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Martin A. Brooks | 1 Jan 2007 18:32
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Re: EU council streaming petition

salsaman <at> xs4all.nl wrote:
> Please forward !
>
> The Council of the EU has a streaming service so that we can watch its
> meetings — but the service can only be accessed by Mac or MS Windows
> users. This is because they employ WMV format for the videos. In the FAQ
> they express a really strange opinion about this: 'The live streaming
> media service of the Council of the European Union can be viewed on
> Microsoft Windows and Macintosh platforms. We cannot support Linux in a
> legal way. So the answer is: No support for Linux.' An online petition has
> been set up to create pressure to convince the EU council to change its
> service to one that is platform independent.

Kindly cease this bollocks. There's _nothing_ stopping you watching the 
stream with many Linux media players. I'm watching some _right now_ 
using VLC for example.

_They_ don't _provide support_ for people not using the approved 
players. This is not the same as saying "you can't use Linux to watch 
the streams", patently you can, I'm doing so right now and there's no 
black helicopters hovering outside my house. Okay their wording isn't 
great, I'll grant you that.

Did you read this on slashdot or something? It sounds like their kind of 
knee-jerk reaction.


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Kristian Rink | 1 Jan 2007 19:50

Re: EU council streaming petition

Martin A. Brooks schrieb:

> Kindly cease this bollocks. There's _nothing_ stopping you watching the
> stream with many Linux media players. I'm watching some _right now_
> using VLC for example.

Being just a calm lurker on this list but also one who already signed
this petition, just my €0.02 on that: Indeed, technically it works. But
it doesn't legally work, because (for what I have seen so far) the
stream uses a proprietary codec. This, in itself, is bad, both given the
fact that Microsoft still are under EC fire because of the
anti-competition thing, and because whatever happens there is paid with
money brought up by European citizen. And maybe just because of that,
bringing up a solution saying "We only support MS-Windows / Macintosh"
to me simply is not acceptable. There are "free" codecs and technologies
available for that, and building the whole streaming thing using
non-discriminatory technology would definitely be possible. In "theory",
every European citizen should be capable of accessing this content, no
matter which operating system, which player, ... (s)he is running. What
about accessing these sources from *BSD? Or OpenSolaris? Or HP-UX, for
that matters?

I am almost sure this petition will not have any meaningful effect, but
I think it's worth at least trying.

Cheers,
Kris

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salsaman | 1 Jan 2007 21:17
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Re: EU council streaming petition

> Martin A. Brooks schrieb:
>
>> Kindly cease this bollocks. There's _nothing_ stopping you watching the
>> stream with many Linux media players. I'm watching some _right now_
>> using VLC for example.
>
> Being just a calm lurker on this list but also one who already signed
> this petition, just my €0.02 on that: Indeed, technically it works. But
> it doesn't legally work, because (for what I have seen so far) the
> stream uses a proprietary codec. This, in itself, is bad, both given the
> fact that Microsoft still are under EC fire because of the
> anti-competition thing, and because whatever happens there is paid with
> money brought up by European citizen. And maybe just because of that,
> bringing up a solution saying "We only support MS-Windows / Macintosh"
> to me simply is not acceptable. There are "free" codecs and technologies
> available for that, and building the whole streaming thing using
> non-discriminatory technology would definitely be possible. In "theory",
> every European citizen should be capable of accessing this content, no
> matter which operating system, which player, ... (s)he is running. What
> about accessing these sources from *BSD? Or OpenSolaris? Or HP-UX, for
> that matters?
>
> I am almost sure this petition will not have any meaningful effect, but
> I think it's worth at least trying.
>
>
> Cheers,
> Kris
>
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Martin A. Brooks | 1 Jan 2007 21:22
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Re: EU council streaming petition

salsaman <at> xs4all.nl wrote:
> Indeed. Or what about people using 64 bit Linux ? Or what about when M$
> create the next version of .wmv, and start suing people for decoding it ?

VLC runs under 64 bit linux, too.  Reverse engineering is perfectly legal.
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Jason Clifford | 1 Jan 2007 22:17
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Re: EU council streaming petition

On Mon, 1 Jan 2007, Martin A. Brooks wrote:

> VLC runs under 64 bit linux, too.  Reverse engineering is perfectly legal.

So those who know how to grab the relevant codecs (which may require 
copyright violation) are OK. What about everyone else? How about those who 
prefer to use Free Software without engaging in potential copyright 
violation?

Jason
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salsaman | 1 Jan 2007 21:41
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Re: EU council streaming petition

>Reverse engineering is perfectly legal.

Try telling that to the authors of Virtual Dub:

http://www.advogato.org/article/101.html

Gabriel.

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salsaman | 1 Jan 2007 21:39
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Re: EU council streaming petition

> salsaman <at> xs4all.nl wrote:
>> Indeed. Or what about people using 64 bit Linux ? Or what about when M$
>> create the next version of .wmv, and start suing people for decoding it
>> ?
>
> VLC runs under 64 bit linux, too.

Then it must be using different decoders than mplayer. FFmpeg uses wine
for its win32 codecs. Those codecs don't work under 64 bit wine.

>Reverse engineering is perfectly legal.

Only until Microsoft uses encryption to encode the files. Then it falls
under DMCA/EUCD laws.

Gabriel.

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Martin A. Brooks | 1 Jan 2007 21:57
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Re: EU council streaming petition

salsaman <at> xs4all.nl wrote:
> Then it must be using different decoders than mplayer. 
>   

Yes.

> Only until Microsoft uses encryption to encode the files. Then it falls
> under DMCA/EUCD laws.
>   

The streams under discussion are not encrypted, so your point is moot.

Bottom line:  you can use open source GPL programs to view these 
streams, no-one is stopping you.  This is a non-story.
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salsaman | 1 Jan 2007 23:20
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Re: EU council streaming petition

> salsaman <at> xs4all.nl wrote:
>> Then it must be using different decoders than mplayer.
>>
>
> Yes.
>
>> Only until Microsoft uses encryption to encode the files. Then it falls
>> under DMCA/EUCD laws.
>>
>
> The streams under discussion are not encrypted,

Yet.

How easy would it be for M$ to add encryption to the next version of .wmv,
such that only Vista/Windows Media Player could legally de-crypt it ?

It would be technically very easy. Just a matter of marketing it as "Virus
secure" or some such rubbish.

It would then be illegal to decrypt it.

The .wmv format is also patented. Same problem as with .mp3, .gif and jpeg.

See also the Virtual Dub article I posted a link to. Microsoft could
threaten VLC with a lawsuit any time they wanted.

Or they could simply change the next version of .wmv to be incompatible,
like they do with .doc, and then it would require reverse engineering all
over again.
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Martin A. Brooks | 1 Jan 2007 23:35
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Re: EU council streaming petition

salsaman <at> xs4all.nl wrote:
> Yet
>   

They're not, nor is there any intention to do so, nor has anyone 
_suggested_ there should be.  Don't base your arguments on "well what 
if...?" scenarios.

> How easy would it be for M$ to add encryption to the next version of .wmv,
> such that only Vista/Windows Media Player could legally de-crypt it ?
>   

About this easy   ---->     <----

I don't follow your point.

The streams are not encrypted, there is not indication they are going to 
be.  Your argument is _stupid_.  Had the article said "From Jan 1st 
2007, all streams of EU meetings will only be viewable by MS Media 
Player version X running on Windows Vista and we'll back that up with 
some crypto voodoo" then, yes, your argument would perhaps  be valid.  
They haven't, it isn't.

> It would then be illegal to decrypt it.
>   

Nope. Fair use, despite what our American friends may have you believe. 
The DMCA does not apply in Europe.

> The .wmv format is also patented. Same problem as with .mp3, .gif and jpeg.
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Jason Clifford | 2 Jan 2007 12:30
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Re: EU council streaming petition

On Mon, 1 Jan 2007, Martin A. Brooks wrote:

> Nope. Fair use, despite what our American friends may have you believe. 
> The DMCA does not apply in Europe.

I'm afraid you are wrong. There is no such thing as a fair use exemption 
in the UK - that is a US specific thing.

> Microsoft can threaten anyone with a lawsuit any time they want, as can I.

But you don't have a history of bringing the suits and you don't have 
billions in the bank with which to tie people up in courts they cannot 
afford.

MS exec's have already started indicating that they will soon look to 
using their patent portfolio in the war against Free Software competition.

Jason
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Christopher Hunter | 2 Jan 2007 20:17
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Re: EU council streaming petition

On Tue, 2007-01-02 at 11:30 +0000, Jason Clifford wrote:

> I'm afraid you are wrong. There is no such thing as a fair use exemption 
> in the UK - that is a US specific thing.

Correct, but apparently there's a bill before this session of parliament
to restore the "fair use" exemption.  I tried looking it up (I heard it
reported, and the MP involved interviewed on the BBC a few weeks ago),
but can't find it right now.

> MS exec's have already started indicating that they will soon look to 
> using their patent portfolio in the war against Free Software competition.

The first move in this direction seems to be their buying into Suse /
Novell in an effort to give them some leverage.

Chris


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Jason Clifford | 2 Jan 2007 21:36
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Re: EU council streaming petition

On Tue, 2 Jan 2007, Christopher Hunter wrote:

> Correct, but apparently there's a bill before this session of parliament
> to restore the "fair use" exemption.  I tried looking it up (I heard it
> reported, and the MP involved interviewed on the BBC a few weeks ago),
> but can't find it right now.

There has never neem a "fair use" exemption in the UK. Getting one will be 
a battle.

> > MS exec's have already started indicating that they will soon look to 
> > using their patent portfolio in the war against Free Software competition.
> 
> The first move in this direction seems to be their buying into Suse /
> Novell in an effort to give them some leverage.

Looks like it may be.

Jason
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Martin A. Brooks | 2 Jan 2007 23:09
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Re: EU council streaming petition

Jason Clifford wrote:
> There has never neem a "fair use" exemption in the UK. Getting one will be 
> a battle.
>   

http://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/copyright/p09_fair_use

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Jason Clifford | 3 Jan 2007 11:02
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Re: EU council streaming petition

On Tue, 2 Jan 2007, Martin A. Brooks wrote:

> > There has never neem a "fair use" exemption in the UK. Getting one will be 
> > a battle.
> 
> http://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/copyright/p09_fair_use

Fair dealing comes nowhere close to fair use as our american cousins 
understand it and most discussions seem to assume it does.

Fair dealing is far more limited in scope, has lots more restrictions and 
results in a state where reasonable behaviour is illegal - indeed due to 
recent changed in copyright law it is now a criminal offence.

Jason
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Alain Williams | 3 Jan 2007 01:35
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Re: EU council streaming petition

On Tue, Jan 02, 2007 at 10:09:42PM +0000, Martin A. Brooks wrote:
> Jason Clifford wrote:
> >There has never neem a "fair use" exemption in the UK. Getting one will be 
> >a battle.
> >  
> 
> http://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/copyright/p09_fair_use

But most people understand ''fair use'' to be what it is in the USA, in particular
the right to copy a record/tape/CD/... that you own to some other medium. This is
what we have never had in the UK and is what Jason was referring to. Andrew Gowers'
report (released at the start of December) suggested that that should be allowed:

	http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/independent_reviews/gowers_review_intellectual_property/gowersreview_index.cfm

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Alain Williams | 2 Jan 2007 12:53
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Re: EU council streaming petition

On Tue, Jan 02, 2007 at 11:30:07AM +0000, Jason Clifford wrote:
> On Mon, 1 Jan 2007, Martin A. Brooks wrote:
> 
> > Nope. Fair use, despite what our American friends may have you believe. 
> > The DMCA does not apply in Europe.
> 
> I'm afraid you are wrong. There is no such thing as a fair use exemption 
> in the UK - that is a US specific thing.

The UK may go some way to something like that. The report into UK copyright
talked about allowing a few things ... however the Govt (of all colours)
have a reputation for not doing the bits of white papers that they don't like.

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John G Walker | 2 Jan 2007 14:24
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Re: EU council streaming petition


On Tue, 2 Jan 2007 11:53:06 +0000 Alain Williams <addw <at> phcomp.co.uk>
wrote:

> On Tue, Jan 02, 2007 at 11:30:07AM +0000, Jason Clifford wrote:
> > On Mon, 1 Jan 2007, Martin A. Brooks wrote:
> > 
> > > Nope. Fair use, despite what our American friends may have you
> > > believe. The DMCA does not apply in Europe.
> > 
> > I'm afraid you are wrong. There is no such thing as a fair use
> > exemption in the UK - that is a US specific thing.
> 
> The UK may go some way to something like that. The report into UK
> copyright talked about allowing a few things ... however the Govt (of
> all colours) have a reputation for not doing the bits of white papers
> that they don't like.
> 

But they also implement bits that it would be politically embarrassing
to ignore. Petitioning is necessary (but not sufficient) to make
omissions politically embarrassing, 

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Jason Clifford | 2 Jan 2007 12:57
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Re: EU council streaming petition

On Tue, 2 Jan 2007, Alain Williams wrote:

> The UK may go some way to something like that. The report into UK copyright
> talked about allowing a few things ... however the Govt (of all colours)
> have a reputation for not doing the bits of white papers that they don't like.

And the current govt. have a history of listening very closely to the 
media industry who, due to the govt.'s use of populist media figures for 
self-promo, have a very strong voice and lots of money (not that I'm 
suggesting that you can buy what you want from phony tony - I don't need 
to).

Papers mean nothing however as the law is currently otherwise.

Jason
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salsaman | 2 Jan 2007 15:39
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Re: EU council streaming petition

> On Tue, 2 Jan 2007, Alain Williams wrote:
>
>> The UK may go some way to something like that. The report into UK
>> copyright
>> talked about allowing a few things ... however the Govt (of all colours)
>> have a reputation for not doing the bits of white papers that they don't
>> like.
>
> And the current govt. have a history of listening very closely to the
> media industry who, due to the govt.'s use of populist media figures for
> self-promo, have a very strong voice and lots of money (not that I'm
> suggesting that you can buy what you want from phony tony - I don't need
> to).

It's no coincidence that Bill Gates will be doing the official launch of
Vista from the Scottish parliament.

Gabriel.

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Christopher Hunter | 2 Jan 2007 20:19
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Re: EU council streaming petition

On Tue, 2007-01-02 at 15:39 +0100, salsaman <at> xs4all.nl wrote:

> It's no coincidence that Bill Gates will be doing the official launch of
> Vista from the Scottish parliament.

It's also no coincidence that Gates is a regular house guest of the
Blairs.

Chris


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salsaman | 3 Jan 2007 02:21
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Re: EU council streaming petition

> On Tue, 2007-01-02 at 15:39 +0100, salsaman <at> xs4all.nl wrote:
>
>> It's no coincidence that Bill Gates will be doing the official launch of
>> Vista from the Scottish parliament.
>
> It's also no coincidence that Gates is a regular house guest of the
> Blairs.
>
> Chris

I think you mean "Sir" Bill Gates.

Gabriel.

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John Hearns | 2 Jan 2007 19:49
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Re: EU council streaming petition

salsaman <at> xs4all.nl wrote:

> 
> It's no coincidence that Bill Gates will be doing the official launch of
> Vista from the Scottish parliament.
> 
> 
The Scotsman says it will be streamed in the Internet using the 
Parliament's facilities :
"It means that a PC user can sit and watch the entire proceedings 
wherever they are located, with translation into five different foreign 
languages - French, Spanish, German, Italian and Russian."

On the Parliament's website, www.holyrood.tv these are in WMV format.....

To the barricades, mes amis!
Load Jack McConnell onto the tumbril.
Sean Connery for President!
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John Hearns | 2 Jan 2007 19:30
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Re: EU council streaming petition

salsaman <at> xs4all.nl wrote:

> 
> It's no coincidence that Bill Gates will be doing the official launch of
> Vista from the Scottish parliament.
> 

Pick yer Windae, Billy Boy!

(that is a very, very funny remark if you imagine my accent.
People from Glasgow(*) will invite you to pick your window in the pub, 
before being thrown through it. A Billy Boy is someone of the Protestant 
faith, from King William of Orange)

Deliciously relevant, the Scottish Parliament opened three years late, 
at a cost of £431 million on an original budget of £40 million.

And a 12 foot wooden beam still came loose and nearly fell on the MPs.

(*) I'm a Bankie. Someone who comes from Clydebank. Not a Glaswegian.
Got anything tae say aboot that?
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Richard Jones | 3 Jan 2007 09:13
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Re: EU council streaming petition

On Tue, Jan 02, 2007 at 06:30:35PM +0000, John Hearns wrote:
> And a 12 foot wooden beam still came loose and nearly fell on the MPs.

Sounds like an opportunity missed ...

Rich.

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paul@ma1.se | 1 Jan 2007 19:59
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Re: EU council streaming petition

John Hearns wrote:
> salsaman <at> xs4all.nl wrote:
> 
>>
>> It's no coincidence that Bill Gates will be doing the official launch of
>> Vista from the Scottish parliament.
>>
> 
> Pick yer Windae, Billy Boy!
> 

Gosh, Bill has bought Scotland now, well I didn't know that. Heard M$ 
turnover was greater than some countries but thats taking matters a bit 
too far ;o)

regards

Paul Lee
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Geo. | 2 Jan 2007 19:46

Re: EU council streaming petition

On Tuesday 02 January 2007 18:30, John Hearns wrote:
> salsaman <at> xs4all.nl wrote:
> > It's no coincidence that Bill Gates will be doing the official launch of
> > Vista from the Scottish parliament.
>
> Pick yer Windae, Billy Boy!
>
>
> (that is a very, very funny remark if you imagine my accent.
> People from Glasgow(*) will invite you to pick your window in the pub,
> before being thrown through it. A Billy Boy is someone of the Protestant
> faith, from King William of Orange)
>
>
> Deliciously relevant, the Scottish Parliament opened three years late,
> at a cost of £431 million on an original budget of £40 million.
>
> And a 12 foot wooden beam still came loose and nearly fell on the MPs.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> (*) I'm a Bankie. Someone who comes from Clydebank. Not a Glaswegian.
> Got anything tae say aboot that?

nae Laddie eel tak a wee dram wid yee anyday
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salsaman | 2 Jan 2007 01:10
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Re: EU council streaming petition

> salsaman <at> xs4all.nl wrote:
>> Yet
>>
>
> They're not, nor is there any intention to do so, nor has anyone
> _suggested_ there should be.  Don't base your arguments on "well what
> if...?" scenarios.

This is Microsoft we are talking about. A company who does anything in its
power (legal or illegal) to keep its monopoly position. Unfortunately we
must consider "what if" situations and be prepared for them.

>
>> How easy would it be for M$ to add encryption to the next version of
>> .wmv,
>> such that only Vista/Windows Media Player could legally de-crypt it ?
>>
>
> About this easy   ---->     <----
>
> I don't follow your point.
>
> The streams are not encrypted, there is not indication they are going to
> be.

Why wouldn't Microsoft do such a thing ? If they thought it would hinder
rival software players without causing problems for themselves, they would
do it.

> Your argument is _stupid_.  Had the article said "From Jan 1st
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Matthew East | 1 Jan 2007 23:50
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Re: EU council streaming petition


Hi,

* Martin A. Brooks:
> salsaman <at> xs4all.nl wrote:
>> Yet
>>   
> 
> They're not, nor is there any intention to do so, nor has anyone
> _suggested_ there should be.  Don't base your arguments on "well what
> if...?" scenarios.

You've just demonstrated a fundamental lack of understanding on what
free software is about. The whole point is that we (subscribers to this
list?) who believe in free software do so because we believe that we
should have the right to control our computer, rather than relying on
the whim of a company which produces a particular product.

So, free software as a doctrine is based on a "well what if...?" scenario.

This has been pointed out already elsewhere on the thread, so I get the
feeling I might be feeding the troll with this (rare) post, but still.

Matt
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Martin A. Brooks | 2 Jan 2007 00:09
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Re: EU council streaming petition

Matthew East wrote:
>> ey're not, nor is there any intention to do so, nor has anyone
>> _suggested_ there should be.  Don't base your arguments on "well what
>> if...?" scenarios.
>>     
>
> You've just demonstrated a fundamental lack of understanding on what
> free software is about. The whole point is that we (subscribers to this
> list?) who believe in free software do so because we believe that we
> should have the right to control our computer, rather than relying on
> the whim of a company which produces a particular product.

We're not talking about software. We're talking about an objection to 
publicly funded AV streams only being available in a disagreeable 
format.  One that's perfectly decodeable on the platform in question.

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Kristian Rink | 2 Jan 2007 06:12

Re: EU council streaming petition

Martin A. Brooks schrieb:

> We're not talking about software. We're talking about an objection to
> publicly funded AV streams only being available in a disagreeable
> format.  One that's perfectly decodeable on the platform in question.
> 

As "e-Government" starts to gain speed, I see more and more governments
around here placing documents on their web site using, say, *.doc or
*.xls documents - of course, this is something you "might" be able to
perfectly work with using OpenOffice.org and friends, but you can't be
sure of that as there still are minor incompatibilities. There also are
governmental web sites in Germany that require you to run some MSIE
variant to access them - surely you can come over most of these things
using some tool to switch your browser identification, and you see that
most of the site works. Does _all_ of it work? Will it _always_ be there
for you whenever you need it, using a platform that is not "officially"
supported?

In most of these cases, I guess you're at risk of suddenly using access
to information important to you because some small thing has changed,
say, the codec used in the video streaming, the version of MS Office to
save those documents, ... . The point is that IMHO public institutions
should be "educated" to pay awareness to those platform differences by
providing information stored in an accessible, non-discriminatory way.
There are options to do so, and I would say they're not more difficult
to use than "proprietary" ones. But we need to tell people that we
demand this accessibility. As long as they tend to provide information
in a "proprietary" format and we merrily mess around using our tools to
access these information, nothing is likely to change. To make a
(Continue reading)

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Alain Williams | 2 Jan 2007 11:10
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Re: EU council streaming petition

On Tue, Jan 02, 2007 at 06:12:30AM +0100, Kristian Rink wrote:
> Martin A. Brooks schrieb:
> 
> > We're not talking about software. We're talking about an objection to
> > publicly funded AV streams only being available in a disagreeable
> > format.  One that's perfectly decodeable on the platform in question.
> > 
> 
> As "e-Government" starts to gain speed, I see more and more governments
> around here placing documents on their web site using, say, *.doc or
> *.xls documents - of course, this is something you "might" be able to
> perfectly work with using OpenOffice.org and friends, but you can't be
> sure of that as there still are minor incompatibilities. There also are

The weapon that might be usable against these sites is the disability access
legislation.

> governmental web sites in Germany that require you to run some MSIE
> variant to access them - surely you can come over most of these things
> using some tool to switch your browser identification, and you see that
> most of the site works. Does _all_ of it work? Will it _always_ be there
> for you whenever you need it, using a platform that is not "officially"
> supported?

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Martin A. Brooks | 2 Jan 2007 07:38
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Re: EU council streaming petition

Kristian Rink wrote:
> access these information, nothing is likely to change. To make a
> difference, our only option is to express the fact that by choice we are
> using a different platform and that, talking about public interests, we
> demand to have legal, full, guaranteed access to these information using
> the platform of our choice. Everything else is a mistake IMO

Now that's an excellent argument, and I would have cheerfully signed a 
petition asking for that, assuming I haven't already.

A better target for this would be another publically funded body, the 
BBC.  For one they've already shown the technical will and ability to do 
this: they made certain live radio streams available as Ogg Vorbis.

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Russell Howe | 4 Jan 2007 02:01
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Re: EU council streaming petition

On Tue, Jan 02, 2007 at 06:38:22AM +0000, Martin A. Brooks wrote:
> A better target for this would be another publically funded body, the 
> BBC.  For one they've already shown the technical will and ability to do 
> this: they made certain live radio streams available as Ogg Vorbis.

Not for a while, unless I'm missing the current location - see
http://support.bbc.co.uk/ogg/

"Unfortunately the BBC decided not to pursue development and testing of
Ogg Vorbis streaming. There are currently no plans to resume this at a
later date."

As for the thread, WMV/ASF is a poor choice of container format for public
information, and since the CODECs are likely one of the WMV and WMA
family, again a poor choice of encoding IMHO.

Unfortunately, the problem they face is that whilst Ogg, XviD, Speex,
etc are all free, open codecs, they are not installed & available by
default on the vast majority of client devices.

So I can understand their dilemma (if they even got as far as thinking
along these lines):

a) Do we make our content accessible to all, using open formats, but
requiring most users to go and install additional decoding software
(perhaps meaning we have to go and package appropriate software and
distribute it, just to make life easy for the people who don't know/want
to know about digital media formats)?

or b) Do we make the content work for pretty much everyone, even though
(Continue reading)

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Chris Bell | 4 Jan 2007 12:41
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Re: EU council streaming petition

On Thu 04 Jan, Russell Howe wrote:

> 
> Saying they can't legally support Linux is (I hope!) just a website
> copy-writer misunderstanding the issues involved and choosing poor
> wording. I'd like to think I would expect better of the EC, but being
> the behemoth bureaucracy that it is, perhaps it's all we can ask for to
> even get a statement at all?
> 
   No harm in trying, contact the BBC and make your suggestions.

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Chris Bell | 2 Jan 2007 10:46
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Re: EU council streaming petition

On Tue 02 Jan, Martin A. Brooks wrote:
> 

> 
> A better target for this would be another publically funded body, the 
> BBC.  For one they've already shown the technical will and ability to do 
> this: they made certain live radio streams available as Ogg Vorbis.
> 
> 
   To a large extent you are preaching to the converted, since BBC research
department has been developing Open Source software, and a very high
proportion of BBC employees run Linux themselves.

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salsaman | 2 Jan 2007 15:33
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Re: EU council streaming petition

> On Tue 02 Jan, Martin A. Brooks wrote:
>>
>
>>
>> A better target for this would be another publically funded body, the
>> BBC.  For one they've already shown the technical will and ability to do
>> this: they made certain live radio streams available as Ogg Vorbis.
>>
>>
>    To a large extent you are preaching to the converted, since BBC
> research
> department has been developing Open Source software, and a very high
> proportion of BBC employees run Linux themselves.
>
> --
> Chris Bell

If you have "inside information", perhaps you can answer the following:

So a) why did they remove the vorbis streams ? The official excuse was
"technical problems". What technical problems ?

b) Why did they never reply to my email telling them two years ago that
LiVES was now (and is probably still the only video editor in existence to
be) capable of encoding to their own Dirac format ? There is not even a
mention of it on their Dirac page...

Gabriel.
http://lives.sourceforge.net
(Continue reading)

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Chris Bell | 3 Jan 2007 04:42
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Re: EU council streaming petition

On Tue 02 Jan, salsaman <at> xs4all.nl wrote:
> 

> 
> If you have "inside information", perhaps you can answer the following:
> 

   Apologies for the slow reply, (problems with internet access appear to be
resolved).
   There is a very big difference between official management policy and the
wishes of staff, especially when the governors are selected by the British
government and there are rumours that various departments are likely to be
"privatised" ASAP.
   I understand that staff are concerned that projects that are currently
under development are likely to be sold off to, and become the total
property of, the purchaser, so they have done their best to attract external
development "assistance" so that they are not purely BBC projects.

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Alain Williams | 2 Jan 2007 11:12
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Re: EU council streaming petition

On Tue, Jan 02, 2007 at 09:46:32AM +0000, Chris Bell wrote:

>    To a large extent you are preaching to the converted, since BBC research
> department has been developing Open Source software, and a very high
> proportion of BBC employees run Linux themselves.

Maybe the BBC technical people do, what about the journalists, programme makers, ... ?

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Chris Bell | 2 Jan 2007 12:10
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Re: EU council streaming petition

On Tue 02 Jan, Alain Williams wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 02, 2007 at 09:46:32AM +0000, Chris Bell wrote:
> 
> >    To a large extent you are preaching to the converted, since BBC research
> > department has been developing Open Source software, and a very high
> > proportion of BBC employees run Linux themselves.
> 
> Maybe the BBC technical people do, what about the journalists, programme makers, ... ?
> 
   Many are now independant contractors, not BBC employees. It is then down
to whoever hands out the contracts to specify how they should work. The BBC
can commission programmes, or purchase them ready-made, then discover that
the contractor has other agreements, perhaps even to supply similar material
to another organisation under a different set of conditions.
   Administration effort is already far greater than when almost everything
was done "in house", partly in finding suitable contractors that are
available to do the work, and partly in second-guessing requirements and
costs.

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Kristian Rink | 2 Jan 2007 10:51

Re: EU council streaming petition

Chris Bell schrieb:

>    To a large extent you are preaching to the converted, since BBC research
> department has been developing Open Source software, and a very high
> proportion of BBC employees run Linux themselves.

Cool. I didn't know about that (even if I was aware of the OGG videos
they provide). Perhaps communicating landmarks like this to, in example,
the EC folks could be a starting point. Maybe they just don't know any
better - like most of the systems people in public institutions I had to
deal with the last decade... :/

Cheers,
Kris

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salsaman | 2 Jan 2007 15:35
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Re: EU council streaming petition

> Chris Bell schrieb:
>
>>    To a large extent you are preaching to the converted, since BBC
>> research
>> department has been developing Open Source software, and a very high
>> proportion of BBC employees run Linux themselves.
>
> Cool. I didn't know about that (even if I was aware of the OGG videos
> they provide). Perhaps communicating landmarks like this to, in example,
> the EC folks could be a starting point. Maybe they just don't know any
> better - like most of the systems people in public institutions I had to
> deal with the last decade... :/
>
> Cheers,
> Kris

And yet, they feel themselves sufficiently qualified to try to push
through software patents via a backdoor. Strange is it not ?

Gabriel.
http://lives.sourceforge.net

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Kristian Rink | 2 Jan 2007 15:48

Re: EU council streaming petition

salsaman <at> xs4all.nl schrieb:

> And yet, they feel themselves sufficiently qualified to try to push
> through software patents via a backdoor. Strange is it not ?

Oh yeah, it is. But I guess these are two different kinds of people:

The software patent folks mainly seem to be patent lawyers who want to
have "old-world" law applied to new technologies, no matter how
ridiculous this might turn out to be in the end.

Public IT guys, however, are _different_. Had to deal with
administrators of small and medium cities around here, and what I learnt
this way was pretty, well, "amazing":

- Most of these folks obviously got in touch with computing during the
DOS age and then and now learnt to hate Microsoft (because of their
broken software) yet to embrace it (because there obviously was no other
option).

- More than once I heard things like "Microsoft invented the internet to
sell more copies of Windows 98 that comes with the Internet browser and
the Mail application". In this world of thoughts, the idea of relying
upon MS Exchange as the server thought of as being the "original e-mail
server implementation" seems just logical (no matter how strange this
seems to anyone else).

- Overally, quite a bunch of these people still see Microsoft as the
sole bringer of innovation, thus everyone else either is a copycat or
even stealing MS intellectual property. This is really bad.
(Continue reading)

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salsaman | 2 Jan 2007 15:55
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Re: EU council streaming petition

> salsaman <at> xs4all.nl schrieb:
>
>> And yet, they feel themselves sufficiently qualified to try to push
>> through software patents via a backdoor. Strange is it not ?
>
> Oh yeah, it is. But I guess these are two different kinds of people:
>
> The software patent folks mainly seem to be patent lawyers who want to
> have "old-world" law applied to new technologies, no matter how
> ridiculous this might turn out to be in the end.
>
> Public IT guys, however, are _different_. Had to deal with
> administrators of small and medium cities around here, and what I learnt
> this way was pretty, well, "amazing":
>
> - Most of these folks obviously got in touch with computing during the
> DOS age and then and now learnt to hate Microsoft (because of their
> broken software) yet to embrace it (because there obviously was no other
> option).
>
> - More than once I heard things like "Microsoft invented the internet to
> sell more copies of Windows 98 that comes with the Internet browser and
> the Mail application". In this world of thoughts, the idea of relying
> upon MS Exchange as the server thought of as being the "original e-mail
> server implementation" seems just logical (no matter how strange this
> seems to anyone else).
>
> - Overally, quite a bunch of these people still see Microsoft as the
> sole bringer of innovation, thus everyone else either is a copycat or
> even stealing MS intellectual property. This is really bad.
(Continue reading)

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Chris Bell | 3 Jan 2007 04:49
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Re: EU council streaming petition

On Tue 02 Jan, salsaman <at> xs4all.nl wrote:
> 

> 
> 
> Funny how other countries seem to "get it" though, and the UK .gov doesn't,
> 
> e.g Germany, France, Netherlands all rolling out Linux/Free Software.
> 
> Gabriel.
> 
> 
   UK education is steered by the UK government, who have their own
individual brand of knowledge about things technical.

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Kristian Rink | 2 Jan 2007 16:01

Re: EU council streaming petition

salsaman <at> xs4all.nl schrieb:

> Funny how other countries seem to "get it" though, and the UK .gov doesn't, 
> e.g Germany, France, Netherlands all rolling out Linux/Free Software.

About Germany, I think it depends on the very place and attitude of
people. Of course, there are landmark projects like the LiMux migration
in Munich, but, at the same time, still once in a while you read about
another government of a city or a federal state being "proud to sign an
exclusive contract" with Microsoft in order to get "quality software" at
more "attractive pricing and licensing terms" (whatever those might be).

And, even worse, it's the same about schools... :(

Cheers,
Kris

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John G Walker | 2 Jan 2007 00:20
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Re: EU council streaming petition


On Mon, 01 Jan 2007 23:09:26 +0000 "Martin A. Brooks"
<martin <at> hinterlands.org> wrote:

> Matthew East wrote:
> >> ey're not, nor is there any intention to do so, nor has anyone
> >> _suggested_ there should be.  Don't base your arguments on "well
> >> what if...?" scenarios.
> >>     
> >
> > You've just demonstrated a fundamental lack of understanding on what
> > free software is about. The whole point is that we (subscribers to
> > this list?) who believe in free software do so because we believe
> > that we should have the right to control our computer, rather than
> > relying on the whim of a company which produces a particular
> > product.
> 
> We're not talking about software. We're talking about an objection to 
> publicly funded AV streams only being available in a disagreeable 
> format.  One that's perfectly decodeable on the platform in question.
> 

That's an inaccurate formulation. The last sentence should read "One
that's - by chance - perfectly decodeable on the platform in question."

The phrase "by chance" is important. I think, from my reading of the
thread so far, that people are upset because it's not readable by
intention. That's the principle involved, not whether or not we've been
lucky on this occasion and how long our luck will last,
(Continue reading)

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Christopher Hunter | 2 Jan 2007 06:51
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Re: EU council streaming petition

On Mon, 2007-01-01 at 23:20 +0000, John G Walker wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 01 Jan 2007 23:09:26 +0000 "Martin A. Brooks"
> <martin <at> hinterlands.org> wrote:
>  
> > We're not talking about software. We're talking about an objection to 
> > publicly funded AV streams only being available in a disagreeable 
> > format.  One that's perfectly decodeable on the platform in question.
> > 
> 
> That's an inaccurate formulation. The last sentence should read "One
> that's - by chance - perfectly decodeable on the platform in question."
> 
> The phrase "by chance" is important. I think, from my reading of the
> thread so far, that people are upset because it's not readable by
> intention. That's the principle involved, not whether or not we've been
> lucky on this occasion and how long our luck will last,

That's exactly right.  It probably won't be long before MS start
charging for each use of their Media Player - "pay-per-use" is
Microsoft's ultimate aim.  The stream may be "free", but the software to
watch it will be expensive to use.  

If the EU sneak through their version of DMCA (as they seem intent on
doing) there will be no legal way for European users of other than
"approved" operating systems and software to view such streams.
Americans are already in this situation - which is why their distros
have all the codecs stripped from them by default!

Chris
(Continue reading)

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Alain Williams | 2 Jan 2007 10:58
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Re: EU council streaming petition

On Tue, Jan 02, 2007 at 05:51:48AM +0000, Christopher Hunter wrote:

> That's exactly right.  It probably won't be long before MS start
> charging for each use of their Media Player - "pay-per-use" is
> Microsoft's ultimate aim.  The stream may be "free", but the software to
> watch it will be expensive to use.  

Not so sure, there are 2 'pay per use' scenarios:

1/ pay-per-use of the s/ware. Money goes to the s/ware vendor. I don't
   see this happening. What I suspect is that the s/ware to *generate* the
   format will cost lots of $$, but that to view it will be free.
2/ pay-per-view, you need to pay 10p to view things. The money goes to
   the content generator (who probably has paid much as per (1)).

I suspect that we will get (1) and some (2).

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salsaman | 1 Jan 2007 21:14
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Re: EU council streaming petition

> Martin A. Brooks schrieb:
>
>> Kindly cease this bollocks. There's _nothing_ stopping you watching the
>> stream with many Linux media players. I'm watching some _right now_
>> using VLC for example.
>
> Being just a calm lurker on this list but also one who already signed
> this petition, just my €0.02 on that: Indeed, technically it works. But
> it doesn't legally work, because (for what I have seen so far) the
> stream uses a proprietary codec. This, in itself, is bad, both given the
> fact that Microsoft still are under EC fire because of the
> anti-competition thing, and because whatever happens there is paid with
> money brought up by European citizen. And maybe just because of that,
> bringing up a solution saying "We only support MS-Windows / Macintosh"
> to me simply is not acceptable. There are "free" codecs and technologies
> available for that, and building the whole streaming thing using
> non-discriminatory technology would definitely be possible. In "theory",
> every European citizen should be capable of accessing this content, no
> matter which operating system, which player, ... (s)he is running. What
> about accessing these sources from *BSD? Or OpenSolaris? Or HP-UX, for
> that matters?
>
> I am almost sure this petition will not have any meaningful effect, but
> I think it's worth at least trying.
>
>
> Cheers,
> Kris
>
(Continue reading)

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