone-app_n_1111730.html

Doesn't this technically make the French Wikipedia illegal? I don't 
really understand this law's nuances, so I'm wondering if someone with 
more knowledge could elaborate.
--

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~~yutsi

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Thomas Dalton | 19 Aug 2012 03:46

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Re: "Stocking personal details"

On 19 August 2012 02:32, yutsi <darthyutsi1 <at> gmail.com> wrote:
> "Under the French penal code, stocking personal details including race,
> sexuality, political leanings or religious affiliation is punishable by
> five-year prison sentences and fines of up to euro300,000 ($411,000)."
>
> —
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/24/jew-or-not-jew-iphone-app_n_1111730.html
>
>
> Doesn't this technically make the French Wikipedia illegal? I don't really
> understand this law's nuances, so I'm wondering if someone with more
> knowledge could elaborate.

The French Wikipedia is written in the French language, but it isn't
French. It is hosted by an American charity on servers in America (and
a few in the Netherlands, I think). French law doesn't apply.

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Andreas Kolbe | 19 Aug 2012 11:54

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Re: "Stocking personal details"

On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 2:46 AM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton <at> gmail.com>wrote:

> The French Wikipedia is written in the French language, but it isn't
> French. It is hosted by an American charity on servers in America (and
> a few in the Netherlands, I think). French law doesn't apply.
>

This is quite wrong, and a dangerous fallacy to promote, Thomas. To give an
example, a few months back, German Wikipedian Achim Raschka got a phone
call from the German police over his addition of a pornographic video to
the German article on pornography. The video he added violated German
pornography law, which requires an effective age filter for explicit
pornographic material. Achim wrote about his experience in the "Kurier"
(the German Signpost):

http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Kurier&oldid=103520132
 (NSFW)

He took the video out again, and the Verein helped him with a lawyer. In
the end the prosecutor's office let him off, it seems because the single
edit was too minor an offence for them to prosecute. But there is no
question that if you live in a country, and do things in Wikipedia that are
illegal in your country, you are individually liable under the laws of your
country.

Remember that the legal liability is always first and foremost the
contributor's, and not the Foundation's. In the German case, the police and
prosecutor's office came for Achim as an individual. They did not come for
the WMF or Wikimedia Germany.

(Continue reading)

Thomas Dalton | 19 Aug 2012 12:32

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Re: "Stocking personal details"

On 19 August 2012 10:54, Andreas Kolbe <jayen466 <at> gmail.com> wrote:
> This is quite wrong, and a dangerous fallacy to promote, Thomas. To give an
> example, a few months back, German Wikipedian Achim Raschka got a phone
> call from the German police over his addition of a pornographic video to
> the German article on pornography. The video he added violated German
> pornography law, which requires an effective age filter for explicit
> pornographic material. Achim wrote about his experience in the "Kurier"
> (the German Signpost):

Achim lives in Germany, so is very much subject to German law. He's
equally subject to German law if he edits the English Wikipedia,
though. There is no connection between a particular language Wikipedia
and the law of a country that speaks that language.

The OP said that the French Wikipedia was illegal, not that
contributing to Wikipedia while in France could be illegal. They are
very different things.

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Andreas Kolbe | 19 Aug 2012 13:01

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Re: "Stocking personal details"

On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 11:32 AM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton <at> gmail.com>wrote:

> On 19 August 2012 10:54, Andreas Kolbe <jayen466 <at> gmail.com> wrote:
> > This is quite wrong, and a dangerous fallacy to promote, Thomas. To give
> an
> > example, a few months back, German Wikipedian Achim Raschka got a phone
> > call from the German police over his addition of a pornographic video to
> > the German article on pornography. The video he added violated German
> > pornography law, which requires an effective age filter for explicit
> > pornographic material. Achim wrote about his experience in the "Kurier"
> > (the German Signpost):
>
> Achim lives in Germany, so is very much subject to German law. He's
> equally subject to German law if he edits the English Wikipedia,
> though. There is no connection between a particular language Wikipedia
> and the law of a country that speaks that language.
>

In actual practice, I don't believe this is entirely correct either. If
Achim had added the video to the Navajo Wikipedia, for example, rather than
the German Wikipedia, then I think the German prosecutor's office would
have been less likely to pursue the case in the interest of the German
people.

> The OP said that the French Wikipedia was illegal, not that
> contributing to Wikipedia while in France could be illegal. They are
> very different things.

Well, it's just that you made it sound like there could not possibly be any
legal problem, and that French law had no bearing on the matter at all.

(Continue reading)

Andreas Kolbe | 19 Aug 2012 14:23

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Re: "Stocking personal details"

As French Wikimedians are unlikely to see this thread here on wikien-l (and
wikifr-l seems moribund), I've dropped a post about this to wikimedia-l.

http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2012-August/121744.html
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WereSpielChequers | 19 Aug 2012 18:11

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Re: [WikiEN-l] "Stocking personal details"

It isn't just a French issue, the whole of the European Union has Data
Protection Law based on the
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_Protection_Directive

And the categories of "Sensitive" data are similar across the EU.
Ethnicity, religion, health and Political opinion being perhaps the most
relevant to us. I think that not all countries defined criminal record as
Sensitive, and the UK apparently opted out of the philosophical opinions
bit, but the legislation across Europe has commonalities, though it would
be stretching a point to describe it as harmonised.

But the good thing is that it isn't as simple as a ban on processing such
data, there are various exemptions, and I'm pretty sure they include if the
individual has made that information publicly known. So French citizens are
allowed to know what political party their President is a member of, and
they can't be prosecuted simply for categorising the Pope as a Roman
Catholic. However just because somebody's parents, siblings and children
have self identified as Jewish doesn't mean that they also have disclosed
that information about themselves.

Now that we have chapters in some of these countries it might be worth
starting a dialogue with the various Information Commissioners (apologies
if this is already happening). I would hope that our existing policies
largely cover us here, provided that is that we editors living in the EU
treat what they consider to be "sensitive" data about living people as
contentious data.  But there could be some grey areas, for example if no EU
source is covering something then an EU editor sourcing a fact from a
reliable source in the US might be in difficulty. Especially if that "fact"
was something that EU sources weren't covering because they had no legal
basis to do so.

(Continue reading)

Nathan | 19 Aug 2012 18:30

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Re: [WikiEN-l] "Stocking personal details"

On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 12:11 PM, WereSpielChequers <
werespielchequers@...> wrote:

> But there could be some grey areas, for example if no EU
> source is covering something then an EU editor sourcing a fact from a
> reliable source in the US might be in difficulty. Especially if that "fact"
> was something that EU sources weren't covering because they had no legal
> basis to do so.
>
> WSC
>
>
>
>
That's a little Orwellian, isn't it. If a "fact" is known elsewhere, but
not in your own country, you could be prosecuted for reporting it. So much
for everyone not being entitled to their own facts. An example of the
wisdom of not incorporating the WMF in the European Union, and something
that should inject caution into efforts to more closely link the WMF and
its finances to European chapters.
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Rui Correia | 19 Aug 2012 19:02

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Re: [WikiEN-l] "Stocking personal details"

For something truly orwellian, read this: "The New Totalitarianism of
Surveillance Technology"
http://readersupportednews.org/opinion2/298-185/12956-focus-the-new-totalitarianism-of-surveillance-technology

Regards,
Rui

> That's a little Orwellian, isn't it. If a "fact" is known elsewhere, but
> not in your own country, you could be prosecuted for reporting it. So much
> for everyone not being entitled to their own facts. An example of the
> wisdom of not incorporating the WMF in the European Union, and something
> that should inject caution into efforts to more closely link the WMF and
> its finances to European chapters.
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> Wikimedia-l@...
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

--

-- 
_________________________
Rui Correia
Advocacy, Human Rights, Media and Language Work Consultant
Bridge to Angola - Angola Liaison Consultant

Mobile Number in South Africa +27 74 425 4186
Número de Telemóvel na África do Sul +27 74 425 4186
"Quando a verdade é substituída pelo silêncio, o silêncio é uma
mentira" - Yevgeny Yevtushenko
"When truth is replaced by silence, the silence is a lie" - Yevgeny Yevtushenko
_______________

(Continue reading)

charles andrès | 20 Aug 2012 12:27

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Re: [WikiEN-l] "Stocking personal details"

WTF? What the link between WMF finances and the topic?  And by the way are you talking about the movement
finances or the foundation finances, because it's not the same thing.

Charles

___________________________________________________________
Charles ANDRES, Chairman
"Wikimedia CH" – Association for the advancement of free knowledge –
www.wikimedia.ch
Skype: charles.andres.wmch
IRC://irc.freenode.net/wikimedia-ch

Le 19 août 2012 à 18:30, Nathan <nawrich@...> a écrit :

>> 
>> 
> That's a little Orwellian, isn't it. If a "fact" is known elsewhere, but
> not in your own country, you could be prosecuted for reporting it. So much
> for everyone not being entitled to their own facts. An example of the
> wisdom of not incorporating the WMF in the European Union, and something
> that should inject caution into efforts to more closely link the WMF and
> its finances to European chapters.
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> Wikimedia-l@...
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> 

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(Continue reading)

Federico Leva (Nemo | 20 Aug 2012 12:37

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Re: [WikiEN-l] "Stocking personal details"

charles andrès, 08/20/2012 12:27 PM:
> WTF? What the link between WMF finances and the topic?  And by the way are you talking about the movement
finances or the foundation finances, because it's not the same thing.

Besides, we're supposed to have higher privacy standards than, say, 
Google and I'm not aware of Google having to shut down their European 
branches. If Wikimedia projects were breaching EU laws they would just 
be doing it wrong, not the opposite; I doubt they are though.

Nemo

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WereSpielChequers | 19 Aug 2012 18:11

Picon

Re: "Stocking personal details"

It isn't just a French issue, the whole of the European Union has Data
Protection Law based on the
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_Protection_Directive

And the categories of "Sensitive" data are similar across the EU.
Ethnicity, religion, health and Political opinion being perhaps the most
relevant to us. I think that not all countries defined criminal record as
Sensitive, and the UK apparently opted out of the philosophical opinions
bit, but the legislation across Europe has commonalities, though it would
be stretching a point to describe it as harmonised.

But the good thing is that it isn't as simple as a ban on processing such
data, there are various exemptions, and I'm pretty sure they include if the
individual has made that information publicly known. So French citizens are
allowed to know what political party their President is a member of, and
they can't be prosecuted simply for categorising the Pope as a Roman
Catholic. However just because somebody's parents, siblings and children
have self identified as Jewish doesn't mean that they also have disclosed
that information about themselves.

Now that we have chapters in some of these countries it might be worth
starting a dialogue with the various Information Commissioners (apologies
if this is already happening). I would hope that our existing policies
largely cover us here, provided that is that we editors living in the EU
treat what they consider to be "sensitive" data about living people as
contentious data.  But there could be some grey areas, for example if no EU
source is covering something then an EU editor sourcing a fact from a
reliable source in the US might be in difficulty. Especially if that "fact"
was something that EU sources weren't covering because they had no legal
basis to do so.

(Continue reading)

Anthony | 19 Aug 2012 20:17

Re: "Stocking personal details"

On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 6:32 AM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton <at> gmail.com> wrote:
> Achim lives in Germany, so is very much subject to German law. He's
> equally subject to German law if he edits the English Wikipedia,
> though. There is no connection between a particular language Wikipedia
> and the law of a country that speaks that language.
>
> The OP said that the French Wikipedia was illegal, not that
> contributing to Wikipedia while in France could be illegal. They are
> very different things.

And you said "French law doesn't apply."  You didn't say "France is
unlikely to be able extradite people from the United States over the
issue."  They are very different things.

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