Ben Brockert | 16 May 2006 04:31

Re: Sparging

On Apr 24, 2006, at 11:01 PM, Randall Clague wrote:
> Ben,
>
> Build and test the kit engine as is before you upgrade.  That will  
> give you enough hands on experience that you can think about  
> designing your own engine; the Systems Solaire engine won't handle  
> the extra heat you'll get from stronger peroxide.  Juan Lozano will  
> sell you a rotary evaporator for a few thousand dollars.  If you  
> don't want to spend the next several years reinventing the peroxide  
> processing wheel for the 40th time, buy one of Juan's concentrators.
>
> References are Sutton and Huzel-Huang; neither is cheap, but both  
> are good.
>
> -R

Thanks, Randall.

We built the engine and airframe, and will be flying it this fall.  
Current simulations put it a bit over 8400 feet, which is reasonable  
for such a heavy engine.

I saw the article on Lozano in Popular Science, it's quite a story. I  
administrate an international forum that includes rocketry and manned  
flight ( http://wwww.pulse-jets.com/phpbb2/ ) and rocket belt  
projects are always popular discussions.

If buying a machine is the best route, why is ERPS rolling their own?

Thanks for the references, I'll look them up.
(Continue reading)

David Weinshenker | 16 May 2006 05:54
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Re: Sparging

Ben Brockert wrote:
> If buying a machine is the best route, why is ERPS rolling their own?

A. In deep enough that I'd hate to walk away at this point - I've 
got enough infrastructure in place (incl. working 3-phase power at 
the ranch, now!) and equipment under construction that I may as well 
see this phase through to where I've given my current plan a fair 
test! (even though it's taking a few years longer than I first 
assumed... but that's more due to logistical externalities than 
to insurmountable obstacles in the technical development itself, 
which I must be careful to keep in mind when responding to this 
sort of question: the hard part hasn't been building things so 
much as making the time available to do it.)

B. I think the route we're pursuing will potentially yield extra-pure
(>98%) H2O2 with low impurity levels, as in the last batches XL-space 
supplied before closing: and the "squeaky clean & wicked pure" stuff
has evident potential not only for catalytic work but also for potential
hypergolic combinations. (Everything I've encountered so far leads me
to the conclusion that if lower-concentration material is desired for
use with a particular catalyst, best results will be had with highly-purified
material (by way of a final freeze separation) diluted as needed, rather
than with H2O2 concentrated by evaporation directly up to the intended
strength (unless the evaporation starts with extremely low-solute material).

This is not out of the question: the process used by Bengtsson of
"Peroxide Propulsion Systems" in Sweden involves running the H2O2
in dilute aqueous solution through an ion-exchange "demineralizer"
as is used in preparing purified water: with solutes thus removed,
he then concentrates the solution by evaporation.
(Continue reading)

John Carmack | 16 May 2006 08:36
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Re: Sparging


>
>B. I think the route we're pursuing will potentially yield extra-pure
>(>98%) H2O2 with low impurity levels, as in the last batches XL-space
>supplied before closing: and the "squeaky clean & wicked pure" stuff
>has evident potential not only for catalytic work but also for potential
>hypergolic combinations. (Everything I've encountered so far leads me
>to the conclusion that if lower-concentration material is desired for
>use with a particular catalyst, best results will be had with highly-purified
>material (by way of a final freeze separation) diluted as needed, rather
>than with H2O2 concentrated by evaporation directly up to the intended
>strength (unless the evaporation starts with extremely low-solute material).
>
>This is not out of the question: the process used by Bengtsson of
>"Peroxide Propulsion Systems" in Sweden involves running the H2O2
>in dilute aqueous solution through an ion-exchange "demineralizer"
>as is used in preparing purified water: with solutes thus removed,
>he then concentrates the solution by evaporation.

I have said this several times in the past -- start with Solvay Ultra 
Pure at 50% concentration.  It reads zero on a TDS meter, compared to 
4 ppm for FMC propulsion grade.  You could concentrate an awful lot 
of that and still be at extreme purity levels.  We were getting it 
for $1 / lb in 500 lb drums.

John Carmack
Alexander Mikhailov | 16 May 2006 06:48
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Re: Sparging

--- David Weinshenker <daze39 <at> earthlink.net> wrote:
> 
> Biggest negative IMHO of the Lozano apparatus is
> using laboratory-style
> glass-bulb vacuum flasks, which seem like they could
> be a bit fragile at
> that scale...
> 

He reports his design being used by some,
particularly, a japanese company. Here is the thing
which looks interesting: is it just "feels" unsafe, or
you have something to back up your feelings?

Regards,

Alex

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David Weinshenker | 16 May 2006 06:58
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Re: Sparging

Alexander Mikhailov wrote:
> 
> --- David Weinshenker <daze39 <at> earthlink.net> wrote:
> >
> > Biggest negative IMHO of the Lozano apparatus is
> > using laboratory-style
> > glass-bulb vacuum flasks, which seem like they could
> > be a bit fragile at
> > that scale...
> >
> 
> He reports his design being used by some,
> particularly, a japanese company. Here is the thing
> which looks interesting: is it just "feels" unsafe, or
> you have something to back up your feelings?

Mainly a concern about risk of damage during transport 
and handling, and setting the system up in the field.

It just seems like it would be so easy to crack something...
true, I'm sure it would be Pyrex or similar glass, but it's
still glass. The system topology may have some merit but
I just feel like the glass version would be awkward to set
up safely - especially under limited conditions.

-dave w
Michael Wallis | 16 May 2006 19:40

Re: Sparging

On Mon 15.May'06 at 21:58:04 -0700, Dave W wrote:

> Alexander Mikhailov wrote:
> > 
> > --- David Weinshenker <daze39 <at> earthlink.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > Biggest negative IMHO of the Lozano apparatus is
> > > using laboratory-style
> > > glass-bulb vacuum flasks, which seem like they could
> > > be a bit fragile at
> > > that scale...
> > >
> > 
> > He reports his design being used by some,
> > particularly, a japanese company. Here is the thing
> > which looks interesting: is it just "feels" unsafe, or
> > you have something to back up your feelings?
> 
> Mainly a concern about risk of damage during transport 
> and handling, and setting the system up in the field.
> 
> It just seems like it would be so easy to crack something...
> true, I'm sure it would be Pyrex or similar glass, but it's
> still glass. The system topology may have some merit but
> I just feel like the glass version would be awkward to set
> up safely - especially under limited conditions.

I think Juan's setup is designed more for the "lab" or "commercial"
operation where everything is nice, and neat and clean and someoe is
there 24/7 to check on things.
(Continue reading)

Alexander Mikhailov | 16 May 2006 21:55
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Re: Sparging


--- Michael Wallis <mwallis <at> wallis.com> wrote:

> 
> But then, we may not be doing things the way you
> want to. If you've
> got the $15K to spend and a stable, active area
> where the aparatus can
> be monitored, by all means use Juan's stuff. For us,
> however, it's not
> really an option.
> 

They could be another option. If it is possible to
find a place to run the sparger locally - some
chemical laboratory, may be - and the equipment may be
rented, or a cheaper version could be bought and
assembled, then it's possible to produce enough HTP
for, say, a whole project. A project of KISS scale
would likely spend no more than 30 gallons of HTP,
perhaps even less. Something similar... Sean, what
about The Spike?.. What are the estimations? And what
is the current active project, the next flying thing?

After (or during) production the HTP can be
transferred to the Rocket Ranch to keep it there. Now
we only need to find how much HTP can be produced in a
single session in the lab (if it can't run
unattended), so to calculate the time scope and
expences.
(Continue reading)

John Carmack | 16 May 2006 22:26
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Re: Sparging


>
>They could be another option. If it is possible to
>find a place to run the sparger locally - some
>chemical laboratory, may be - and the equipment may be
>rented, or a cheaper version could be bought and
>assembled, then it's possible to produce enough HTP
>for, say, a whole project. A project of KISS scale
>would likely spend no more than 30 gallons of HTP,
>perhaps even less. Something similar... Sean, what
>about The Spike?.. What are the estimations? And what
>is the current active project, the next flying thing?
>
>After (or during) production the HTP can be
>transferred to the Rocket Ranch to keep it there. Now
>we only need to find how much HTP can be produced in a
>single session in the lab (if it can't run
>unattended), so to calculate the time scope and
>expences.
>
>Alexander

I have wondered about that as well -- I certainly wouldn't want to do 
chemical processing "out in the wilderness".  Getting the proper 
hazmat permits to work in civilization and transport might actually be easier.

John Carmack

Gmane