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Tussna . | 8 Dec 2011 16:09
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Creation of a new Wikipedia - Berber language (native name: Tamazight)

Hoi iedereen / Hi all,

I've been reading your e-mails on Ahirani Wikipedia creation. And I wanted
to raise questions about the Berber Wikipedia project: *Wp/ber*

The proposal for a Berber Wikipedia (with the code: *ber*, *ISO 639-2 and ISO
639-5*) was rejected a while ago because Berber doesn't have an ISO 639-3
code. Although, it does have ISO 639-2 and ISO 639-5.

The Wikipedia board argued that Berber "is not a language but is a language
group".

The fact is: it is both.

The Wikipedia board advised to start multiple Berber Wikipedias for the
dozen of Berber dialects which do have ISO 639-3 codes (like Wp/rif,
Wp/shi, Wp/kab, and Wp/tzm). Some call them "languages" because they have
the ISO codes and thus have the status of "language".

But the motivation is low for the Berber dialects. Now the Berber language
(in its unified standard form) is official in the Moroccan constitution and
is recognized as a national language in Algeria's constitution, and is
taught in both countries' schools, there is a solid basis for considering
it a language (not just a scholarly group of languages/dialects).

So my questions are:

-How do we convince the Wikipedia board to reconsider the Wp/ber project
and approve it?
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Gerard Meijssen | 8 Dec 2011 17:28
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Re: Creation of a new Wikipedia - Berber language (native name: Tamazight)

Hoi,
There are several issues at play. First off, Berber as a macro language
consists of in total 25 languages.These languages are not only spoken in
Morocco and Algeria. Having one language created by government(s) subsume
all 25 languages and cultures is a bit much.
http://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=57-16

The language policy does not allow for created languages and it does not
differentiate between the reasons for the creation of a language.

The language committee assesses for the Wikimedia board what the merits are
for a proposal for a new language. It has some wriggle room but typically
it chooses not to make exceptions. It would help when the language
committee is provided with some documentation that this Berber language is
taught in schools in both countries. This would offset the issue of it
being a constructed language quite a bit.

It would probably not be hard to convince ISO to add a language code for
this Berber language. Not hard because there is governmental support for
this.
Thanks,
       Gerard

On 8 December 2011 16:09, Tussna . <tussna <at> gmail.com> wrote:

> Hoi iedereen / Hi all,
>
> I've been reading your e-mails on Ahirani Wikipedia creation. And I wanted
> to raise questions about the Berber Wikipedia project: *Wp/ber*
>
(Continue reading)

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Tussna . | 8 Dec 2011 21:14
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Re: Creation of a new Wikipedia - Berber language (native name: Tamazight)

Hoi Gerard,

Thanks a lot for your quick reply.

Yes, Berber consists of about 25 dialects/languages, divided across 10
North African and Saharan countries.

But most of the Berber-speakers (~90%) and Berber publications are
concentrated in Morocco and Algeria, (smaller numbers in Libya, Niger,
Mali...).

I just didn't want to go too much in detail in my e-mail. Of course, all
Berber dialects and sub-cultures are equally worthy of preservation and
development.

In fact, a lot of words and neologisms included in Standard Berber come
from or are based on words from smaller isolated Berber dialects in the
Sahara (especially Tuareg Berber), because they have been preserved there.

An important thing to understand is that "Standard Berber" is not being
created by the governments.

This is not some Esperanto-type of language.

Standard Berber is a collective effort of writers, linguists, educators,
and (since a decade ago) schools and some universities and institutes, in
which local varieties are integrated into a functioning standard language
worthy of being used in mainstream media and education.

In other words: it is not an artificial / created language. It is a
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Gerard Meijssen | 9 Dec 2011 12:45
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Re: Creation of a new Wikipedia - Berber language (native name: Tamazight)

Hoi,
When you send it to me, it will be forwarded to the language committee.

The big problem with not having a code for a language is that the material
will not be tagged in this way and consequently not be found on the
Internet. What can be done is using a code like ber-Latn-x-standard or
ber-Tfng-x-standard to indicate the language. Consequently it is VERY
important to expedite a resolution in this. Yes, when you have sufficient
documentation YOU can ask for a language code.. (contact me off-list).

As there is a case to be made for a separate language code, it will likely
not be possible to get a code that is part of IETF (a typical either or
situation).
thanks,
     Gerard

On 8 December 2011 21:14, Tussna . <tussna <at> gmail.com> wrote:

> Hoi Gerard,
>
> Thanks a lot for your quick reply.
>
> Yes, Berber consists of about 25 dialects/languages, divided across 10
> North African and Saharan countries.
>
> But most of the Berber-speakers (~90%) and Berber publications are
> concentrated in Morocco and Algeria, (smaller numbers in Libya, Niger,
> Mali...).
>
> I just didn't want to go too much in detail in my e-mail. Of course, all
(Continue reading)

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aksel afersig | 14 Dec 2011 17:48
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Re: Creation of a new Wikipedia - Berber language (native name: Tamazight)

First, excuse my intrusion into this.

I am very pleased to learn that there are people on Wikipedia that
addresses this
issue in its entirety.

In all government and non-governmental, there is this big problem of
transcription. Some opt for the original character for reasons of
authenticity, one for Latin transcription for technological reasons.

Personally, I opt for co-existence of two transcripts and it is duty of the
Berbers to take steps to design interfaces transcription. Give everyone the
opportunity to discover the richness of the language several thousand years.

Regarding Wikipedia, I wonder if there is a nuisance on the co-existence of
two transcription, like that we would give people more chance to
participate.

Cordially.

2011/12/9 Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen <at> gmail.com>

> Hoi,
> When you send it to me, it will be forwarded to the language committee.
>
> The big problem with not having a code for a language is that the material
> will not be tagged in this way and consequently not be found on the
> Internet. What can be done is using a code like ber-Latn-x-standard or
> ber-Tfng-x-standard to indicate the language. Consequently it is VERY
> important to expedite a resolution in this. Yes, when you have sufficient
(Continue reading)

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Gerard Meijssen | 15 Dec 2011 15:44
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Re: Creation of a new Wikipedia - Berber language (native name: Tamazight)

Hoi,
When the transliteration from and to the Latin script is straight forward,
we may have a situation where "round trip" transcription is possible. This
means that like we already do for for instance Serbian and Chinese save it
in one script and let it be a user preference to use either script.
Thanks,
      GerardM

On 14 December 2011 17:48, aksel afersig <afersig <at> gmail.com> wrote:

> First, excuse my intrusion into this.
>
> I am very pleased to learn that there are people on Wikipedia that
> addresses this
> issue in its entirety.
>
> In all government and non-governmental, there is this big problem of
> transcription. Some opt for the original character for reasons of
> authenticity, one for Latin transcription for technological reasons.
>
> Personally, I opt for co-existence of two transcripts and it is duty of the
> Berbers to take steps to design interfaces transcription. Give everyone the
> opportunity to discover the richness of the language several thousand
> years.
>
> Regarding Wikipedia, I wonder if there is a nuisance on the co-existence of
> two transcription, like that we would give people more chance to
> participate.
>
> Cordially.
(Continue reading)

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M. Williamson | 15 Dec 2011 20:35
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Re: Creation of a new Wikipedia - Berber language (native name: Tamazight)

I'm afraid that round-trip conversion is not easily feasible given
that Tifinagh has no casing distinctions. However, if the community is
willing to implement conversion with this caveat in mind, as was done
on the Inuktitut Wikipedia, it should be possible.

2011/12/15, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen <at> gmail.com>:
> Hoi,
> When the transliteration from and to the Latin script is straight forward,
> we may have a situation where "round trip" transcription is possible. This
> means that like we already do for for instance Serbian and Chinese save it
> in one script and let it be a user preference to use either script.
> Thanks,
>       GerardM
>
> On 14 December 2011 17:48, aksel afersig <afersig <at> gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> First, excuse my intrusion into this.
>>
>> I am very pleased to learn that there are people on Wikipedia that
>> addresses this
>> issue in its entirety.
>>
>> In all government and non-governmental, there is this big problem of
>> transcription. Some opt for the original character for reasons of
>> authenticity, one for Latin transcription for technological reasons.
>>
>> Personally, I opt for co-existence of two transcripts and it is duty of
>> the
>> Berbers to take steps to design interfaces transcription. Give everyone
>> the
(Continue reading)

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Gerard Meijssen | 16 Dec 2011 16:36
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Re: Creation of a new Wikipedia - Berber language (native name: Tamazight)

Hoi,
When the source text is always saved in the Latin script, casing can be
correctly applied to a text. Only when the text is originally in the
Tifinach script there may be issues.
Thanks,
      Gerard

On 15 December 2011 20:35, M. Williamson <node.ue <at> gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm afraid that round-trip conversion is not easily feasible given
> that Tifinagh has no casing distinctions. However, if the community is
> willing to implement conversion with this caveat in mind, as was done
> on the Inuktitut Wikipedia, it should be possible.
>
> 2011/12/15, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen <at> gmail.com>:
> > Hoi,
> > When the transliteration from and to the Latin script is straight
> forward,
> > we may have a situation where "round trip" transcription is possible.
> This
> > means that like we already do for for instance Serbian and Chinese save
> it
> > in one script and let it be a user preference to use either script.
> > Thanks,
> >       GerardM
> >
> > On 14 December 2011 17:48, aksel afersig <afersig <at> gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> First, excuse my intrusion into this.
> >>
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