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Jason Clifford | 14 May 2007 04:38
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List back

After much delay I can finally say the mailing lists are back online.

Sorry for the delay.

Jason
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Khusro Jaleel | 14 May 2007 14:41
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Re: List back

Yay! I was hoping the lists will be back soon ... but it got me back into the chatrooms too! :-)

Thanks, Jason

Khusro

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John G Walker | 14 May 2007 10:38
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Re: List back


On Mon, 14 May 2007 03:38:26 +0100 (BST) Jason Clifford
<jason <at> ukfsn.org> wrote:

> After much delay I can finally say the mailing lists are back online.
> 
> Sorry for the delay.
> 
> Jason

Thanks for getting it back up and running.

And thanks to Martin for the temporary list,

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Martin A. Brooks | 14 May 2007 11:13
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Re: List back

John G Walker wrote:
> And thanks to Martin for the temporary list,

My pleasure.  As promised, the temporary list has now been deleted.
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Henrik Morsing | 14 May 2007 11:47

Re: List back


Martin A. Brooks said:
> John G Walker wrote:
>> And thanks to Martin for the temporary list,
>
> My pleasure.  As promised, the temporary list has now been deleted.

Temporary list?

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Martin A. Brooks | 14 May 2007 12:04
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Re: List back

Henrik Morsing wrote:
>> My pleasure.  As promised, the temporary list has now been deleted.
>>     
>
> Temporary list?
>   

I spun up a temporary GLLUG list, and sent an invite to every address 
that had posted to GLLUG this year.
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Henrik Morsing | 14 May 2007 12:15

Re: List back


Martin A. Brooks said:
> Henrik Morsing wrote:
>>
>> Temporary list?
>>
>
> I spun up a temporary GLLUG list, and sent an invite to every address
> that had posted to GLLUG this year.

I'm pretty sure I have posted to the list this year. There must have been
a bug in your script.

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Martin A. Brooks | 14 May 2007 12:18
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Re: List back

Henrik Morsing wrote:
> I'm pretty sure I have posted to the list this year. There must have been
> a bug in your script.
>   

martin <at> myth:~/scripts$ grep -i henrik gllugsubs.txt
henrik <at> morsing.cc

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Paul Rayner | 14 May 2007 13:27

Re: List back

On 14 May 2007, at 11:18, Martin A. Brooks wrote:

> Henrik Morsing wrote:
>> I'm pretty sure I have posted to the list this year. There must  
>> have been
>> a bug in your script.
>
> martin <at> myth:~/scripts$ grep -i henrik gllugsubs.txt
> henrik <at> morsing.cc

I didn't get anything either (unless it got filtered to junk  
somehow). I last posted on 17th Feb.

Oh well, on the bright side, the lack of a list to read got me back  
on IRC :-)

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Caroline Ford | 14 May 2007 21:35

Re: List back

On Mon, 2007-05-14 at 12:27 +0100, Paul Rayner wrote:
> On 14 May 2007, at 11:18, Martin A. Brooks wrote:
> 
> > Henrik Morsing wrote:
> >> I'm pretty sure I have posted to the list this year. There must  
> >> have been
> >> a bug in your script.
> >
> > martin <at> myth:~/scripts$ grep -i henrik gllugsubs.txt
> > henrik <at> morsing.cc
> 
> I didn't get anything either (unless it got filtered to junk  
> somehow). I last posted on 17th Feb.
> 
> Oh well, on the bright side, the lack of a list to read got me back  
> on IRC :-)

I've just found the invite to the temp list. Googlemail had decided it
was spam and not sent it to me. Prior to this point I'd no idea it
didn't deliver by POP3 anything it flagged up as spam..

I guess I should log into my account occasionally..

Caroline

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John G Walker | 15 May 2007 00:13
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Re: List back


On Mon, 14 May 2007 20:35:43 +0100 Caroline Ford
<caroline.ford.work <at> googlemail.com> wrote:

> I've just found the invite to the temp list. Googlemail had decided it
> was spam and not sent it to me. Prior to this point I'd no idea it
> didn't deliver by POP3 anything it flagged up as spam.

Interesting. How does Googlemail decide what is spam and what not?

Bogofilter gave that particular message on my PC a spamicity of
5.62658e-08 (ie barely any chance that the message was spam).

I <3 Bayesian spam filters! :)

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Caroline Ford | 15 May 2007 02:04

Re: List back

On Mon, 2007-05-14 at 23:13 +0100, John G Walker wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 14 May 2007 20:35:43 +0100 Caroline Ford
> <caroline.ford.work <at> googlemail.com> wrote:
> 
> > I've just found the invite to the temp list. Googlemail had decided it
> > was spam and not sent it to me. Prior to this point I'd no idea it
> > didn't deliver by POP3 anything it flagged up as spam.
> 
> Interesting. How does Googlemail decide what is spam and what not?
> 
> Bogofilter gave that particular message on my PC a spamicity of
> 5.62658e-08 (ie barely any chance that the message was spam).
> 
> I <3 Bayesian spam filters! :)
> 
> -- 
>  All the best,
>  John
"innovative spam-filtering mechanisms"

"Superior spam protection using innovative Google technology"

Not a clue..

Caroline

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Stephen Nelson-Smith | 14 May 2007 13:51
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Re: List back

On 5/14/07, Paul Rayner <Paul.Rayner <at> ylemsolutions.com> wrote:
> On 14 May 2007, at 11:18, Martin A. Brooks wrote:
>
> > Henrik Morsing wrote:
> >> I'm pretty sure I have posted to the list this year. There must
> >> have been
> >> a bug in your script.
> >
> > martin <at> myth:~/scripts$ grep -i henrik gllugsubs.txt
> > henrik <at> morsing.cc
>
> I didn't get anything either (unless it got filtered to junk
> somehow). I last posted on 17th Feb.

Likewise, and I've definitely posted this year.

S.
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Martin A. Brooks | 14 May 2007 13:58
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Re: List back

Stephen Nelson-Smith wrote:
> On 5/14/07, Paul Rayner <Paul.Rayner <at> ylemsolutions.com> wrote:
>   
>> I didn't get anything either (unless it got filtered to junk
>> somehow). I last posted on 17th Feb.
>>     
>
> Likewise, and I've definitely posted this year.
>   

Sucks to be both of you, it seems.   I'll refund every single penny you 
paid. :)
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John G Walker | 14 May 2007 14:19
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Re: List back


On Mon, 14 May 2007 12:58:23 +0100 "Martin A. Brooks"
<martin <at> hinterlands.org> wrote:

> Stephen Nelson-Smith wrote:
> > On 5/14/07, Paul Rayner <Paul.Rayner <at> ylemsolutions.com> wrote:
> >   
> >> I didn't get anything either (unless it got filtered to junk
> >> somehow). I last posted on 17th Feb.
> >>     
> >
> > Likewise, and I've definitely posted this year.
> >   
> 
> Sucks to be both of you, it seems.   I'll refund every single penny
> you paid. :)

And I'm sorry I mentioned this now :)

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Dick Turpin | 14 May 2007 14:03
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Re: List back

Martin A. Brooks wrote:

> Sucks to be both of you, it seems.   I'll refund every single penny you 
> paid. :)

Don't do that, you'll need them 50p's to keep putting in the meter 
otherwise the list will go down again ;-)

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Henrik Morsing | 14 May 2007 12:16

Re: List back


Henrik Morsing said:
>
> I'm pretty sure I have posted to the list this year. There must have been
> a bug in your script.

Sorry, just checked and my last post was on the 29th of Dec. :)

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michael enoma aghayere | 14 May 2007 10:33
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Re: List back

On 14/05/07, Jason Clifford <jason <at> ukfsn.org> wrote:
> After much delay I can finally say the mailing lists are back online.
Hi Jason,

Thanks for plugging us back into the matrix.
Do we know exactly what resulted in the downtime and are there
measures in place to perhaps prevent it happening in future?
Part agenda for the group's next meeting?

Regards,

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Jason Clifford | 14 May 2007 14:20
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Re: List back

On Mon, 14 May 2007, michael enoma aghayere wrote:

> Thanks for plugging us back into the matrix. Do we know exactly what
> resulted in the downtime and are there measures in place to perhaps
> prevent it happening in future? Part agenda for the group's next
> meeting?

The problem arose because the power supply in the server did not survive 
the failure of a PDU.

I had intended to get the server back online within a couple of days but a 
combination of things (largely my being unable to physically get into 
Docklands to effect the fix due to family commitments) I had been unable 
to get it done until last night.

I have decided that the server the lists are currently on should be 
completely replaced with shiney new hardware so I am now looking at the 
finance considerations for this.

I'd appreciate if anyone can recommend a good supplier of servers that are 
not too power hungry.

Jason
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Andy Smith | 14 May 2007 19:53
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Re: List back

On Mon, May 14, 2007 at 01:20:29PM +0100, Jason Clifford wrote:
> I'd appreciate if anyone can recommend a good supplier of servers that are 
> not too power hungry.

While we're on the subject what do people think is the CPU with the
best performance:Watt ratio at the moment? (for doing actual hosting
on, so that excludes the system-on-chip and embedded stuff really)

I suppose the choice is between the Opteron and the dual / quad
core Xeons.

Cheers,
Andy

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Russell Howe | 21 May 2007 03:06
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Re: List back

On Mon, May 14, 2007 at 05:53:11PM +0000, Andy Smith wrote:
> On Mon, May 14, 2007 at 01:20:29PM +0100, Jason Clifford wrote:
> > I'd appreciate if anyone can recommend a good supplier of servers that are 
> > not too power hungry.
> 
> While we're on the subject what do people think is the CPU with the
> best performance:Watt ratio at the moment? (for doing actual hosting
> on, so that excludes the system-on-chip and embedded stuff really)
> 
> I suppose the choice is between the Opteron and the dual / quad
> core Xeons.

I'd imagine a mobile chip would be pretty good, especially if your
workload is very spikey. Unfortunately, I don't think they come in SMP
flavours (although you can get mobile versions of the dual core chips).
Motherboard choices are likely to be limited, I guess...

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Mike Brodbelt | 15 May 2007 08:32
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Re: List back

Andy Smith wrote:

> I suppose the choice is between the Opteron and the dual / quad
> core Xeons.

IMHO the Intel stuff is the best right now - the Core 2 Duo stuff is
very nice. AMD may well one up Intel with their next chip rev, but for
now, Intel is king of the hill...

Mike

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Stephen Nelson-Smith | 16 May 2007 12:31
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Re: List back

On 5/15/07, Mike Brodbelt <mike <at> coruscant.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Andy Smith wrote:
>
> > I suppose the choice is between the Opteron and the dual / quad
> > core Xeons.
>
> IMHO the Intel stuff is the best right now - the Core 2 Duo stuff is
> very nice. AMD may well one up Intel with their next chip rev, but for
> now, Intel is king of the hill...

Could you explain / quantify this?  Is this based on measurements? or
reviews?  or personal experience?

> Mike

Thanks,

S.
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paul@ma1.se | 14 May 2007 18:51
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Re: List back

Jason Clifford wrote:
> On Mon, 14 May 2007, michael enoma aghayere wrote:
> 
> I'd appreciate if anyone can recommend a good supplier of servers that are 
> not too power hungry.
> 
> Jason

I think I'd concur with Mikes server recommendations a few posts back, - 
the dual Core Xeon HP's with the dinky drives.

http://tinyurl.com/2t276e

Had the opportunity to play with some of these a few weeks back with a 
view to replacing some of my old Compaq kit.

I powered up one of my old Compaq DL380's in IP House recently
with its four clunking great SCSI's. The lights of the data centre 
appearing to dim noticeably dimming as it came on line - not a good 
sign! ;o)

I can probably donate some older Compaq gear but they may not be too 
viable now from a power consumption point of view given restrictions in 
Redbus now. I've a few DL360's kicking around but they have a tendency 
to pop PSU's.

regards

Paul Lee
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Jason Clifford | 14 May 2007 19:48
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Re: List back

On Mon, 14 May 2007, paul <at> ma1.se wrote:

> I think I'd concur with Mikes server recommendations a few posts back, - 
> the dual Core Xeon HP's with the dinky drives.

While they look interesting I think I'll have to pass on the HP kit. They 
are just too expensive to be viable so I think I'll just go with something 
from DNUK.

> I can probably donate some older Compaq gear but they may not be too
> viable now from a power consumption point of view given restrictions in
> Redbus now. I've a few DL360's kicking around but they have a tendency
> to pop PSU's.

I'm not going to use older kit as I want to avoid the potential for 
problems such as I have had to deal with over the past couple of weeks.

Jason
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Chris Bell | 14 May 2007 20:08
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Re: List back

On Mon 14 May, Jason Clifford wrote:
> 

> I'm not going to use older kit as I want to avoid the potential for 
> problems such as I have had to deal with over the past couple of weeks.
> 
> Jason

   What kind of spec do you really need? Does it need to be a very high
spec, or just reliable?

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Jason Clifford | 14 May 2007 20:52
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Re: List back

On Mon, 14 May 2007, Chris Bell wrote:

>    What kind of spec do you really need? Does it need to be a very high
> spec, or just reliable?

Good point - my question was kind of meaningless without that information.

I'm looking at buying a server to be an IMAP/POP3 service so it needs lots 
of storage and to be able to handle lots of sessions.  That one is fairly 
easy as it's just a matter of a reasonably decent storage subsystem.

I have a spare poweredge box (dual Xeon, 4GB RAM) which I will use for the 
email filtering and mailing list server. I know this will waste watts 
however I think it's worth it as I already have the server and only need 
to install disks into it.

Jason
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Anthony Newman | 14 May 2007 19:28

Re: List back

paul <at> ma1.se wrote:
> 
> I powered up one of my old Compaq DL380's in IP House recently
> with its four clunking great SCSI's. The lights of the data centre 
> appearing to dim noticeably dimming as it came on line - not a good 
> sign! ;o)
> 
> I can probably donate some older Compaq gear but they may not be too 
> viable now from a power consumption point of view given restrictions in 
> Redbus now. I've a few DL360's kicking around but they have a tendency 
> to pop PSU's.

I have a sneaking suspicion that unless you had some very high spec old
kit that the modern servers have a much higher power density. A new
DL3xx machine will have no problem chewing down the best part of 2A from
the mains supply, which these days represents 1/4 - 1/6 of an entire
rack's allocation in oversubscribed London (assuming it is destined for
a DC).

An old DL380 would still be capable of generating many hundreds of
thousands of mails a day given suitable upstream bandwidth, so if it is
intended for just a mailing list server anything less than 10 years old
would be over-specified.

Just my £0.02 :)

Ant
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Russell Howe | 21 May 2007 03:03
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Re: List back

On Mon, May 14, 2007 at 06:28:50PM +0100, Anthony Newman wrote:
> An old DL380 would still be capable of generating many hundreds of
> thousands of mails a day given suitable upstream bandwidth, so if it is
> intended for just a mailing list server anything less than 10 years old
> would be over-specified.

Our company mail server (yes, singular :() is a Proliant 3000 - two P2
450s with 192M of RAM.

It's not very fast, but it handles IMAP, POP3 and SMTP, all with TLS or
SSL for our ~150 users. Most users send mail via it as well, using
SMTP+TLS+AUTH.

Spam & virus scanning is farmed out to another machine though - no way
it could cope with clamav and spamassassin with 192M of RAM.

Having just replaced our biggest SPOF (which /was/ failing, and causing
problems - we didn't just replace it because it was a SPOF), the mail
server is next on the hitlist, especially since it's started locking up
randomly of late :(

So, if anyone'd like a Proliant 3000 (or a 1000 - we have one sitting
around doing nothing!), I might have one going spare in a month or two's
time. It will hold a very heavy door open quite successfully, and makes
for quite good ballast at the bottom of a rack.

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paul@ma1.se | 14 May 2007 20:02
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Re: List back

Anthony Newman wrote:
> paul <at> ma1.se wrote:
>> I powered up one of my old Compaq DL380's in IP House recently
>> with its four clunking great SCSI's. The lights of the data centre 
>> appearing to dim noticeably dimming as it came on line - not a good 
>> sign! ;o)
>>
>> I can probably donate some older Compaq gear but they may not be too 
>> viable now from a power consumption point of view given restrictions in 
>> Redbus now. I've a few DL360's kicking around but they have a tendency 
>> to pop PSU's.
> 
> I have a sneaking suspicion that unless you had some very high spec old
> kit that the modern servers have a much higher power density. A new
> DL3xx machine will have no problem chewing down the best part of 2A from
> the mains supply, which these days represents 1/4 - 1/6 of an entire
> rack's allocation in oversubscribed London (assuming it is destined for
> a DC).

Probably correct, I bought some power meters from Maplin, and tried it 
on the dual processor Compaq DL360 (2 x p3'S, 2 X scsi) idling in the 
rack with little disk activity chews 0.39A or about 80 watts. I'll try a 
meter on a DL380 later.

My DL380's at the DC are at least partitioned into 10 VPS's however I 
would not go as far as to say they are doing the job of 10 hardware 
servers :/

regards

Paul Lee

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Alex Smith | 14 May 2007 20:59

Re: List back

>Probably correct, I bought some power meters from Maplin, and tried it 
>on the dual processor Compaq DL360 (2 x p3'S, 2 X scsi) idling in the 
>rack with little disk activity chews 0.39A or about 80 watts. I'll try a 
>meter on a DL380 later.

Ouch, I have recently played with some PE860's from Dell and despite me not
normally liking Dell the power usage isn't half bad (For Dell anyways), Dual
Core Xeon, 2GB Ram and 2 SATA HDD's at reasonable load it was drawing ~0.3A.
Not show stopping by any mean's but does mean you can get a fair few in a
16A rack (Assuming Redbus will still give you one ;).

Other than that, I haven't really seen anything decent power wise aside from
a few of our customer's SuperMicro barebone's servers which can do ~0.25A
upto .3A

Any of the other PE machine's I have used just eat power at a rate of
Amp's...

Rgd's

Alex

P.S. Jason, I'm curious, which building in Dockland's are you in? I'm based
in Redbus Merdian & Sov 5 days a week :)

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Jason Clifford | 15 May 2007 01:31
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Re: List back

On Mon, 14 May 2007, Alex Smith wrote:

> P.S. Jason, I'm curious, which building in Dockland's are you in? I'm
> based in Redbus Merdian & Sov 5 days a week :)

The servers are at Meridian Gate however I very rarely am - and I like it 
that way hence the desire to replace the older servers that are pretty 
much at EOL now.

Jason
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Mike Brodbelt | 14 May 2007 14:35
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Re: List back

Jason Clifford wrote:
> I have decided that the server the lists are currently on should be 
> completely replaced with shiney new hardware so I am now looking at the 
> finance considerations for this.
> 
> I'd appreciate if anyone can recommend a good supplier of servers that are 
> not too power hungry.

I've been quite impressed with some of the HP stuff we've used recently.
A DL350 G5 chassis can take two dual-core CPUs, up to 32Gb RAM, up to 6
SAS disks, with hardware RAID (Compaq controller with full Linux
support) and redundant hotplug PSUs. The whole lot sits in 1u, and power
consumption/compute horsepower isn't too bad. The base comes with 1 CPU,
 1 PSU, 1Gb RAM and no disks, but right now they have a deal that means
you can get a second CPU free, and they're not too overpriced, for what
they are:-

http://tinyurl.com/2t276e

The little 2.5" SAS disks help on the power front, and the systems run
Debian really very nicely. They also have HPs iLo, which is kinda crap*,
but it's something I suppose.

Mike

* When you buy a server with an iLo, and it turns out they want you to
buy an additional license to enable all the features of said iLo, I
start to object....
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- Tethys | 14 May 2007 16:18
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On 5/14/07, Mike Brodbelt <mike <at> coruscant.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>They also have HPs iLo, which is kinda crap*, but it's something I suppose.

Coming from a Sun background, I was horrified at the junk that's being
passed off as a "lights out manager" in the PC world, and in
particular, in Compaq/HP machines. Yes, it works... sometimes... if
you happen to be sitting in front of a suitable client, with
sufficient bandwidth. You can forget about fixing a problem with your
mobile phone, though, which I used to do occasionally with our Sun kit
when out and about.

Tet

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Russell Howe | 21 May 2007 02:56
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On Mon, May 14, 2007 at 03:18:48PM +0100, - Tethys wrote:
> On 5/14/07, Mike Brodbelt <mike <at> coruscant.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> >They also have HPs iLo, which is kinda crap*, but it's something I suppose.
> 
> Coming from a Sun background, I was horrified at the junk that's being
> passed off as a "lights out manager" in the PC world, and in
> particular, in Compaq/HP machines. Yes, it works... sometimes... if
> you happen to be sitting in front of a suitable client, with
> sufficient bandwidth. You can forget about fixing a problem with your
> mobile phone, though, which I used to do occasionally with our Sun kit
> when out and about.

You /can/ SSH into iLO 2 (which is what the DL320 G5 has, and probably
older boxes too), and get a serial console which isn't too bad. You can
also configure all the BIOS options from there too, although the
interface is poor and the help screens on the CLI are, um, poor to say
the least. Not something you want to be using every day, but useful if
you're in a tight spot.

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Mike Brodbelt | 15 May 2007 08:34
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- Tethys wrote:
> On 5/14/07, Mike Brodbelt <mike <at> coruscant.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> 
>> They also have HPs iLo, which is kinda crap*, but it's something I suppose.
> 
> Coming from a Sun background, I was horrified at the junk that's being
> passed off as a "lights out manager" in the PC world, and in
> particular, in Compaq/HP machines.

Absolutely - give me a Sun LOM any day. I've been pretty unimpressed
with what's on offer, but the assumption that you're going to be running
a silly GUI on your headless server is to blame for a lot of the idiocy.

Mike
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Ken Smith | 14 May 2007 08:38

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Well done Jason - I was really missing it!

:-)

Ken

Jason Clifford wrote:
> After much delay I can finally say the mailing lists are back online.
>
> Sorry for the delay.
>
> Jason
>   

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