The classic mailing list for XML developers

G. Ken Holman | 15 Aug 2012 14:06

Re: Will XML Schema 1.1 get traction?

At 2012-08-14 16:11 +0100, Andrew Welch wrote:
>On 14 August 2012 15:57, John Cowan <cowan <at> mercury.ccil.org> wrote:
> > Rick Jelliffe scripsit:
> >
> >> I have reached the stage where I think every enumerated list in an XSD
> >> (or RELAX NG, or DTD) should be regarded as guilty until proven
> >> useful, unless they are stable and unlikely to change in the lifetime
> >> of a schema.
> >
> > I agree in principle.  However, such constructs may be not so much a
> > schema smell as an organizational smell.  Excluding lists from schemas
> > presumes that someone else is in the business of making and validating
> > them
>
>I don't really see a problem with holding the enumerations in a file
>of their own and versioning them separately to the main xsd.  That's
>no different to external code lists, and it avoids the separate
>additional validation step.

The OASIS Universal Business Language TC ended up deciding there was 
a difference between embedding code lists and externalizing 
them.  Sadly, UBL 2.0 ended up with a hybrid of embedded (from 
UN/CEFACT schemas) and externalized (from UBL TC schemas) code lists 
and from version 2.1 all are now external.

The OASIS Code List Representation TC published Tony Coates's 
genericode specification and my context/value association 
specification as the combination used to create the separate 
additional validation step you cite.  Users use these to create 
expressions of their code list requirements, and a process creates

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Len Bullard | 15 Aug 2012 14:58

RE: Will XML Schema 1.1 get traction?

Given the FpML case where the value constraints can vary by contract, by
state, or internationally the usability of a standard set of value
assertions is less, correct?  In this case, the need for a separately
citable enumerated list is greater, correct?

IOW, the utility of XSD 1.1 varies by the locale and application per the
actual business rules that prevail in a business or contract by type,
correct?  So unless one can make the case for some n number of stable
constraint sets, it is better as Rick suggests to keep the enumerations
in separate but (as I am pointing out) citable therefore standard value
sets. 

OTW, the citation of XSD 1.1 for n Business isn't buying the regulator
much.

It is important given a market that may claim web applications for
regulatory systems (say SEC) improve or provide real transparency.  In
fact, the devil is in the details and the person who makes the decisions
may not be a regulator.  They may be Andrew or the Technical Committee
and their requirements real or imagined may not be regulation.

It's of little value to provide constraint systems that don't constrain
the value of note provably.

len

-----Original Message-----
From: G. Ken Holman [mailto:g.ken.holman <at> gmail.com] On Behalf Of G. Ken
Holman
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 7:06 AM

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Andrew Welch | 15 Aug 2012 15:03

Re: Will XML Schema 1.1 get traction?

On 15 August 2012 13:58, Len Bullard <Len.Bullard <at> ses-i.com> wrote:
> Given the FpML case where the value constraints can vary by contract

It doesn't though does it?

--

-- 
Andrew Welch
http://andrewjwelch.com

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Len Bullard | 15 Aug 2012 15:41

RE: Will XML Schema 1.1 get traction?

A user of a financial instrument should be able to point directly to the
exact requirement for the value lists and any constraints.  

I may be ill-informed but I think FpML is used for derivatives.  Can
FpML describe interest rate swaps?  If so:

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-08-13/business/sns-rt-us-jpmorga
n-lawsuitbre87d00y-20120813_1_bond-issue-interest-rates-outstanding-bond
s

len

-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Welch [mailto:andrew.j.welch <at> gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 8:03 AM
To: Len Bullard
Cc: G. Ken Holman; XML-Dev Mailing list
Subject: Re: [xml-dev] Will XML Schema 1.1 get traction?

On 15 August 2012 13:58, Len Bullard <Len.Bullard <at> ses-i.com> wrote:
> Given the FpML case where the value constraints can vary by contract

It doesn't though does it?

--

-- 
Andrew Welch
http://andrewjwelch.com

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Andrew Welch | 15 Aug 2012 15:54

Re: Will XML Schema 1.1 get traction?

> I may be ill-informed but I think FpML is used for derivatives.  Can
> FpML describe interest rate swaps?  If so:

Yep FpML is used for all types of swaps and other derivatives, but
there is nothing contract specific about it.  That's more likely to be
built into the trading system than the serialisation format.

--

-- 
Andrew Welch
http://andrewjwelch.com

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Len Bullard | 15 Aug 2012 16:34

RE: Will XML Schema 1.1 get traction?

So the data of note to the lawsuit (the interest rate) is in the
application, not the document exchanged in FpML.   

O The application is customized per location.

O Anyone looking for the evidence trail can't use the record
transactions per FpML

O FpML cannot be cited as the standard for regulated trading.

They do mean "private" trading. No wonder Italy and Greece are hosed.

Again, this is of interest to those who might claim the use of XML
ensures or enhances transparency and traceability per regulatory
constraints.  It can but the claims may not meet implementation
constraints.

Here are the Wikipedia claims (not authoritative, of course):

"All categories of privately negotiated derivatives will eventually be
included within the standard. The standard is managed by ISDA on behalf
of a community of investment banks that make a market in OTC
derivatives.

The FpML standard was first published by JP Morgan and
PricewaterhouseCoopers on 9 June 1999 in a paper titled "Introducing
FpML: A New Standard for E-commerce". As a result, the FpML standards
committee was founded.

As of October 2009 FpML 4.7 is the latest [Recommendation] version. The

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Michael Kay | 15 Aug 2012 16:47

Re: Will XML Schema 1.1 get traction?


>
> They won't be able to do that if XSD 1.1 is used to express 
> enumerations and other value constraints that are fluid for users.
>
> Whether XSD 1.1 is needed otherwise for structural and lexical 
> constraints remains to be seen
This discussion about the need to keep different parts of a schema 
separate so that the different parts can be under different change 
control is fascinating (and challenging), but I think it's of marginal 
relevance to the question of XSD 1.1 uptake. After all, the canonical 
example of a validation feature that needs to be relatively flexible is 
code lists, and that's entirely within the scope of XSD 1.0. I don't 
think there's any evidence that the new validation features introduced 
by XSD 1.1 tend to correspond to rules that change more frequently than 
the rules that are within the scope of XSD 1.0.

Michael Kay
Saxonica

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Len Bullard | 28 Aug 2012 03:19

Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable Internet

Normally I wouldn't post this here, but here is where many of the people who
built the machine gather, and it is our responsibility to do something about
the unintended consequences.

http://thetrichordist.wordpress.com/2012/08/27/principles-for-an-ethical-and
-sustainable-internet/

We're killing our culture.  I don't think anyone intended that but the web
is serving interests antithetical to its own continued health.  I don't
intend to have a long debate here about that. We did that a decade ago.  On
the other hand, it's time to quit denying it or telling others nothing can
be done because it is "inevitable".  We've tried it the open source way.
We've tried it the egoboo way.  These ways have failed to protect the rights
of others.  We work for companies that fight each other viciously for
intellectual property of their own while profiting through the piracy of the
rights of others.

If we can't stop it, it will be stopped by means none of us will like.  This
goes to the heart of businesses.  This goes to the heart of culture.

If we were smart enough to turn it on, we better prepare to watch it
disintegrate if we can't control the unintended consequences.

len

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Tei | 28 Aug 2012 12:00

Re: Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable Internet

On 28 August 2012 03:19, Len Bullard <cbullard <at> hiwaay.net> wrote:
> Normally I wouldn't post this here, but here is where many of the people who
> built the machine gather, and it is our responsibility to do something about
> the unintended consequences.
>
> http://thetrichordist.wordpress.com/2012/08/27/principles-for-an-ethical-and
> -sustainable-internet/
>
> We're killing our culture.  I don't think anyone intended that but the web
> is serving interests antithetical to its own continued health.  I don't
> intend to have a long debate here about that. We did that a decade ago.  On
> the other hand, it's time to quit denying it or telling others nothing can
> be done because it is "inevitable".  We've tried it the open source way.

You say like killing our culture is a bad thing.  Our culture will
die, and another one will born. Change, evolution, progress.

> We've tried it the egoboo way.  These ways have failed to protect the rights
> of others.  We work for companies that fight each other viciously for
> intellectual property of their own while profiting through the piracy of the
> rights of others.
>
> If we can't stop it, it will be stopped by means none of us will like.  This
> goes to the heart of businesses.  This goes to the heart of culture.
>
> If we were smart enough to turn it on, we better prepare to watch it
> disintegrate if we can't control the unintended consequences.
>
> len
>

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Michael Hopwood | 28 Aug 2012 12:09

RE: Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable Internet

Len, Oscar,

I posted this at the blog you sent round, maybe it's worth quoting here too?

“As the internet becomes increasingly a “machine to machine” environment, driven by data, the
management of copyright must not be left behind. This is not a project about “digital rights
management” as commonly understood in terms of rights enforcement; rather it is a project about the
communication and management of digital rights data; i.e. the creation of a standard data
infrastructure for increasingly automated rights communication…

The project is designed to create an infrastructure which is neutral with respect to regulatory,
commercial and technical environments and flexible to the changes which will inevitably occur in each of
these over time. The project is not about changing copyright law but rather will support all types of
business model and commercial transaction (including “free”); and any supply or value chain. One of
the overall objectives of our project is to ensure that users, both B2B and consumers, can easily access
and enjoy content, whether it is through human transacted or automated licensing.”

More: http://www.linkedcontentcoalition.org/The_Project.html

PS - there will be XML involved at some point, almost certainly...

-----Original Message-----
From: Tei [mailto:oscar.vives <at> gmail.com] 
Sent: 28 August 2012 11:01
To: xml-dev <at> lists.xml.org
Subject: Re: [xml-dev] Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable Internet

On 28 August 2012 03:19, Len Bullard <cbullard <at> hiwaay.net> wrote:
> Normally I wouldn't post this here, but here is where many of the 
> people who built the machine gather, and it is our responsibility to

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Len Bullard | 28 Aug 2012 14:51

RE: Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable Internet

Thanks Michael.  Technical solutions are welcome.  There are more discussions of that and other means.   Some
heavyweights in the music industry are paying close attention to those discussions.

A problem is advancing the understanding of the situation when it is mired up in flawed discussions of
topics such as censorship.  Even our own luminaries have fallen into that trap and as a result, their
credibility is questioned.

If you read the Trichordist blog you'll see that legal solutions are now being pursued aggressively and are
having an impact.  There is focus on the search engines and ad servers where exploitation is noticeable,
traceable and provable.  As a result companies such as BMW are pulling ads and changing policies.  Google
quietly settled in another case.

The entertainment community is stepping up to fight the evangelists who may have been well meaning, eg,
Doctorow and Lessig, but have ultimately been shown to be dead wrong.   We built a machine that simply
transfers wealth and is in no way frictionless.

Yes, Tei, cultures evolve but theft is theft.   According to the US Dept of Labor, the number of professional
musicians (say working for a living) has dropped 41% in the last decade.  Piracy has an impact.

len

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Hopwood [mailto:michael <at> editeur.org] 
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 5:10 AM
To: Tei; xml-dev <at> lists.xml.org; Len Bullard
Subject: RE: [xml-dev] Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable Internet

Len, Oscar,

I posted this at the blog you sent round, maybe it's worth quoting here too?

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Tei | 28 Aug 2012 16:57

Re: Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable Internet

On 28 August 2012 14:51, Len Bullard <Len.Bullard <at> ses-i.com> wrote:
..
> According to the US Dept of Labor, the number of professional musicians (say working for a living) has
dropped 41% in the last decade.  Piracy has an impact.
>

Culture change, and people don't want to pay for stuff now.  This
don't mean you can't make money anymore, but you have to go fishing in
a different way, the old system don't work as well as used to work.

As for calling thief people that enjoy your creations without paying.
Its fair, I suppose.

Almost all iOS apps are now free, and 40% are making a lot of money,
like $400.000  (the other 60% lose money).    People used to say that
Android had a large piracy problem. Now both markets are equal in
distribution paid apps/ free apps, with dominance of the free.
Pirates are just undeserved customers, most of them would pay
something for your work, perhaps some cents, less than 20 cents.

--

-- 
--
ℱin del ℳensaje.

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Len Bullard | 28 Aug 2012 17:13

RE: Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable Internet

Bogus.

People steal because there are no consequences.  When the consequences become draconian, they stop. The
web culture will have to adjust to paying for their entertainment or adjust to consequences that will
become ever more uncomfortable and expensive.  This is not about the mom or pop or kid creating a youtube
wedding video.  This is about large scale well-organized and well-financed piracy with major internet
firms acting as co-conspirators to enable them.

Imagine your chagrin if you downloaded a pirated app that when it couldn't verify its legitimacy proceeded
to dismantle your system.  Say Stuxnet.  Imagine sites being taken off the air because access to them will be
a criminal offense.  Imagine imposed user fees collected by ISPs as part of the service costs/

I rather hope things don't go that far. My sense of it is the governments of our respective countries will
begin to prosecute as well as fast track litigation and penalize.  If piracy persists, then like spam
sites, there will be raids and seizures.  It will be ugly.  The user fee may be inevitable.  I don't know but it
is certainly being discussed just as the tax on cassette tapes was eventually levied.

So maybe we should spend more time thinking about technical solutions that work instead of philosophical
arguments that lead nowhere.

len

-----Original Message-----
From: Tei [mailto:oscar.vives <at> gmail.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 9:57 AM
To: xml-dev <at> lists.xml.org
Subject: Re: [xml-dev] Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable Internet

On 28 August 2012 14:51, Len Bullard <Len.Bullard <at> ses-i.com> wrote:
..

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Amelia A Lewis | 28 Aug 2012 17:28

RE: Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable Internet

On Tue, 28 Aug 2012 10:13:30 -0500, Len Bullard wrote:
> 
[snipped]

Can I ask what any of this special pleading has to do with XML? Why is 
it on this list?

Amy!
-- 
Amelia A. Lewis                    amyzing {at} talsever.com
    Songs and fame are vain endeavor--
    only two things fail us never,
    only two things last forever--
    sorrow and love, sorrow and love ....
                -- The Last Song of Sirit Byar

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Len Bullard | 28 Aug 2012 17:31

RE: Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable Internet

Because you are.

len

-----Original Message-----
From: Amelia A Lewis [mailto:amyzing <at> talsever.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 10:28 AM
To: xml-dev <at> lists.xml.org
Subject: RE: [xml-dev] Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable
Internet

On Tue, 28 Aug 2012 10:13:30 -0500, Len Bullard wrote:
> 
[snipped]

Can I ask what any of this special pleading has to do with XML? Why is 
it on this list?

Amy!
--

-- 
Amelia A. Lewis                    amyzing {at} talsever.com
    Songs and fame are vain endeavor--
    only two things fail us never,
    only two things last forever--
    sorrow and love, sorrow and love ....
                -- The Last Song of Sirit Byar

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XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS

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Greg Hunt | 28 Aug 2012 21:36

Re: Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable Internet

Amy is right. This is off topic. It is also political content that I find offensive. Mailing lists have a lifecycle and this one got the its end some time ago and I am about to unsubscribe (meaning: don't bother replying).

On Wed, Aug 29, 2012 at 1:31 AM, Len Bullard <Len.Bullard <at> ses-i.com> wrote:

Because you are.

len

-----Original Message-----
From: Amelia A Lewis [mailto:amyzing <at> talsever.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 10:28 AM
To: xml-dev <at> lists.xml.org
Subject: RE: [xml-dev] Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable
Internet

On Tue, 28 Aug 2012 10:13:30 -0500, Len Bullard wrote:
>
[snipped]

Can I ask what any of this special pleading has to do with XML? Why is
it on this list?

Amy!
--
Amelia A. Lewis amyzing {at} talsever.com
Songs and fame are vain endeavor--
only two things fail us never,
only two things last forever--
sorrow and love, sorrow and love ....
-- The Last Song of Sirit Byar

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Len Bullard | 28 Aug 2012 21:46

RE: Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable Internet

It is unlikely Marley was moved by Scrooge’s annoyance.

len

From: Greg Hunt [mailto:greg <at> firmansyah.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 2:36 PM
To: Len Bullard
Cc: Amelia A Lewis; xml-dev <at> lists.xml.org
Subject: Re: [xml-dev] Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable Internet

headers

Uche Ogbuji | 29 Aug 2012 16:53

Re: Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable Internet

Not for long. This silly thread about IP politics has already driven one member from this list, and I suspect more will follow, since it starts to look as if there is no longer anything useful to discuss here. Can you please take this off-topic nonsense elsewhere?

--Uche

On Tue, Aug 28, 2012 at 9:31 AM, Len Bullard <Len.Bullard <at> ses-i.com> wrote:

Because you are.

len

-----Original Message-----
From: Amelia A Lewis [mailto:amyzing <at> talsever.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 10:28 AM
To: xml-dev <at> lists.xml.org
Subject: RE: [xml-dev] Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable
Internet

On Tue, 28 Aug 2012 10:13:30 -0500, Len Bullard wrote:
>
[snipped]

Can I ask what any of this special pleading has to do with XML? Why is
it on this list?

Amy!
--
Amelia A. Lewis amyzing {at} talsever.com
Songs and fame are vain endeavor--
only two things fail us never,
only two things last forever--
sorrow and love, sorrow and love ....
-- The Last Song of Sirit Byar

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--
Uche Ogbuji http://uche.ogbuji.net
Founding Partner, Zepheira http://zepheira.com
http://wearekin.org
http://www.thenervousbreakdown.com/author/uogbuji/
http://copia.ogbuji.net
http://www.linkedin.com/in/ucheogbuji
http://twitter.com/uogbuji

headers

Len Bullard | 29 Aug 2012 17:04

RE: Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable Internet

That’s two.

len

From: Uche Ogbuji [mailto:uche <at> ogbuji.net]
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 9:53 AM
To: xml-dev <at> lists.xml.org
Subject: Re: [xml-dev] Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable Internet

--Uche

On Tue, Aug 28, 2012 at 9:31 AM, Len Bullard <Len.Bullard <at> ses-i.com> wrote:

Because you are.

len

-----Original Message-----
From: Amelia A Lewis [mailto:amyzing <at> talsever.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 10:28 AM
To: xml-dev <at> lists.xml.org
Subject: RE: [xml-dev] Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable
Internet

On Tue, 28 Aug 2012 10:13:30 -0500, Len Bullard wrote:
>
[snipped]

Can I ask what any of this special pleading has to do with XML? Why is
it on this list?

Amy!
--
Amelia A. Lewis amyzing {at} talsever.com
Songs and fame are vain endeavor--
only two things fail us never,
only two things last forever--
sorrow and love, sorrow and love ....
-- The Last Song of Sirit Byar

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Simon St.Laurent | 30 Aug 2012 02:11

Re: Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable Internet

On 8/29/12 10:53 AM, Uche Ogbuji wrote:
> Not for long.  This silly thread about IP politics has already driven
> one member from this list, and I suspect more will follow, since it
> starts to look as if there is no longer anything useful to discuss here.
> Can you please take this off-topic nonsense elsewhere?

Agreed agreed agreed.

--

-- 
Simon St.Laurent
http://simonstl.com/

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Pete Cordell | 30 Aug 2012 11:49

Re: Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable Internet

On 30 August 2012 01:11, Simon St.Laurent <simonstl <at> simonstl.com> wrote:
> On 8/29/12 10:53 AM, Uche Ogbuji wrote:
>>
>> Not for long.  This silly thread about IP politics has already driven
>> one member from this list, and I suspect more will follow, since it
>> starts to look as if there is no longer anything useful to discuss here.
>> Can you please take this off-topic nonsense elsewhere?
>
>
> Agreed agreed agreed.

And further agreed.

But can't help wonder, had the music industry embraced digital
download of music, which is now so clearly what they should have done,
and set a precedent for paying for things on the Internet, how
differently people would interact with the Internet now (oh, and what
the implications for XML would have been!).

Pete Cordell
Codalogic Ltd
Interface XML to C++ the easy way using XML C++
data binding to convert XSD schemas to C++ classes.
Visit http://codalogic.com/lmx/ or http://www.xml2cpp.com
for more info

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Michael Hopwood | 30 Aug 2012 12:13

RE: Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable Internet

Pete,

Since I'm actually working on DDex still at this very minute, I feel a bit duty-bound to repeat my reference
to it...

"... actually there is this: http://ddex.net/release-delivery-0 - it's definitely in use (examples of
implementations here: http://ddex.net/implementing-ddex-standards (see PDF link near page foot)..."

Timing aside, this is real stuff with real consequences for XML and the Internet.

Cheers,

M

-----Original Message-----
From: Pete Cordell [mailto:petexmldev <at> codalogic.com] 
Sent: 30 August 2012 10:50
To: xml-dev <at> lists.xml.org
Subject: Re: [xml-dev] Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable Internet

>>> But can't help wonder, had the music industry embraced digital download of music, which is now so
clearly what they should have done, and set a precedent for paying for things on the Internet, how
differently people would interact with the Internet now (oh, and what the implications for XML would have been!).

Pete Cordell
Codalogic Ltd
Interface XML to C++ the easy way using XML C++ data binding to convert XSD schemas to C++ classes.
Visit http://codalogic.com/lmx/ or http://www.xml2cpp.com for more info

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Len Bullard | 30 Aug 2012 15:05

RE: Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable Internet

Since you forwarded it to Trichordist, Michael, some who work in the
industry will note it.  We've been talking about metadata standards.
There is resistance in some part because previous attempts have failed
and other parts because attempts to begin serious discussions of the
problem meet the same perverse resistance met here from members of the
software community who believe they have a right to those opinions
regardless of how badly informed they are.

They did embrace digital downloads, Pete.  They are fighting piracy just
as the software industry has and does.  It is the "information wants to
be free" quote that is seldom followed by the rest of Brand's admonition
that "information wants to be expensive" that they resist.  A world
class album costs between $250k for a small work to $750k to produce and
that is before any pressings, marketing or other expenses.

It will be interesting to see how many software experts continue to
defend piracy because they are "offended" by the discussion.  This is a
list that will debate "worse is better" and any number of other
absurdities but resolutely refuses to recognize the social disorders
they have created.  It doesn't speak well of the community and I do have
the right to express that opinion regardless of how treated for it and
in contrast to some here, I am uniquely well informed.

If XML isn't relevant, then Hunt was right.  This technology is done and
it little matters what is discussed here on a public list.

len

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Hopwood [mailto:michael <at> editeur.org] 
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 5:14 AM
To: Pete Cordell; xml-dev <at> lists.xml.org
Subject: RE: [xml-dev] Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable
Internet

Pete,

Since I'm actually working on DDex still at this very minute, I feel a
bit duty-bound to repeat my reference to it...

"... actually there is this: http://ddex.net/release-delivery-0 - it's
definitely in use (examples of implementations here:
http://ddex.net/implementing-ddex-standards (see PDF link near page
foot)..."

Timing aside, this is real stuff with real consequences for XML and the
Internet.

Cheers,

M

-----Original Message-----
From: Pete Cordell [mailto:petexmldev <at> codalogic.com] 
Sent: 30 August 2012 10:50
To: xml-dev <at> lists.xml.org
Subject: Re: [xml-dev] Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable
Internet

>>> But can't help wonder, had the music industry embraced digital
download of music, which is now so clearly what they should have done,
and set a precedent for paying for things on the Internet, how
differently people would interact with the Internet now (oh, and what
the implications for XML would have been!).

Pete Cordell
Codalogic Ltd
Interface XML to C++ the easy way using XML C++ data binding to convert
XSD schemas to C++ classes.
Visit http://codalogic.com/lmx/ or http://www.xml2cpp.com for more info

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Liam R E Quin | 28 Aug 2012 23:32

RE: Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable Internet - XML

On Tue, 2012-08-28 at 10:13 -0500, Len Bullard wrote:
> Bogus.
> 
> People steal because there are no consequences.

Stealing is the act of taking something away from someone else.

If I copy music I do not take away the original: it is not the music
that is stolen but the distributor's opportunity to charge me for it.
But in fact if it's made possible there's no reason to suppose I won't
pay for it in some other way.

Len, your arguments were made when radio came along, that it would end
concerts and music and there would be no more musicians, and it was as
short-sighted then as it is now.

Where this becomes relevant to XML is that we need to provide ways of
enabling people to pay, ways to embed suitable metadata and to make it
easy, ways for people to know "there's a concert in your town next month
where The Dog Turds will be playing, and you listen to them so much that
the integrated circuits in your iPod have started to smell bad"

I don't think I believe the vague intimations of conspiracy. There are
more people making music now than ever before - just fewer sales through
the large distributors.

The real enemies as I see it _are_ the distributors, tightening their
stranglehold on distribution to try and prevent people from being
exposed to music that they don't control. Taking down independent
musicians from youtube. Striking deals with mobile ISPs to promote their
music and make it hard or impossible to get to other outlets. Just as
the mainstream media in the US no longer shows the Occupy movement.

Another question for the Web and XML crowd - what happens when facebook,
google plus, blog sites, are the only way to enter content unless you
work at a large company with a Web Broadcast Licence? Don't laugh - it
happened to radio, it happened to television, and it'll happen to the
Web.

Liam

--

-- 
Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/
Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/
Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org freenode/#xml

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Len Bullard | 29 Aug 2012 01:50

RE: Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable Internet - XML

From: Liam R E Quin [mailto:liam <at> w3.org] 

On Tue, 2012-08-28 at 10:13 -0500, Len Bullard wrote:
> Bogus.
> 
> People steal because there are no consequences.

>Stealing is the act of taking something away from someone else.

>If I copy music I do not take away the original: it is not the music
>that is stolen but the distributor's opportunity to charge me for it.
>But in fact if it's made possible there's no reason to suppose I won't
>pay for it in some other way.

With all due respect, Liam, that argument is as legally unsound now as it
was when first made.  See the US Constitution with regards to the right of
copy.  I know that is US law but international copyright conventions are
also in effect. 

However, yes, this is about payment for distribution or right of copy.
Stealing is stealing when the copier profits by having made and distributed
illegal copies.  We grind this as long as you like, but I'd prefer you read
the Trichordist articles because David Lowery and his staff at the
University do a very competent job of explaining the legal issues, the
history and the history of the web and faulty assumptions.  It will save
quite a bit of bandwidth here.

>Len, your arguments were made when radio came along, that it would end
>concerts and music and there would be no more musicians, and it was as
>short-sighted then as it is now.

In fact, radio did reduce those opportunities and impacted both the kind and
quality of music available as well as the skills which were more prevalent
before radio when a piano was in every parlor.  The copyright impact was on
sales of printed music.  However, this is not the point.  After some period,
radio was made to pay royalties for performance rights.  Then when cassettes
came along, a fee was levied into the price of a cassette that was
distributed by the same performance collection groups, eg. ASCAP, BMI, etc.
The historical norm is when a new means of distribution comes along, means
both legal and technical are devised to ensure proper protection of legal
rights and collections.

>Where this becomes relevant to XML is that we need to provide ways of
>enabling people to pay, ways to embed suitable metadata and to make it
>easy, ways for people to know "there's a concert in your town next month
>where The Dog Turds will be playing, and you listen to them so much that
>the integrated circuits in your iPod have started to smell bad"

We agree but until such time as a transparent means is available, a layered
coordination among principals and agencies is underway to stop the piracy.
That is intensifying.

>I don't think I believe the vague intimations of conspiracy. There are
>more people making music now than ever before - just fewer sales through
>the large distributors.

See the screenshots at the Trichordist blog.  Again, companies are taking
actions to stop their ad revenues being applied to pirate sites.  Google is
also revoking their revenue streams. My sense of things is we will see more
legislation and it is up to all of us to sort out issues of legitimate
concern for rights protection and other issues such as potential censorship
through use of the same or similar means.  I think the entertainment
industry is every bit as concerned about the members of Pussy Riot as the
rest of us.

>The real enemies as I see it _are_ the distributors, tightening their
>stranglehold on distribution to try and prevent people from being
>exposed to music that they don't control. Taking down independent
>musicians from youtube. 

You will need to present evidence of that.  I have quite a few original
songs at YouTube.  No one has tried to take my original music off the web.
I can't monetize them all because Google algorithms for that are tres
strange but that is a different topic.  I agree that a more standard set of
metadata and clear legal policies are helpful.  At this time the search
engine vendors are winging it.

>Striking deals with mobile ISPs to promote their
>music and make it hard or impossible to get to other outlets. Just as
>the mainstream media in the US no longer shows the Occupy movement.

Again, evidence of the former is needed but I don't doubt some server farms
are as controlled as some labels are.  The mainstream media and Occupy are a
different contentious issue.  Again this is a distraction from the problems
of content piracy on the web.  I do think the music labels did themselves
harm with their initial lawsuits and have said so.  Do understand that this
is no longer about music only.  This is the entertainment industry stepping
up including the movie industry which according to industry sources has
begun to schedule fewer releases as they also see what is coming in the
piracy domain and are working to offset that.  As one producer put it, they
are "bunkered down".

>Another question for the Web and XML crowd - what happens when facebook,
>google plus, blog sites, are the only way to enter content unless you
>work at a large company with a Web Broadcast Licence? Don't laugh - it
>happened to radio, it happened to television, and it'll happen to the
>Web.

I think that is up to us.  No one can stop you from setting up a server but
if licensing does prevent that, we have a new problem to solve.  Yet the
what-ifs are not the issue and should not stop us from working toward
equitable solutions today because otherwise we will be facing less equitable
and more draconian measures.

Thanks for the reasonableness of your reply, Liam.

len

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Liam R E Quin | 29 Aug 2012 02:39

RE: Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable Internet - XML

On Tue, 2012-08-28 at 18:50 -0500, Len Bullard wrote:
> From: Liam R E Quin [mailto:liam <at> w3.org] 
>  
> On Tue, 2012-08-28 at 10:13 -0500, Len Bullard wrote:
> > Bogus.
> > 
> > People steal because there are no consequences.
> 
> >Stealing is the act of taking something away from someone else.
> 
> >If I copy music I do not take away the original: it is not the music
> >that is stolen but the distributor's opportunity to charge me for it.
> >But in fact if it's made possible there's no reason to suppose I won't
> >pay for it in some other way.
> 
> With all due respect, Liam, that argument is as legally unsound now as it
> was when first made.

Sure, copyright exists; it's the decision of the copyright owner whether
to redistribute. However, the person violating copyright is not stealing
the music but rather something intangible.

> However, yes, this is about payment for distribution or right of copy.
> Stealing is stealing when the copier profits by having made and distributed
> illegal copies.

Yes.

> The historical norm is when a new means of distribution comes along, means
> both legal and technical are devised to ensure proper protection of legal
> rights and collections.

Yes. E.g. the tax on blank CDs here in Canada means people have a right
to share music on CDs.

[...]
> >Another question for the Web and XML crowd - what happens when facebook,
> >google plus, blog sites, are the only way to enter content unless you
> >work at a large company with a Web Broadcast Licence? Don't laugh - it
> >happened to radio, it happened to television, and it'll happen to the
> >Web.
> 
> I think that is up to us.  No one can stop you from setting up a server but
> if licensing does prevent that, we have a new problem to solve.
I think it will happen, yes.

>   Yet the
> what-ifs are not the issue and should not stop us from working toward
> equitable solutions today because otherwise we will be facing less equitable
> and more draconian measures.

Also true.

Liam

--

-- 
Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/
Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/
Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org freenode/#xml
Co-conspirator, 5th edition of 'Beginning XML", Wrox, July 2012

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Michael Kay | 29 Aug 2012 09:52

Re: Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable Internet - XML


>> If I copy music I do not take away the original: it is not the music
>> that is stolen but the distributor's opportunity to charge me for it.
>> But in fact if it's made possible there's no reason to suppose I won't
>> pay for it in some other way.
> With all due respect, Liam, that argument is as legally unsound now as it
> was when first made.

It's perfectly sound in the UK. Theft and copyright infringement are 
completely unrelated offences. Anyone who tells you copyright 
infringement is theft is lying. Both are illegal, but they are not the 
same thing.

Michael Kay
Saxonica

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Andrew Welch | 29 Aug 2012 11:29

Re: Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable Internet - XML

On 29 August 2012 08:52, Michael Kay <mike <at> saxonica.com> wrote:
>
>>> If I copy music I do not take away the original: it is not the music
>>> that is stolen but the distributor's opportunity to charge me for it.
>>> But in fact if it's made possible there's no reason to suppose I won't
>>> pay for it in some other way.
>>
>> With all due respect, Liam, that argument is as legally unsound now as it
>> was when first made.
>
>
> It's perfectly sound in the UK. Theft and copyright infringement are
> completely unrelated offences. Anyone who tells you copyright infringement
> is theft is lying. Both are illegal, but they are not the same thing.

It's because theft is defined as the "intent to permanently deprive"
the person of the item...  which is hard to do when it's a digital
copy.

--

-- 
Andrew Welch
http://andrewjwelch.com

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Len Bullard | 29 Aug 2012 14:54

RE: Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable Internet - XML

A difference that makes no difference.  Weasel speak.

len

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Kay [mailto:mike <at> saxonica.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 2:53 AM
To: xml-dev <at> lists.xml.org
Subject: Re: [xml-dev] Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable
Internet - XML

>> If I copy music I do not take away the original: it is not the music
>> that is stolen but the distributor's opportunity to charge me for it.
>> But in fact if it's made possible there's no reason to suppose I
won't
>> pay for it in some other way.
> With all due respect, Liam, that argument is as legally unsound now as
it
> was when first made.

It's perfectly sound in the UK. Theft and copyright infringement are 
completely unrelated offences. Anyone who tells you copyright 
infringement is theft is lying. Both are illegal, but they are not the 
same thing.

Michael Kay
Saxonica

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Michael Kay | 29 Aug 2012 15:38

Re: Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable Internet - XML

On 29/08/2012 13:54, Len Bullard wrote:
> A difference that makes no difference.  Weasel speak.
>
>

It makes a vast difference. It affects how and where cases are tried, 
what standards of proof are required, what evidence is acceptable in 
court, what the penalties are for wrongdoers, whether or not prosecutors 
consider it in the public interest to prosecute, ... you name it.

You might as well say there's no difference between speeding and murder.

Michael Kay
Saxonica

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Len Bullard | 29 Aug 2012 16:22

RE: Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable Internet - XML

When you steal a man's livelihood and reputation, it hardly matters to
him if you run over a dog speeding away from the scene of the crime.

Let's put the Saxon libraries on an ad-supported site that sells
pornography and fake pharmaceuticals.   We'll be sure to put your name
on the hyperlinks  next to the pictures of the big breasts and the fake
Viagra.

It's theft.  If the lawyers want a different venue, they can have one.
But I do think it better to find ways to protect property than to
destroy servers because weaseling is more important than property if it
wins a debate on the Internet.

len

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Kay [mailto:mike <at> saxonica.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 8:38 AM
To: xml-dev <at> lists.xml.org
Subject: Re: [xml-dev] Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable
Internet - XML

On 29/08/2012 13:54, Len Bullard wrote:
> A difference that makes no difference.  Weasel speak.
>
>

It makes a vast difference. It affects how and where cases are tried, 
what standards of proof are required, what evidence is acceptable in 
court, what the penalties are for wrongdoers, whether or not prosecutors

consider it in the public interest to prosecute, ... you name it.

You might as well say there's no difference between speeding and murder.

Michael Kay
Saxonica

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Michael Kay | 29 Aug 2012 16:35

Re: Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable Internet - XML


I didn't say copyright infringement is right or that it's defensible. I 
said it was not theft. There are very good reasons why the law 
distinguishes different offences (and in particular, why it 
distinguishes civil from criminal offences), and it does no-one a 
service to pretend that all offenses are equivalent.

 From a practical point of view they are different as well. If some-one 
steals my laptop, it costs me money to replace it. If someone uses an 
evaluation license of my software for something that's outside the terms 
of an evaluation license, they are getting a free ride, but nine times 
out of ten it's probably not costing me anything because if I asked them 
to either desist or to pay up, they would choose to desist.

Michael Kay
Saxonica

On 29/08/2012 15:22, Len Bullard wrote:
> When you steal a man's livelihood and reputation, it hardly matters to
> him if you run over a dog speeding away from the scene of the crime.
>
> Let's put the Saxon libraries on an ad-supported site that sells
> pornography and fake pharmaceuticals.   We'll be sure to put your name
> on the hyperlinks  next to the pictures of the big breasts and the fake
> Viagra.
>
> It's theft.  If the lawyers want a different venue, they can have one.
> But I do think it better to find ways to protect property than to
> destroy servers because weaseling is more important than property if it
> wins a debate on the Internet.
>
> len
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Kay [mailto:mike <at> saxonica.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 8:38 AM
> To: xml-dev <at> lists.xml.org
> Subject: Re: [xml-dev] Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable
> Internet - XML
>
>
> On 29/08/2012 13:54, Len Bullard wrote:
>> A difference that makes no difference.  Weasel speak.
>>
>>
> It makes a vast difference. It affects how and where cases are tried,
> what standards of proof are required, what evidence is acceptable in
> court, what the penalties are for wrongdoers, whether or not prosecutors
>
> consider it in the public interest to prosecute, ... you name it.
>
> You might as well say there's no difference between speeding and murder.
>
> Michael Kay
> Saxonica
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
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John Cowan | 29 Aug 2012 17:16

Re: Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable Internet - XML

Michael Kay scripsit:

> If someone uses an evaluation license of my software for something
> that's outside the terms of an evaluation license, they are getting
> a free ride, but nine times out of ten it's probably not costing me
> anything because if I asked them to either desist or to pay up, they
> would choose to desist.

Not always.  When I worked for Reuters Health, our salesfolk would look
for people who were publishing our news on their web sites and call
them up, advising them that they were in breach of our copyrights.

Surprisingly to me, most of them were more than happy to pay up; they
simply had had no idea that there was anyone they ought to pay.  After
all, companies don't put something on their sites that they don't think
adds value.  As far as I know, not one company replied "So sue me."

--

-- 
They tried to pierce your heart                 John Cowan
with a Morgul-knife that remains in the         http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
wound.  If they had succeeded, you would
become a wraith under the domination of the Dark Lord.         --Gandalf

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Len Bullard | 29 Aug 2012 17:34

RE: Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable Internet - XML

Unfortunately, john, that is almost precisely what the Kim Dotcom's of
the web are saying to the entertainment industry.

I'm one of the few here with feet in both industries.  As a result,
sometimes heavy weights chat with me.   I needed a sample of responses
from folk on this side of the fence to answer some questions. I have
that.  The range and types are as expected.  Thanks.

len

-----Original Message-----
From: John Cowan [mailto:cowan <at> ccil.org] On Behalf Of John Cowan
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 10:16 AM
To: Michael Kay
Cc: Len Bullard; xml-dev <at> lists.xml.org
Subject: Re: [xml-dev] Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable
Internet - XML

Michael Kay scripsit:

> If someone uses an evaluation license of my software for something
> that's outside the terms of an evaluation license, they are getting
> a free ride, but nine times out of ten it's probably not costing me
> anything because if I asked them to either desist or to pay up, they
> would choose to desist.

Not always.  When I worked for Reuters Health, our salesfolk would look
for people who were publishing our news on their web sites and call
them up, advising them that they were in breach of our copyrights.

Surprisingly to me, most of them were more than happy to pay up; they
simply had had no idea that there was anyone they ought to pay.  After
all, companies don't put something on their sites that they don't think
adds value.  As far as I know, not one company replied "So sue me."

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Len Bullard | 29 Aug 2012 17:28

RE: Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable Internet - XML

And again, it is a difference that makes no difference to the offended.
What does no one a service is a panglossian approach to very real
problems.  Lawyers will work out the details of litigations.  Computer
scientists with a moral compass may wish to work on solutions to the
problems they created.

Your practical point of view is limited.  If you have an evaluation copy
of say "The Hunger Games" you likely have a watermarked id'd copy that
if it leaves your possession will be traced.   On the other hand, you
won't get it back and the people who steal it won't desist.  As the
value of a thing goes up, so does the profit for distributing copies of
it illegally.  That is the situation the entertainment industry finds
itself in.  The sea change is because the technology is improving, the
profits possible from even more expensive to produce media are
increasing.   First it was code and text, then pictures, then audio and
now movies.  Digital watermarking and fingerprinting aren't enough.   We
need a change from the leaders of the web communities with respect to
piracy.  Is that political or is it simply good manners, common sense
and respect?

The entertainment industry has had enough.  Several prominent musicians
and composers that were prominently touted in the London Olympics sent a
letter to your prime minister about enforcement.  Pirate sites are going
to be blacked out.  If an ISP serves them, they lose their license.
Customers of ad vendors are going to be humiliated publicly and if the
ad vendors are commercially licensed, they are going to be prosecuted.
Tim Bray wants to call it a "censorship code" because some government
might use it badly.  They might.  On the other hand, do they have a
choice given the same technology that enables the pirates was created by
the same people who will cry about censorship?  They may want to make
that choice a bit more wisely before their names go next to the names of
the companies that aid and profit by piracy... publicly, loudly and with
all the fanfare social media can muster.

At some point somewhere if not here in this oh so delicately cloistered
list of the easily offended because well they got theirs, you will be
looking at a very damaged internet and web of technology so unable to
function that we may as well go back to snail mail and UPS.  A pale
horse is riding in and hell will follow.

Thanks. I have what I needed.

len

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Kay [mailto:mike <at> saxonica.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 9:35 AM
To: Len Bullard
Cc: xml-dev <at> lists.xml.org
Subject: Re: [xml-dev] Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable
Internet - XML

I didn't say copyright infringement is right or that it's defensible. I 
said it was not theft. There are very good reasons why the law 
distinguishes different offences (and in particular, why it 
distinguishes civil from criminal offences), and it does no-one a 
service to pretend that all offenses are equivalent.

 From a practical point of view they are different as well. If some-one 
steals my laptop, it costs me money to replace it. If someone uses an 
evaluation license of my software for something that's outside the terms

of an evaluation license, they are getting a free ride, but nine times 
out of ten it's probably not costing me anything because if I asked them

to either desist or to pay up, they would choose to desist.

Michael Kay
Saxonica

On 29/08/2012 15:22, Len Bullard wrote:
> When you steal a man's livelihood and reputation, it hardly matters to
> him if you run over a dog speeding away from the scene of the crime.
>
> Let's put the Saxon libraries on an ad-supported site that sells
> pornography and fake pharmaceuticals.   We'll be sure to put your name
> on the hyperlinks  next to the pictures of the big breasts and the
fake
> Viagra.
>
> It's theft.  If the lawyers want a different venue, they can have one.
> But I do think it better to find ways to protect property than to
> destroy servers because weaseling is more important than property if
it
> wins a debate on the Internet.
>
> len
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Kay [mailto:mike <at> saxonica.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 8:38 AM
> To: xml-dev <at> lists.xml.org
> Subject: Re: [xml-dev] Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable
> Internet - XML
>
>
> On 29/08/2012 13:54, Len Bullard wrote:
>> A difference that makes no difference.  Weasel speak.
>>
>>
> It makes a vast difference. It affects how and where cases are tried,
> what standards of proof are required, what evidence is acceptable in
> court, what the penalties are for wrongdoers, whether or not
prosecutors
>
> consider it in the public interest to prosecute, ... you name it.
>
> You might as well say there's no difference between speeding and
murder.
>
> Michael Kay
> Saxonica
>
>
_______________________________________________________________________
>
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Tei | 29 Aug 2012 11:26

Re: Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable Internet - XML

On 28 August 2012 23:32, Liam R E Quin <liam <at> w3.org> wrote:
...
>
> Where this becomes relevant to XML is that we need to provide ways of
> enabling people to pay, ways to embed suitable metadata and to make it
> easy, ways for people to know "there's a concert in your town next month
> where The Dog Turds will be playing, and you listen to them so much that
> the integrated circuits in your iPod have started to smell bad"
>

A possible field in metadata that can be interesting, is a url to a RSS feed.

So when a iPod or other device is playing music from The Dog Turn,  it
shows the feed.... maybe with information about what city the next
concert will be, or perhaps the feed can be filled with ads. So
somebody would pay money to the group, so maybe 200.000 persons would
be reading that in the iPod.  Musicians can use this channel to
promote other similar musicians, this is very important.  If you play
banjo, and you recommend two other banjo musicians, the group of
people that enjoy banjo music will grown, and you will have more
people buying your music;  people is trapped in the network effect of
a lot of pop singers, not because pop is the best music. If you like
pop, you have a variety of singers,and some of them do the pop thing
very good. Its rewarding to enjoy pop.

Recently, I have seen this effect with Indie games.   Indie games used
to be a very rare thing, with few artist, the distribution limited to
friends & family.  Now indie games is "a thing", there are indiegames
blogs,  people know what to expect from a indie game and have good
experiences with them.  The likeness of people to buy another indie
game is very high, because are cheap games and people love the
crazyness and originality in design.   A single indie game dev have
the marketing muscle of almost nothing, but 4 or 5 can combine efforts
and do one of these "Humble Indie Game Sales" and get frontpage news
in sites like slashdot, that maybe have 1 million readers.   Getting
that website endorsement can result in  ~30K $ average/site [1]. So
one of these "Humble Indie Games" can make 1 million dollars [2].   So
why musicians are not promoting other musicians??   is money left on
the table.  If you have 20K fans, and other dude have 130K, and other
dude have 200 K, you could build a group of 310K to buy your stuff.
Another thing is that 1 million dollars is nothing for a big
publisher, but for 4 indie game dev guys is a lot of money.

A lot of how some information industries work ( journalism, music,
movies, etc.. ) is self defeating and favour big titles, but would
kill medium size or small ones. Using these self-defeating rules the
game is ringed, but is possible to use technology to change the rules,
and then become a win. A lot of people should start changing the rules
of the game, and stop crying about the ruined milk.   I respect when
some authors say "thief"... I know where that claim come from, is a
feeling, but strictly speaking in not correct, and is not building
towards a solution.

[1]
http://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/projects/270437/posts/295069/image-151647-full.jpg?1345848434

[2]
http://mashable.com/2012/06/01/humble-indie-bundle-reddit/

--

-- 
--
ℱin del ℳensaje.

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Len Bullard | 29 Aug 2012 15:23

RE: Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable Internet - XML

This isn't about advertising your software or game.  This is about
illegally copying them and then distributing them on a site that sells
ads.

I tell you what:  let's get copies of Mike Kay's Saxon libraries and put
them on a site for free downloads.  That site will be paid for by ad
revenue from commercial ad servers but the advertised products will be
pornography and deadly fake pharmaceuticals.

Of course, it isn't theft.  That software is free.  Problem solved.  Now
drink the milk.

len

-----Original Message-----
From: Tei [mailto:oscar.vives <at> gmail.com] 

A lot of how some information industries work ( journalism, music,
movies, etc.. ) is self defeating and favour big titles, but would
kill medium size or small ones. Using these self-defeating rules the
game is ringed, but is possible to use technology to change the rules,
and then become a win. A lot of people should start changing the rules
of the game, and stop crying about the ruined milk.   I respect when
some authors say "thief"... I know where that claim come from, is a
feeling, but strictly speaking in not correct, and is not building
towards a solution.

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Tei | 29 Aug 2012 18:51

Re: Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable Internet - XML

On 29 August 2012 06:23, Len Bullard <Len.Bullard <at> ses-i.com> wrote:
> This isn't about advertising your software or game.  This is about
> illegally copying them and then distributing them on a site that sells
> ads.
>

By distributing that software without asking money, these companies
prove that theres a market for it, that is possible to make money just
distributing software with ads.  Adobe or Microsoft could make money
the same way.  Adobe could let people download Dreamweaver 3.0 from
his website, and use ads to make money from these downloads.

What Adobe really do, is to ask maybe 3000 $ for a license, and expect
the 99% of people (students that have maybe only 4$ to pay for
software)  to warez Photoshop. The business model of Adobe is the 1%
pay 3000$, and the other 99% warez it.  It seems good enough for
Adobe, but I have zero sympathy for it.  I would like more a system
that don't imply people warezing stuff.   In any case, the Adobe model
seems to work for Adobe.   100% of all graphic designers know how to
use Adobe, and may not know how to use Gimp, so this force a webmaster
studio to buy a license.

> I tell you what:  let's get copies of Mike Kay's Saxon libraries and put
> them on a site for free downloads.  That site will be paid for by ad
> revenue from commercial ad servers but the advertised products will be
> pornography and deadly fake pharmaceuticals.

Another service that pirates do, is classification of software.
Generally these websites are well designed, and include screenshots, a
review of the product. Anyone tryiing to "steal" his bussines model
sould read these pages and copy all the good ideas to how to tell
people about software.  I am a great fan of things done well, and
warez webpages sell software incredible well.   Steam game pages are
also very good, but maybe iTunes pages can have a improvement...
Somebody has worked hard, and used his talent, to classify all these
images, make or find these screenshots. That is a service.  Companies
exist to provide services and make money doing it, and if the pirates
are doing it, is because nobody else is doing it.  if you can't stop
distribution, you should be the one doing it.

Everyone I know used to pirate games, but now buy them at steam.  The
more "cheap"  ones just wait for a sale, so the game that I have paid
50$, then pay 5$,  but is still making money for the creators (or the
publishers),  and (of course)  Steam basically swim in money. Because
this is the way to sell information at people, and the way to make
lots of money.   iTunes is probably also doing a lot of money for
Apple, with all these gratis games and stuff.  This must be shocking
for some people, how can selling gratis games can make money for
Apple?  If something is free, how can make it money!?, It must be a
mystery.

In the case of XML and some librarie.  Well.  Open Source devs used to
make libraries for his own motives, but theres a way to monetize it
now.  You can start a Kisktarted project, and invite people to pay for
the budget to create the librarie X to do something Y.   If people
really want to solve Y with X, will pocket some money, and if enough
people want that (or want to help the author)  then the project will
achieve the monetary goal.

Another open source company can give a complex software for free, but
offer services, and put a cost of these services (maybe 100$/hour).
Wow, another gratis software!, these people must be crazy!.  This
company can get this software and install it on some company, and give
the software for free, but bill the hours of service to install it /
configure it and so on.

If you market is made of a almost 99% of people that don't want to pay
for software, you have, and perhaps you can find a way, to bill people
for other stuff that is not selling then a box with a printed cd
inside.

> Of course, it isn't theft.  That software is free.  Problem solved.  Now
> drink the milk.

The milk is warm and tasty, thanks :D

>
> len

--

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Len Bullard | 29 Aug 2012 19:10

RE: Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable Internet - XML

If Adobe chooses to do that, they can.  They own the rights.  Perfectly
legal.  If Katy Perry's label chooses to let her image and music be
displayed next to ads for fake Viagra, they can do that.  But they
won't.

And if someone does either and hasn't and profits by them, it's illegal,
it's theft and they will be prosecuted.  If they persist, their assets
will be disabled and seized much as happened recently to a spam botnet
previously assumed to be invulnerable.  Sites that can't seized for
reasons of jurisdiction will be blacked out.  It's a matter of patience
and having a good forensics team in place backed by the proper
authorities.  See China.

I don't think anyone is eager for this.  The problem is the pirates are
stealing and a culture of indifference has been spawned on the web of
which there have been several citable examples here.  Yet the era of
geek chic ended five years ago.  When Sir Tim Berners-Lee appeared on TV
during the Olympics, few knew who he was or is.   The era of fighting
web piracy by any means necessary is just starting and the people who
are stepping up to fight it have far more name recognition and loyal
audiences.  Social media sites can turn web heroes into villains
overnight.   The web is an amplifier.  Nothing more.

J.P. Barlow has intoxicating ideas and for awhile we all enjoyed the
buzz, but he was and is Dead wrong.  If anyone wants to keep this up,
sure; but I think the viewpoints are pretty well represented.

"Words ought to be a little wild for they are the assaults of thought on
the unthinking."  - John Maynard Keynes

len

-----Original Message-----
From: Tei [mailto:oscar.vives <at> gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 11:51 AM
To: Len Bullard
Cc: xml-dev <at> lists.xml.org
Subject: Re: [xml-dev] Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable
Internet - XML

> Of course, it isn't theft.  That software is free.  Problem solved.
Now
> drink the milk.

The milk is warm and tasty, thanks :D

>
> len

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Len Bullard | 30 Aug 2012 04:32

RE: Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable Internet - XML


Liam said:  Len, your arguments were made when radio came along, that it
would end concerts and music and there would be no more musicians, and it
was as short-sighted then as it is now.

A very knowledgeable industry insider replied, Liam:

"The broadcasters were persuaded to share their advertising revenue with the
music community, one of the things that led to what might now be looked at
as a golden age of music in this culture.  Google bills about thirty billion
dollars a year in advertising.  Ten percent of their searches are music
related.  (Music is the second ranked search category after the weather.)
Google shared none of that revenue with the community who drove ten percent
of their traffic.  Not to mention that they link to and sell advertising on
pirate sites

They really want to starve us out.  The revenge of the nerds, starting with
that guy at Napster.  Odd that the target of their wrath would be the arts.
Sciences' war on the Arts."

len

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Amelia A Lewis | 30 Aug 2012 05:04

RE: Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable Internet - XML

On Wed, 29 Aug 2012 21:32:03 -0500, Len Bullard wrote:
> 
[snip]

It seemed obvious to me, from the first message in this thread, that 
there was no desire to initiate a discussion, but only to set forth an 
agenda, and to excoriate those who deviated.

I have been quite surprised to see the sanity of replies on this 
thread, considering the radical position adopted by the original 
poster, and his discourtesy to those who dared disagree on the 
slightest point. I attribute this to the respect that Len Bullard has 
in the XML community, which leads to soft words even when his words, 
presented by any other, would be dismissed as trolling.

Regardless, it doesn't belong here. This is a list for xml developers, 
to discuss xml-related issues. Issues of intellectual property may have 
a role, but the more general discussion of business models and legal 
issues around intellectual property as such simply ... doesn't. It 
doesn't, regardless of whether some members of the list may have 
interests in that area.

To the best of my knowledge and belief, music is not distributed in a 
form related to an xml technology. Digital restriction management may 
use xml; if so, let's hear something about that technology, and its 
successes and shortcomings. Lawyers may be using xml technology in the 
prosecution of cases; that, too, might be of interest to the developers 
on the list.

Moral indignation on behalf of those unrighteously deprived of their 
holy profits? Not so much, in my opinion.

Amy!
--

-- 
Amelia A. Lewis                    amyzing {at} talsever.com
There's someone in my head, but it's not me.
                -- Pink Floyd

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Christopher R. Maden | 30 Aug 2012 05:45

Re: Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable Internet - XML


+1

I was striving not to reply so as not to waste bandwidth, but that now
seems to have been futile.

Stop, please: Len, and everyone replying to him.

On 08/29/2012 11:04 PM, Amelia A Lewis wrote:
> Regardless, it doesn't belong here.

~Chris
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LIVE FREE: vote for Gary Johnson, Libertarian for President.
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Michael Hopwood | 30 Aug 2012 10:00

RE: Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable Internet - XML

Thanks Amy,

I agree that anything not directly XML-related is in serious danger of getting totally off-topic and thus
clogging up this list...

>>> To the best of my knowledge and belief, music is not distributed in a form related to an xml technology.

Well, actually there is this: http://ddex.net/release-delivery-0 - it's definitely in use (examples of
implementations here: http://ddex.net/implementing-ddex-standards (see PDF link near page foot)...

"release delivery" here is absolutely to do with music distribution, and you will find the associated XML
schemas and data dictionaries etc. for each standard there too :)

Great timing mentioning this - I'm currently doing a big piece of work on the DDex schema(s) and marvelling
at this complex and subtle piece of XML engineering... hope others find it interesting too.

I hope I've been one of the posters giving sane and moderate responses to Len's original post and it will be
clear that XML is one technology in current use to actually address some of the issues he raises (even if
this is not really the forum to do so).

Cheers,

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: Amelia A Lewis [mailto:amyzing <at> talsever.com] 
Sent: 30 August 2012 04:04
To: xml-dev <at> lists.xml.org
Subject: RE: [xml-dev] Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable Internet - XML

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Len Bullard | 30 Aug 2012 14:49

RE: Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable Internet - XML

For XML experts, you are a poorly informed bunch.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MusicXML

I have been surprised by the depth of scorn heaped on the creative
industries by those whose companies benefit from them monetarily and by
means both criminal and merciless.

No matter.  This is what lawyers are for.

len

From: Amelia A Lewis [mailto:amyzing <at> talsever.com] 

To the best of my knowledge and belief, music is not distributed in a 
form related to an xml technology. Digital restriction management may 
use xml; if so, let's hear something about that technology, and its 
successes and shortcomings. Lawyers may be using xml technology in the 
prosecution of cases; that, too, might be of interest to the developers 
on the list.

Moral indignation on behalf of those unrighteously deprived of their 
holy profits? Not so much, in my opinion.

Amy!
--

-- 
Amelia A. Lewis                    amyzing {at} talsever.com
There's someone in my head, but it's not me.
                -- Pink Floyd

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Michael Kay | 30 Aug 2012 15:16

Re: Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable Internet - XML


On 30/08/2012 13:49, Len Bullard wrote:
> For XML experts, you are a poorly informed bunch.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MusicXML
>
While there are some brave souls pushing MusicXML as a distribution 
format, it hasn't really made a significant impact in that role yet. See 
for example http://www.makemusic.com/musicxml/music, which by 
advertising what's available makes it clear that it's not very much. If 
you want a particular score, you are much more likely to find it in PDF 
or in a proprietary format such as Finale or Sibelius.

Len, Amy is right to point out that you are being a little bit arrogant 
this week.

Michael Kay
Saxonica
>
>
> From: Amelia A Lewis [mailto:amyzing <at> talsever.com]
>
> To the best of my knowledge and belief, music is not distributed in a
> form related to an xml technology. Digital restriction management may
> use xml; if so, let's hear something about that technology, and its
> successes and shortcomings. Lawyers may be using xml technology in the
> prosecution of cases; that, too, might be of interest to the developers
> on the list.
>
> Moral indignation on behalf of those unrighteously deprived of their
> holy profits? Not so much, in my opinion.
>
> Amy!

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Len Bullard | 30 Aug 2012 15:47

RE: Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable Internet - XML

I agree with the arrogant part, Mike.  I'm not very concerned about it.
See quote from Keynes.   Whereas the cooler heads in the entertainment
industry tried to be reasonable, the harsh and ill-informed responses
from the web industry have led most to believe the web industry will
have to be bitch-slapped into near unconsciousness before they will own
up to their responsibilities. By contrast to other debates I've seen in
the last five years, this is quite relaxed.  The quote I sent to Liam
was a calm response from one of the world's top music producers whose
name you would recognize.  Their patience with this is much thinner than
the skins here.  If XML can help solve problems, that is good. If not,
then XML is irrelevant.

To XML:

As someone who does score original compositions, the import and export
into and out of Finale and/or Sibelius are very important.  Submissions
are made with PDF for the first review so a publisher can determine if
they want to pursue it further.  After the first review, there is a
process of editing the score with the publisher in accordance with their
opinions about what will sell.  How the files are exchanged depends on
what the publisher prefers and the composer has.  XML is a last resort
but it works and can be applied to non-print composition work.  I don't
know if anyone is experimenting with XSLT driving a la Cage, but it
might be fun.  I have used the XML from time to time when exchanging
scores with others.

Most of the print market is religious and academic where they need to
sell at least 10k copies at average $1 USD per copy because they will
spend around 10k for printing a first run.  They also have to absorb the
illegal copying at the Xerox machines but they will absorb that in small
amounts just as the recording industry absorbs the party mix discs,
wedding videos, and so on.  Without an import/export format, we are
stuck the same way WYSIWYG publishers are.  At print time, they do use
the native formats of course and render to PDF for online distribution
in some cases.  Most won't do that for full scores openly because, of
course, theft on the Internet is pervasive.  What is common is a first
or maybe two pages of the score and an mp3 rendering.  The second one is
expensive to produce so they often lock that up in a site player to
prevent copying.  Others allow one to download it.

Finale is preferred.  I use Sibelius.  It is better suited to orchestral
scoring.  It has a terrible interface, is deuce complex, but once one
gets through that and the terrible documentation, it has an excellent
sample library for rendering so I use it both for giving samples to the
ensembles and for some recording where I need a full orchestral part and
standard midi isn't as rich.  Often I mix the two for richer timbre.

len

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Kay [mailto:mike <at> saxonica.com] 
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 8:16 AM
To: xml-dev <at> lists.xml.org
Subject: Re: [xml-dev] Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable
Internet - XML

On 30/08/2012 13:49, Len Bullard wrote:
> For XML experts, you are a poorly informed bunch.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MusicXML
>
While there are some brave souls pushing MusicXML as a distribution 
format, it hasn't really made a significant impact in that role yet. See

for example http://www.makemusic.com/musicxml/music, which by 
advertising what's available makes it clear that it's not very much. If 
you want a particular score, you are much more likely to find it in PDF 
or in a proprietary format such as Finale or Sibelius.

Len, Amy is right to point out that you are being a little bit arrogant 
this week.

Michael Kay
Saxonica
>
>
> From: Amelia A Lewis [mailto:amyzing <at> talsever.com]
>
> To the best of my knowledge and belief, music is not distributed in a
> form related to an xml technology. Digital restriction management may
> use xml; if so, let's hear something about that technology, and its
> successes and shortcomings. Lawyers may be using xml technology in the
> prosecution of cases; that, too, might be of interest to the
developers
> on the list.
>
> Moral indignation on behalf of those unrighteously deprived of their
> holy profits? Not so much, in my opinion.
>
> Amy!

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Liam R E Quin | 30 Aug 2012 23:53

RE: Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable Internet - XML

On Thu, 2012-08-30 at 08:47 -0500, Len Bullard wrote:
> [...] The quote I sent to Liam
> was a calm response from one of the world's top music producers whose
> name you would recognize.

The higher up, the harder the fall.

The music distribution industry is fighting, and trying to make people
think it's the music industry. Apple, meanwhile, became a top player in
the music distribution almost overnight.

The British coal distribution industry was really dismayed when the
canals were cut, and tried to fight them; the folks with oxen and heavy
carts went out of business. One hundred year later it was the canal
shipping industry that tried to fight the railways. And then in turn the
railways tried to fight the automobile. But none of that was about coal.

It's the distributors tied to selling physical objects who are going to
go away.

There aren't many heavyweights left in the music industry, Len. The
people at the top have to look _up_, not _down_.

Same as the movie industry. Did you know Google Adsense's revenue is
larger than Hollywood box office sales and the computer game industry
combined?

The answer is not in making a young man walk in front of the train of
progress carrying a red flag - he will inevitably get run over.

The answer is not "how do we fight the Web and the computer industry
until they learn to send everything on CDs instead of this awful net
thing."

If we don't yet know the right answer, calling us stupid or irrelevant
won't help us get there.

Let's see a W3C Business Group for tracking music downloads via Web
browsers so that ISPs can pay royalties. You know where the door is.
Stop throwing rotten eggs and come inside.

Liam

--

-- 
Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/

Co-author, "Beginning an Egg Smell"...

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James Fuller | 31 Aug 2012 00:46

Re: Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable Internet - XML

On Thu, Aug 30, 2012 at 11:53 PM, Liam R E Quin <liam <at> w3.org> wrote:
> On Thu, 2012-08-30 at 08:47 -0500, Len Bullard wrote:
>> [...] The quote I sent to Liam
>> was a calm response from one of the world's top music producers whose
>> name you would recognize.
>
> The higher up, the harder the fall.

so very true (and even truer in the UK!).

> The British coal distribution industry was really dismayed when the
> canals were cut, and tried to fight them; the folks with oxen and heavy
> carts went out of business. One hundred year later it was the canal
> shipping industry that tried to fight the railways. And then in turn the
> railways tried to fight the automobile. But none of that was about coal.

nice illustration of how competing concerns play different roles
throughout time,

I think it would be real 'evolution' if somehow we evolve without the
built in concept of 'fight' ... but so is the way of the world.

> It's the distributors tied to selling physical objects who are going to
> go away.

well, Amazon 'same day shipping' may color your thinking here.

> Same as the movie industry. Did you know Google Adsense's revenue is
> larger than Hollywood box office sales and the computer game industry
> combined?

stunning ... did not know this.

> The answer is not "how do we fight the Web and the computer industry
> until they learn to send everything on CDs instead of this awful net
> thing."

the fundamental problem is how we go from 18th century developed
notions in place now and evolve forward, not backwards.

> Let's see a W3C Business Group for tracking music downloads via Web
> browsers so that ISPs can pay royalties. You know where the door is.
> Stop throwing rotten eggs and come inside.

seems reasonable (and I note on topic for the list)

Jim Fuller

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Pete Cordell | 31 Aug 2012 21:01

Re: Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable Internet - XML

[Maybe off topic?]

Original Message From: "Liam R E Quin"

> Let's see a W3C Business Group for tracking music downloads via Web
> browsers so that ISPs can pay royalties. You know where the door is.
> Stop throwing rotten eggs and come inside.

I'd be interested to know if the W3C is a suitable place for this.  For me 
this process would require a large element of cryptography in addition to 
XML.  Would that be within the W3C's scope?

If I were in the music industry and I were to tackle this I would arrange 
for each label (e.g. Sony, EMI etc.) to develop their own software library 
that supported semantics like "<Download-track>15267438326</Download-track>" 
and  "<Play>15267438326</Play>".  These libraries would be responsible to 
storing the music on a system in a secure way, employing encryption and 
striping the data across multiple files and so on.  Possibly limiting the 
lifetime of the data and re-keying from time-to-time etc, maybe even 
changing the algorithms from time to time.

People developing media player applications would subscribe to the label's 
software libraries and link to them with their code.  The label libraries 
would use challenge-response type exchanges to authenticate that the 
relevant media player wrapper is approved to use the label's library at 
startup.

One big use for XML would be in the cataloguing, along the lines of:

<Track>
    <Id>15267438326</Id>
    <Artist>Bee-Gees</Artist>
    <Title>Staying Alive</Title>
</Track>

(Although Artist would probably use an id.)

Presumably someone supplying the music service (along the lines of Spotify) 
would act as a broker between the user and the label.  The broker would have 
an account with both the label and the user.  When the user asked for music 
to be played, the broker would authorise it, and inform the label to charge 
it to the brokers account (using whatever formula was in effect - maybe 
free).  (I'll confess I haven't dug deeply into Michael Hopwood DDex links 
yet!)

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that I think it would require an entire 
architecture rather than a standalone XML vocabulary.  Could the W3C develop 
that sort of thing for either this case, or a similar case in general?

Thanks,

Pete Cordell
Codalogic Ltd
Twitter: http://twitter.com/petecordell
Interface XML to C++ the easy way using C++ XML
data binding to convert XSD schemas to C++ classes.
Visit http://codalogic.com/lmx/ or http://www.xml2cpp.com
for more info

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Liam R E Quin | 31 Aug 2012 21:40

Re: Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable Internet - XML

On Fri, 2012-08-31 at 20:01 +0100, Pete Cordell wrote:
> [Maybe off topic?]
> 
> Original Message From: "Liam R E Quin"
> 
> > Let's see a W3C Business Group for tracking music downloads via Web
> > browsers so that ISPs can pay royalties. You know where the door is.
> > Stop throwing rotten eggs and come inside.
> 
> I'd be interested to know if the W3C is a suitable place for this.  For me 
> this process would require a large element of cryptography in addition to 
> XML.  Would that be within the W3C's scope?

We already have XML Encryption, so I wouldn't preclude it.

I think XML and distribution is on topic.

> If I were in the music industry and I were to tackle this I would arrange 
> for each label (e.g. Sony, EMI etc.) to develop their own software library 
> that supported semantics like "<Download-track>15267438326</Download-track>" 
> and  "<Play>15267438326</Play>".  These libraries would be responsible to 
> storing the music on a system in a secure way, employing encryption and 
> striping the data across multiple files and so on.  Possibly limiting the 
> lifetime of the data and re-keying from time-to-time etc, maybe even 
> changing the algorithms from time to time.

In some countries if you buy something you have a right to keep it, and
to make copies of it for personal or family use.  You have to balance
the rights and needs of the artists and creators, the rights and needs
of the people enjoying the works, and the rights and needs of the people
who provide the service of connecting the artists with the listeners.

For that matter lots of people live out of the range of cell phone
towers or high speed Internet and still listen to music.

You also have to assume that people will break any encryption - it
doesn't even have to be about money as there are people who really enjoy
breaking encryption... but if it _is_ about money then brute force
solutions also have to be considered.

If you sow a thousand wheat seeds and only one hundred grow, you'll
still have enough seeds for another year but you'll be disappointed.

Here in Canada the big labels really fight hard against independent
music and always have. They want to make sure that new bands can't start
up and reduce sales of the formulas. For example, record stores are not
allowed to sort independent record label music in with mainstream
big-label music in the alphabetic section, and yes, they go round
inspecting stores. Put Nine Inch Nails too close to Nirvana and kiss
your store goodbye.

In software licensing it turned out that _telling_ people that the
software is not paid for is often (not always) more effective than
making the software not work unless you pay, because the encryption gets
broken and people use pirated copies. In other words, don't fight a
battle you can't win, but change the battle.

The music industry would need the cooperation of media players - and
soon that will mean basically Web browsers - to display that
information.

> One big use for XML would be in the cataloguing
Today there are "standards" for cataloguing music, but they are really
really sucky and badly done, and get misused. Also, the big record
labels started putting out deliberately mis-tagged and incomplete songs,
so there's a big distrust of the tagging now. (and it never really
worked for classical music because the models were always too
simplistic)

> Presumably someone supplying the music service (along the lines of Spotify) 
> would act as a broker between the user and the label.

I think the labels would do this if they had a fucking clue. Some do,
some don't. Some would rather bomb railway stations than lose the
profits in their canals.

> Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that I think it would require an entire 
> architecture rather than a standalone XML vocabulary.  Could the W3C develop 
> that sort of thing for either this case, or a similar case in general?

I don't know, but if we don't try, an architecture will evolve. One of
the biggest things in the past 15 or 20 years to reduce music piracy was
Apple opening itunes. If you make it easy for people to pay, guess what?
Most (not all) people do pay. And the ones who don't pay often don't
have the money, so it's better for them to hear the music and be able to
pay when they're older, or to tell other people about it.

The same sorts of discussion are happening in other industries too of
course, from stock images to fonts to movies...

Liam

--

-- 
Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/
Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/
Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org freenode/#xml

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Uche Ogbuji | 30 Aug 2012 18:31

Re: Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable Internet - XML

On Thu, Aug 30, 2012 at 6:49 AM, Len Bullard <Len.Bullard <at> ses-i.com> wrote:

For XML experts, you are a poorly informed bunch.

More arrogance from you, Len, who as Amy says, makes a primary trade of heaping scorn on others. Why don't you demonstrate how well informed you are by take your highly-informed philippics to places where they might be on topic. There are plenty of those places, but surely you have no need to be informed of them.

headers

Len Bullard | 30 Aug 2012 19:55

RE: Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable Internet - XML

Uche, the akata wanders where it will.

len

From: Uche Ogbuji [mailto:uche <at> ogbuji.net]
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 11:32 AM
To: Len Bullard
Cc: Amelia A Lewis; xml-dev <at> lists.xml.org
Subject: Re: [xml-dev] Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable Internet - XML

On Thu, Aug 30, 2012 at 6:49 AM, Len Bullard <Len.Bullard <at> ses-i.com> wrote:

For XML experts, you are a poorly informed bunch.

headers

John Walsh | 30 Aug 2012 20:18

Re: Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable Internet - XML

On Aug 30, 2012, at 1:55 PM, Len Bullard <Len.Bullard <at> ses-i.com> wrote:

Uche, the akata wanders where it will.

As does the arrogant buffoon, apparently.

len

headers

Len Bullard | 30 Aug 2012 20:22

RE: Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable Internet - XML

Apparently.

len

From: John Walsh [mailto:jawalsh <at> indiana.edu]
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 1:18 PM
To: xml-dev <at> lists.xml.org
Subject: Re: [xml-dev] Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable Internet - XML

On Aug 30, 2012, at 1:55 PM, Len Bullard <Len.Bullard <at> ses-i.com> wrote:

Uche, the akata wanders where it will.

As does the arrogant buffoon, apparently.

len